# The tree of liberty needs to be watered with the blood of school children **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [February 15, 2018, 2:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tree-of-liberty-needs-to-be-watered-with-the-blood-of-school-children/808854 "2018-02-15T02:32:10Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 22
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2018, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tree-of-liberty-needs-to-be-watered-with-the-blood-of-school-children/808854/421 "2018-02-20T21:39:16Z")
> [@bobot](#): > > Hippies like Arlo Guthrie throwing garbage all over the place set a really bad precedent! Well, and creating a public nuisance. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2018, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tree-of-liberty-needs-to-be-watered-with-the-blood-of-school-children/808854/422 "2018-02-20T22:09:50Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > It was implicit in your statement. No, it certainly wasn’t. > [@Starving Artist](#): > > Otherwise why bring it up? Because it’s true and relevant. > [@Starving Artist](#): > > You certainly wouldn’t be doing your side any favor by admitting what I’ve already stated which is that they skyrocketed starting with the counterculture revolution and have only recently approached pre counterculture levels. That fact doesn’t discredit “my side”, i.e., the side of reality-based liberal principles, in any way. Whatever the manifold causes of the spike in violent crime back when US society started to get significantly more socially liberal in the 1960s, the fact is that our society is now and continues to become far more socially liberal than it was pre-1960s, while at the same time violent crime has returned to pre-1960s levels. I don’t see that phenomenon as any kind of indictment or refutation of reality-based liberal principles whatsoever. > [@Starving Artist](#): > > Well, in the first place these problems haven’t been “fixed” by a long shot. If anything, they’ve been improved, but then they’d been improved during the fifty years leading up to the counterculture revolution too and there’s no reason to think they wouldn’t have continued on that same trajectory and without the tremendous downsides that the kneejerk liberal approach has shackled us with. Fantasizing about what you think or hope **would** have happened if the actual facts of history **hadn’t** happened isn’t a very convincing argument. If you pre-1960s folks were so dilatory and ineffectual in fixing longstanding social injustices that a lot of people got angry and impatient about it, then it’s not surprising they went for a different approach. You weren’t doing your job satisfactorily as moral citizens of a free society, so some of your more radical-minded fellow citizens took that job out of your hands. You should have been working harder to solve the problems back then, instead of just sulking and bitching about it now. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2018, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tree-of-liberty-needs-to-be-watered-with-the-blood-of-school-children/808854/423 "2018-02-21T00:31:48Z")
I’m still waiting for those cites about rising crime in the 1960s… > [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > Born in '48 (and no, 69 is not that old), and was 20 years old when the Grand Idiocy really began to assert itself. So I got to spend plenty of time and have plenty of experiences which inform me as to the realities of life during that time. I never once knew of a woman being spanked, I had several who were relatives, who, even though they were married operated their own businesses, owned their own property and damn well had their own bank accounts. Many women of the era thought they had it so good that they resented the actions of so-called feminists of the time who were thought to be screwing up their good thing. Most of what people believe about that time are either exaggerations of genuine ills or history revisionism taught by professors and others with a left-wing agenda. According the dates then, you were a CHILD in he fifties. So your experience is going to reflect that. Of course your memories are going to be rosy – most people’s are. When I think of the 80s, I don’t think of crack, AIDS, or gang-wars. As for “what your relatives told you”, well, you’re the exact same age as my parents.\* And while most of what they’ve told me about the 50s were, well, stuff that kids went through, I HAVE heard stories from relatives. And trust me, they don’t necessarily reflect your’s. -Pittsburgh was an absolute shithole. Street lamps ran 24/7 because the sky was so dark, due to all the soot and smoke from the mills. My great-aunt told me about how when she went shopping, she’d come home covered in ashes. You had to bring extra clothes with you if you worked downtown. The river was a cesspool and the stench near unbearable. It wasn’t until the 60s that people finally said ENOUGH and started cleaning things up, and strict environmental laws were put into place to stop this. -I mentioned I had an aunt in an abusive marriage. -BOTH of my parents grew up in two bedroom houses. My dad was the oldest of five kids – he had to share a room with four sisters, until he was about 12, and my grandparents finished off the attic, and he could have the room to himself. (And that room was SMALL – I don’t know how they managed it!) My mother still had to share a room with her brother and sister, until her brother joined the army in the sixties. -The only business run by a woman in my family was a speakeasy that my great-grandmother’s sister ran in her basement during Prohibition. She had no other way of making ends meet after her husband died and the stock market crashed. (Prohibition wasn’t repealed until 1932) -Speaking of Prohibition, you want to know WHY people were so eager for it? It wasn’t because of