# The tree of liberty needs to be watered with the blood of school children **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [February 15, 2018, 2:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tree-of-liberty-needs-to-be-watered-with-the-blood-of-school-children/808854 "2018-02-15T02:32:10Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 21
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2018, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tree-of-liberty-needs-to-be-watered-with-the-blood-of-school-children/808854/401 "2018-02-20T13:46:10Z")
_Defender of America’s most notorious pedophile gets upset when children speak out on the horrors of the world in which they are growing_ should not be a surprising development, right? ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2018, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tree-of-liberty-needs-to-be-watered-with-the-blood-of-school-children/808854/402 "2018-02-20T13:59:42Z")
> [@JohnT](#): > > _Defender of America’s most notorious pedophile gets upset when children speak out on the horrors of the world in which they are growing_ should not be a surprising development, right? Right you are. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2018, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tree-of-liberty-needs-to-be-watered-with-the-blood-of-school-children/808854/403 "2018-02-20T14:04:08Z")
> [@bobot](#): > > Lots of assault rifles floating around in 1960? Do you actually write this dumb shit with a straight face? There was a time, when you could get a BAR or a Thompson (machine guns). > **[The Most Effective Portable Fire Arm In Existence (1925)](https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2013/12/02/effective-portable-fire-arm-existence-1925/)** > > By the mid-1920s Auto Ordnance had only sold a few thousand of their .45 ACP Thompson submachine guns to military and law enforcement organizations.To help increase sales they started marketing them to private business owners.This above... [![](https://www.thefirearmblog.com/media/2024/05/15/14070100/the-most-effective-portable-fire-arm-in-existence-1925.jpg?size=720x845&nocrop=1) ](https://www.thefirearmblog.com/media/2024/05/15/14070100/the-most-effective-portable-fire-arm-in-existence-1925.jpg?size=720x845&nocrop=1) Added on edit: That was during the “good old days” when everything was great. Uh huh. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2018, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tree-of-liberty-needs-to-be-watered-with-the-blood-of-school-children/808854/404 "2018-02-20T14:52:50Z")
As part of the ‘thoughts and prayers’ discussion, [here’s a lovely tweet](https://twitter.com/IParkerSterling/status/965269320669548544) showing a bunch of Marco Rubio’s ‘thoughts and prayers’ tweets in the wake of shootings over the past half-dozen years. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2018, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tree-of-liberty-needs-to-be-watered-with-the-blood-of-school-children/808854/405 "2018-02-20T15:00:00Z")
> [@Eonwe](#): > > That’s exactly the point, however. It seems that massive increase in the number of guns tracks to a massive increase in the number of gun deaths. The fact that it’s not a linear correlation is kind of irrelevant. > > And it’s shown in that article that gun deaths _don’t_ track to mental health, race, video game use, etc etc. If you have evidence that something else has a meaningful correlation to gun deaths that is observable and quantifiable, present it. > > You’re the one who said “other countries have lots of guns” . . . which is false. Either in total or per capita, the US has ~7 times as many guns as the next closest country, and twice as many per capita than the next closest country. > > Saying “other countries have lots of guns” in comparison to the US is not true. The US is a major outlier. To me, “lots of guns” means that guns are reasonably common amongst the population. It’s not an absolute measurement, wherein “lots of guns” somehow means “the number of guns in the United States”. 22% of Canadian households own guns. That’s lots of guns. Their gun homicide rate is 0.38 per 100,000. Between 32 and 43% of American households own guns. That’s lots of guns (though, plainly, Americans collectively own far more guns, the total number seems irrelevant compared to the ownership rate). Our gun homicide rate is 3.6 per 100,000. If 10% more Canadian households were issued guns, would their homicide rate increase by nearly 10 times? I’m going to say no. There’s more at work here than the existence of guns - though, of course, one symptom of our sick and violent culture is the hoarding and exaltation of guns. > [@k9bfriender](#): > > Okay, lets use some switzerland laws, then. > > Buying guns: > Transfering guns: > Buying ammo: > Carrying guns: > I could go for those laws. Is that what you were looking for? Nothing unreasonable there. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2018, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tree-of-liberty-needs-to-be-watered-with-the-blood-of-school-children/808854/406 "2018-02-20T15:13:04Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > Have you seen my analogy about how posters like you operate? No. > [@](#): > > It’s the one where I posit a claim that school bombings never occurred in 1960 but then some moron comes charging in with a cite that says someone set off a cherry bomb in a classroom in 1954 and acts like he proved me wrong. I do not recall comparing a real bombing to someone setting off a firecracker. Perhaps you could direct me to that post. That is, incidentally, not a correct analogy to what I did post. But hey, would you like some references to people scoffing at “thoughts and prayers” before 2017? Okay! Here’s your proof. > **[Nonreligious Questions](https://www.patheos.com/nonreligious-questions/)** > > Whether you’ve been turned off by religion in the past or have a question about one of the world’s religions, check out what Patheos has to offer. > **[After San Bernardino Shooting, “Thoughts and Prayers” Anger Is Wrong](https://www.phillymag.com/news/2015/12/03/thoughts-prayers-san-bernardino-shooting/)** > > Mathis: For religious people, prayer is not the opposite of action — it's the beginning. > **[The NRA Spent More Than $1 Million in 2014 for Republicans' "Thoughts and...](https://www.mic.com/articles/129654/the-nra-spent-more-than-1-million-in-2014-for-republicans-thoughts-and-prayers)** > > Within minutes of reports that a social services center in San Bernardino, California, had been the target of the nation's 355th mass shooting of 2015, the Twitter feeds and Facebook timelines of senators and representatives flooded with expressions… > **[Politicians Face Backlash Over 'Thoughts and Prayers' Tweets](https://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/san-bernardino-shooting/thoughts-prayers-backlash-after-san-bernardino-shooting-n473336)** > > A wave of tweets about “thoughts and prayers” after the San Bernardino shooting prompted an angry backlash over lack of action on America’s gun laws. > **[Shooting massacre survivors: ‘Thoughts and prayers’ aren’t enough](https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/shooting-massacre-survivors-thoughts-and-prayers-arent-enough/2013/09/21/b7e35878-2232-11e3-a358-1144dee636dd_story.html?utm_term=.1170ca3446e8)** > > In 25 summer rallies, victims and families of Newtown, Aurora and elsewhere share stories, and scars. > **[Presidential Response To Mass Shootings Yields Few Answers](https://www.huffpost.com/entry/mass-shootings-reactions_n_2302971)** > > Presidential Response To Mass Shootings Yields Few Answers > **[Thoughts and Prayers](https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/thoughts-and-prayers)** > > Thoughts and Prayers is an expression of sympathy typically offered toward the victims of large-scale disasters and tragedies. Online, the catchphrase has I found these in two minutes. ---
**Author:** ![Norse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a9adbd/32.png) [@Norse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Norse)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2018, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tree-of-liberty-needs-to-be-watered-with-the-blood-of-school-children/808854/407 "2018-02-20T16:18:12Z")
You can also look at the Nordic countries, which come in on third place for guns per capita, and which have gun homicide rates from 0.1 and 0.3 per 100000. You have to apply for a license, which you’ll only get if you are a hunter or a sports shooter. Handguns are much more heavily regulated than long guns, and self defense is never a valid reason for obtaining a gun license. Public carry is not allowed for private citizens, and unless you’re on the range or the hunting ground, the weapon should be packed in a case. Semi-autos are generally prohibited, except for a short list of approved hunting weapons, or if you’re active in dynamic sports shooting. Over here, gun owners regard a gun as a tool. A tool intended for breaking or punching holes in targets, or for bringing home food. We just don’t have the US obsession about “self defense”. Shooting bad guys is a job for the police, and then only when all the other available tools have been proven useless. Sent from my E5823 using Tapatalk ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2018, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tree-of-liberty-needs-to-be-watered-with-the-blood-of-school-children/808854/408 "2018-02-20T16:21:37Z")
And the Nordic countries are, if anything, more liberal than the US. ( **Starving Artist** blames the mass shootings on the liberal shift since the 1960s.) ---