the “demon rum”? A good many of those who supported it were FEMINISTS. Because they saw the horrible effects that alcohol had on the family. Not drugs. Alcohol. Unfortunately, outlawing it made things worse, but if you want to complain about drugs, booze can cause just as much damage. Sometimes even more. In fact, my family is full of drunks. On both sides. (In my dad’s case, BOTH sides of his family!) I still drink, but yeah, that’s one of the legacies of my family tree. -1963 saw the first [MMR vaccine](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MMR_vaccine), and a better one came out in, you guessed it, 1968. Unless you’re one of those nutbags who believe vaccines causes autism, that’s some major to celebrate. Unfortunately, smallpox was not eradicated until the 1970s. Another decade you rail against. -My grandmother lost two brothers as children, one to whooping cough when he was three, one to tetanus when he was seven, after stepping on a nail. One major reason I think people are all “things are so much worse!” is the advent of mass media. You didn’t have 24-hour news, social media, cable, etc. People weren’t as aware of all this shit. That doesn’t mean crap journalism didn’t exist – it always has. It just wasn’t always present. (Also, 1960 was cool for [another reason](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1960_World_Series)) \*I know I mentioned this before, but okay, I’ll grant you that people say “fuck” a lot more nowadays. However, according to my folks, people felt a LOT freer to use the word “nigger” back then. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2018, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tree-of-liberty-needs-to-be-watered-with-the-blood-of-school-children/808854/424 "2018-02-21T02:43:03Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > Well, and creating a public nuisance. and littering ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2018, 5:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tree-of-liberty-needs-to-be-watered-with-the-blood-of-school-children/808854/425 "2018-02-21T05:57:17Z")
> [@John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](#): > > The age to retire with full benefits from Social Security is 66. Average lifespan in America is 78. Sorry, but when your age is located between retired and dead, you’re old. Well, I’m not retired and I’m not dead so I’m afraid the jury’s still out on that little proclamation. Besides, 60 is the new 40, if you haven’t heard, which makes me barely 46. And four years ago when I had the time for it, I was bicycling 15 - 35 miles a day and did a 100 mile charity ride four summers ago on a 42 lb. hybrid bike - the kind you sit up straight to ride - with hills and wind to contend with the whole time too. I still do an hour a day on an exercise bike. Not bad for a 46-year-old, huh? 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2018, 6:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tree-of-liberty-needs-to-be-watered-with-the-blood-of-school-children/808854/426 "2018-02-21T06:06:03Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > Besides, 60 is the new 40, if you haven’t heard, which makes me barely 46. Nothing makes an old person look older than obstinately protesting, “grizzly kitten” style, that they’re not really old at all. Of course it’s perfectly possible (and commendable) to be old and still physically fit, or old and still working. But that doesn’t make you not old. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2018, 6:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tree-of-liberty-needs-to-be-watered-with-the-blood-of-school-children/808854/427 "2018-02-21T06:17:51Z")
As that wise old sage and philosopher Hugh Hefner once observed, until it begins to impair you physically, age is just a state of mind. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2018, 6:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tree-of-liberty-needs-to-be-watered-with-the-blood-of-school-children/808854/428 "2018-02-21T06:20:33Z")
And besides, what’s all this ageist bigotry about my age? Doesn’t that make you people barely a notch above Hitler on the evil scale? Or is ageist bigotry exempt from the usual hysteria you people visit upon everyone else you perceive to be a bigot? ---
**Author:** ![Crazyhorse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crazyhorse/32/31_2.png) [@Crazyhorse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crazyhorse)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2018, 6:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tree-of-liberty-needs-to-be-watered-with-the-blood-of-school-children/808854/429 "2018-02-21T06:24:52Z")
In [this photo](https://ibb.co/eMy0Ax) taken by the Sheriff’s Department many years ago, Sharting Fartist uses the same bike that he rides today to demonstrate how it would have been impossible for him to have molested those three children. ---
**Author:** ![raventhief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/raventhief/32/4_2.png) [@raventhief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raventhief)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2018, 6:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tree-of-liberty-needs-to-be-watered-with-the-blood-of-school-children/808854/430 "2018-02-21T06:29:11Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > And besides, what’s all this ageist bigotry about my age? Doesn’t that make you people barely a notch above Hitler on the evil scale? Or is ageist bigotry exempt from the usual hysteria you people visit upon everyone else you perceive to be a bigot? You discounted the very real experience of the survivors of Parkland based on age. You are hardly one to complain about age discrimination. Eta: if they are too young to have valid opinions, then you are surely too fucking old. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2018, 6:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tree-of-liberty-needs-to-be-watered-with-the-blood-of-school-children/808854/431 "2018-02-21T06:32:11Z")
Nah, I’ve gotten shit about my age on this board since the first day I revealed it. Besides, I didn’t discount their experience, merely their susceptibility to manipulation in the wake of it. ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2018, 6:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tree-of-liberty-needs-to-be-watered-with-the-blood-of-school-children/808854/432 "2018-02-21T06:33:18Z")