**Author:** ![Derleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Derleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Derleth)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2018, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tree-of-liberty-needs-to-be-watered-with-the-blood-of-school-children/808854/409 "2018-02-20T17:01:35Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > And the Nordic countries are, if anything, more liberal than the US. ( **Starving Artist** blames the mass shootings on the liberal shift since the 1960s.) Whiter, too. But I’m certain **Starving Artist** never views the world through that lens, or evaluates countries based on that criterion. ---
**Author:** ![elbows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b3f665/32.png) [@elbows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elbows)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2018, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tree-of-liberty-needs-to-be-watered-with-the-blood-of-school-children/808854/410 "2018-02-20T17:06:34Z")
Those are not unlike the Canadian laws, but, I think the sticking point will always be, as you touched on, “It makes me feel safe!”, isn’t enough justification for you to get a gun. You’ll just have to find another way to deal with your insecurities besides sporting a gun. Many nations successfully navigate these waters, their citizens seeing the wisdom in such a strategy. But I get the feeling that ain’t ever gonna fly in America. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2018, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tree-of-liberty-needs-to-be-watered-with-the-blood-of-school-children/808854/411 "2018-02-20T17:28:58Z")
> [@elbows](#): > > Those are not unlike the Canadian laws, but, I think the sticking point will always be, as you touched on, “It makes me feel safe!”, isn’t enough justification for you to get a gun. I do not believe a Canadian needs to provide a justification for getting a PAL. (The license to get a firearm.) Frankly, asking for a personal justification is kind of silly, anyway: RCMP: So what’s your justification for wanting a gun? APPLICANT: Uhhh… can I say to make me feel safe? RCMP: That’s not on the approved list, no. APPLICANT: How about exacting a horrible and bloody revenge on my enemies? RCMP: Are you Liam Neeson? APPLICANT: No. RCMP: Sorry, no. APPLICANT: There’s special rules for Liam Neeson? RCMP: Shouldn’t there be? APPLICANT: Good point. Okay, uh… I’m obsessed with guns? RCMP: Definitely not. APPLICANT: Can I say it’s because I want to kill lots of animals? RCMP: Yup, that’s on the list. APPLICANT: Well, then, I want to shoot animals. RCMP: You’re good. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2018, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tree-of-liberty-needs-to-be-watered-with-the-blood-of-school-children/808854/412 "2018-02-20T17:33:56Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > 22% of Canadian households own guns. That’s lots of guns. Their gun homicide rate is 0.38 per 100,000. > > Between 32 and 43% of American households own guns. That’s lots of guns ( **though, plainly, Americans collectively own far more guns, the total number seems irrelevant compared to the ownership rate** ). Our gun homicide rate is 3.6 per 100,000. I don’t think the total number should be shrugged off as irrelevant. If 22% of Canadian households own guns, but most of them only own one gun either used for home protection or shooting vermin, that tells us their overall relationship with firearms is pragmatic. Not recreational or consumeristic. I think the problem in the US is that a large chunk of the population own guns to complete themselves somehow and _we treat this as totally normal_. So a broke, delinquent-history having, would-be-homeless-if-not-for-the-kindness-of-strangers guy like Cruz can own 5 guns, and instead of asking whether this a reasonable thing, people don’t give it a second thought. So keeping up with the total number guns makes just as much sense to me as quantifying gun-owning households. If we wanted to profile (and intervene against) people who most likely to commit mass shootings, something tells me we should start looking at people who own 5 or more guns. Not people with mental illness. ---
**Author:** ![Norse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a9adbd/32.png) [@Norse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Norse)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2018, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tree-of-liberty-needs-to-be-watered-with-the-blood-of-school-children/808854/413 "2018-02-20T17:48:41Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > Frankly, asking for a personal justification is kind of silly, anyway: > > RCMP: So what’s your justification for wanting a gun? > APPLICANT: Uhhh… can I say to make me feel safe? > RCMP: That’s not on the approved list, no. > APPLICANT: How about exacting a horrible and bloody revenge on my enemies? > RCMP: Are you Liam Neeson? > APPLICANT: No. > RCMP: Sorry, no. > APPLICANT: There’s special rules for Liam Neeson? > RCMP: Shouldn’t there be? > APPLICANT: Good point. Okay, uh… I’m obsessed with guns? > RCMP: Definitely not. > APPLICANT: Can I say it’s because I want to kill lots of animals? > RCMP: Yup, that’s on the list. > APPLICANT: Well, then, I want to shoot animals. > RCMP: You’re good. Over here, it would rather be: Norwegian Police Service: So what’s your justification for wanting a gun? APPLICANT: Uhhh… can I say to make me feel safe? NPS: That’s not on the approved list, no. _makes a note in applicant’s file_ APPLICANT: Okay, uh… I’m obsessed with guns? NPS: Definitely not. APPLICANT: How about exacting a horrible and bloody revenge on my enemies? NPS:…!!? _makes a note that applicant should never be issued a gun license, and put