Reminder #22,305: Let’s not feed the trolls. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2018, 6:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tree-of-liberty-needs-to-be-watered-with-the-blood-of-school-children/808854/433 "2018-02-21T06:33:28Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > And besides, what’s all this ageist bigotry about my age? Nobody except you is being bigoted about your age: as I noted back in post #376, being old is nothing to be ashamed of. You’re the one who’s acting as though there’s something insulting about using the word “old” to describe somebody a scant year away from threescore and ten. If anyone’s being ageist about this, it’s you. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2018, 6:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tree-of-liberty-needs-to-be-watered-with-the-blood-of-school-children/808854/434 "2018-02-21T06:33:41Z")
And now, sorry, but I got chit to do. I just popped in momentarily to brag on myself and can’t stay all night. Ta. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2018, 6:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tree-of-liberty-needs-to-be-watered-with-the-blood-of-school-children/808854/435 "2018-02-21T06:35:33Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > Besides, I didn’t discount their experience, merely their susceptibility to manipulation in the wake of it. In other words, you tried to argue that they’re too young to have valid opinions of their own about this issue. Ageist. ---
**Author:** ![raventhief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/raventhief/32/4_2.png) [@raventhief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raventhief)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2018, 6:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tree-of-liberty-needs-to-be-watered-with-the-blood-of-school-children/808854/436 "2018-02-21T06:37:34Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > In other words, you tried to argue that they’re too young to have valid opinions of their own about this issue. Ageist. Which is hysterical- in my experience, the older the fool, the more susceptible they tend to be to manipulation. Often couched in terms of false nostalgia. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2018, 6:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tree-of-liberty-needs-to-be-watered-with-the-blood-of-school-children/808854/437 "2018-02-21T06:37:37Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Nobody except you is being bigoted about your age: as I noted back in post #376, being old is nothing to be ashamed of. > > You’re the one who’s acting as though there’s something insulting about using the word “old” to describe somebody a scant year away from threescore and ten. If anyone’s being ageist about this, it’s you. Oops, can’t leave just yet. No one is being bigoted about my age? Bullshit! It’s the very centerpiece of everyone’s attacks on me in defense of my attacks on them for fucking up the country since the sixties. And now I’m out. Ta, once more. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2018, 6:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tree-of-liberty-needs-to-be-watered-with-the-blood-of-school-children/808854/438 "2018-02-21T06:44:55Z")
> [@raventhief](#): > > Which is hysterical- in my experience, the older the fool, the more susceptible they tend to be to manipulation. Often couched in terms of false nostalgia. I’ve been manipulated by no one and have been proudly contemptuous of all this bullshit since it kicked into high gear when I was 20 years old. All the quasi-hippie friends of my friends who became quasi-hippies were afraid of my slip-on loafers and cardigan sweaters because in what passed for brains in their case they found it hard to believe that anyone who would dress in such a manner could be anything but a narc. So funny to watch them get all uptight, paranoid and shit when I came around. And now, it’s been fun but I really do have to go. So do me a solid and refrain from posting horseshit for a few minutes to let me get good and gone, mmkay? Thanks ever so much. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2018, 6:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tree-of-liberty-needs-to-be-watered-with-the-blood-of-school-children/808854/439 "2018-02-21T06:46:10Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > No one is being bigoted about my age? Bullshit! It’s the very centerpiece of everyone’s attacks on me Well, no: the “centerpiece” of everyone’s attacks on you is your habit of spouting fact-free anti-liberal jeremiads and expecting them to be treated as cogent social analyses. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2018, 6:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tree-of-liberty-needs-to-be-watered-with-the-blood-of-school-children/808854/440 "2018-02-21T06:49:48Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > I’ve been manipulated by no one Says the guy who uncritically spews out rightwing-media talking points at every turn, blithely indifferent to all the actual facts that contradict them. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tree-of-liberty-needs-to-be-watered-with-the-blood-of-school-children/808854.md?page=21) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tree-of-liberty-needs-to-be-watered-with-the-blood-of-school-children/808854.md?page=23)