under observation_ I think we’re done here, sir. ANOTHER APPLICANT: Can I say it’s because I want to kill lots of animals? NPS: Yup, that’s on the list. But I can’t see that you’ve attached a copy of your national hunting permit, so no. AA: Well, then, I want to shoot at targets. NPS: Are you a member of a sports shooting organisation which has a program where the gun type you’re applying for is suitable? AA: Sure, I’m sorry I forgot to attach a copy of my membership card. NPS: OK, we’ll run a background check on you for violent crimes or mental health issues. If everything looks good, you’ll get your purchase license in about a month’s time. Sent from my E5823 using Tapatalk ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2018, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tree-of-liberty-needs-to-be-watered-with-the-blood-of-school-children/808854/414 "2018-02-20T17:53:09Z")
> [@Norse](#): > > Over here, it would rather be: > Norwegian Police Service: So what’s your justification for wanting a gun? > APPLICANT: Uhhh… can I say to make me feel safe? > NPS: That’s not on the approved list, no. _makes a note in applicant’s file_ > APPLICANT: Okay, uh… I’m obsessed with guns? > NPS: Definitely not. > APPLICANT: How about exacting a horrible and bloody revenge on my enemies? > NPS:…!!? _makes a note that applicant should never be issued a gun license, and put under observation_ I think we’re done here, sir. I think that even the NPS would make sure it’s not Liam Neeson before making that note. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2018, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tree-of-liberty-needs-to-be-watered-with-the-blood-of-school-children/808854/415 "2018-02-20T18:08:05Z")
Chuck Norris doesn’t need a gun. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2018, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tree-of-liberty-needs-to-be-watered-with-the-blood-of-school-children/808854/416 "2018-02-20T21:01:44Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > i don’t believe anyone is saying “Fuck gun control, accept our thoughts and prayers instead.” The well-established fact that you don’t believe in reality is not relevant to this discussion. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2018, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tree-of-liberty-needs-to-be-watered-with-the-blood-of-school-children/808854/417 "2018-02-20T21:08:48Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > Have you seen my analogy about how posters like you operate? It’s the one where I posit a claim that school bombings never occurred in 1960 but then …somebody posts something like [this](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bath_School_disaster) and makes you look like an abject ignoramus (again): > [@](#): > > The Bath School disaster, sometimes known as the Bath School massacre, was a series of violent attacks perpetrated by Andrew Kehoe on May 18, 1927, in Bath Township, Michigan, which killed 38 elementary schoolchildren and six adults and injured at least 58 other people. Kehoe killed his wife and firebombed his farm, then detonated an explosion in the Bath Consolidated School before committing suicide by detonating a final device in his truck… Obviously the fault of antisocial propaganda from the nickelodeon and the proliferation of violent pinball games… :rolleyes: :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2018, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tree-of-liberty-needs-to-be-watered-with-the-blood-of-school-children/808854/418 "2018-02-20T21:27:41Z")
> [@Steve\_MB](#): > > …somebody posts something like [this](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bath_School_disaster) and makes you look like an abject ignoramus (again): > > Obviously the fault of antisocial propaganda from the nickelodeon and the proliferation of violent pinball games… :rolleyes: :rolleyes: Just some pranksters with cherry bombs. ---
**Author:** ![eulalia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eulalia/32/457_2.png) [@eulalia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eulalia)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2018, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tree-of-liberty-needs-to-be-watered-with-the-blood-of-school-children/808854/419 "2018-02-20T21:28:41Z")
Yeah the counter-culture revolution caused violence in the same way that lack of pirates caused global warming. ---
**Author:** ![bobot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bobot/32/21622_2.png) [@bobot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bobot)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2018, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tree-of-liberty-needs-to-be-watered-with-the-blood-of-school-children/808854/420 "2018-02-20T21:35:20Z")
Hippies like Arlo Guthrie throwing garbage all over the place set a really bad precedent! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tree-of-liberty-needs-to-be-watered-with-the-blood-of-school-children/808854.md?page=20) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tree-of-liberty-needs-to-be-watered-with-the-blood-of-school-children/808854.md?page=22)