# The tree of liberty needs to be watered with the blood of school children **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [February 15, 2018, 2:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tree-of-liberty-needs-to-be-watered-with-the-blood-of-school-children/808854 "2018-02-15T02:32:10Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2018, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tree-of-liberty-needs-to-be-watered-with-the-blood-of-school-children/808854/81 "2018-02-15T18:24:03Z")
> [@Batano](#): > > A majority of Americans support stricter gun control and an overwhelming percent support background checks on all gun sales. Clearly having the government opose the majority’s will is tyranny. Fighting tyranny is why we have the 2nd ammendment. So the solution is for the majority to take up arms and force congress to act. How is that for irony? Kill for peace 😃 ---
**Author:** ![wguy123](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wguy123/32/3161_2.png) [@wguy123](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wguy123)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2018, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tree-of-liberty-needs-to-be-watered-with-the-blood-of-school-children/808854/82 "2018-02-15T18:24:07Z")
Over on [foxnews.com](http://foxnews.com), they are blaming the FBI for the school shooting. Main headline is “DID FBI DROP THE BALL?” I guess if you can’t blame Muslims, the FBI are about as good a target now for the dipshit right. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2018, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tree-of-liberty-needs-to-be-watered-with-the-blood-of-school-children/808854/83 "2018-02-15T18:25:28Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > The only way to actually solve this problem is to take a lot of guns away from a lot of people, and put a million or so people in jail who aren’t there now. Responding to the voices in your head again, I see. You and they should go start your own thread-I bet it would be entertaining. ---
**Author:** ![Kiber](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kiber/32/317_2.png) [@Kiber](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kiber)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2018, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tree-of-liberty-needs-to-be-watered-with-the-blood-of-school-children/808854/84 "2018-02-15T18:30:51Z")
> [@ivylass](#): > > Not that anyone on this board cares, but take that with a [HUGE grain of salt](https://www.themaven.net/theresurgent/erick-erickson/reality-is-bad-enough-H79v7Ywg00a0zYZr4nJJHQ?utm_content=buffer892a2&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer&full=1). The statistics include a man who shot a bb gun at a bus window and someone shooting a gun off campus at Cal State which struck a building. I care. But then again I’m old enough to remember when people would be shocked and dismayed at just one school shooting in a 6 week period. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2018, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tree-of-liberty-needs-to-be-watered-with-the-blood-of-school-children/808854/85 "2018-02-15T18:33:59Z")
> [@asahi](#): > > I’m in full agreement with reforming gun laws but if gun rights advocates have a point, it’s that the frequency of mass killings is a relatively new and modern phenomenon. Repeat-fire weapons have been around a long time, through periods of increased and decreased regulation. Is it that dangerous ideas spread more easily and are more frequently imitated now? And if so, does this in and of itself justify sweeping gun control legislation? As I said earlier, I think the flaw in this argument is quite simple. There are some nations in the world with sufficient social stability that widespread gun ownership does not seem to cause problems. The U.S. is obviously not one of them. You cannot logically infer from that situation that removing guns from U.S. society would do nothing. Sure, changing society could imrpove things. So could removing guns. At the moment, a country with mass killings every few days is the society that the majority of Americans have chosen. Praying for help reminds me of the joke about God telling the guy to actually buy a lottery ticket. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2018, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tree-of-liberty-needs-to-be-watered-with-the-blood-of-school-children/808854/86 "2018-02-15T18:58:28Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > The only way to actually solve this problem is to take a lot of guns away from a lot of people, and put a million or so people in jail who aren’t there now. > [@BobLibDem](#): > > I’m all for it. Round them up and melt down the guns. Yep. Make ‘em watch, too. They might get so traumatized by the sight that they go catatonic, and save us the need to put ’em in jail… ---
**Author:** ![Eonwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eonwe/32/240_2.png) [@Eonwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eonwe)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2018, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tree-of-liberty-needs-to-be-watered-with-the-blood-of-school-children/808854/87 "2018-02-15T19:02:26Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > Guns are the easy answer, a cop-out. There are other countries with lots of guns, and this doesn’t happen. The truth is something far worse: our culture is deeply fucked up, and this is one way it manifests. We’re atomized, violent, vengeful, and utterly disconnected from each other and from any sense of community. > > Fuck if I know how to fix it. [100% false](https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/07/world/americas/mass-shootings-us-international.html). ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2018, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tree-of-liberty-needs-to-be-watered-with-the-blood-of-school-children/808854/88 "2018-02-15T19:03:27Z")
Untold thousands of people screaming “My Precious!!” in unison would be a sight to see, wouldn’t it? ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2018, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tree-of-liberty-needs-to-be-watered-with-the-blood-of-school-children/808854/89 "2018-02-15T19:16:55Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > The only way to actually solve this problem is to take a lot of guns away from a lot of people, and put a million or so people in jail who aren’t there now. I don’t see why we’d have to round up anyone, but. > [@BobLibDem](#): > > I’m all for it. Round them up and melt down the guns. I’ll second confiscating and melting down all the guns whose point is killing a lot of people real fast. Didn’t used to feel that way, but conservative opposition to even the most trivial limitations on access to guns has made me say fuck it, let’s just go for broke. They’re going to call us gun grabbers no matter what, so hell with it. Let’s turn their lie into a truth. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2018, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tree-of-liberty-needs-to-be-watered-with-the-blood-of-school-children/808854/90 "2018-02-15T19:29:07Z")
It wouldn’t take roundups, it just means not worrying too much about mass incarceration as we continue to arrest people for illegal gun possession as we always have. Maybe stiffen those sentences a little further. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2018, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tree-of-liberty-needs-to-be-watered-with-the-blood-of-school-children/808854/91 "2018-02-15T19:57:09Z")
> [@SteveG1](#): > > In some states it is damn near impossible to legally get one (but oh so easy to do so illegally) and other states have virtually no controls at all. bearing in mind that someone in the USA can move from state to state freely, as long as any state has “virtually no controls” then there is no barrier at all to buying a gun easily in the USA ---
**Author:** ![bucketybuck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/898d66/32.png) [@bucketybuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bucketybuck)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2018, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tree-of-liberty-needs-to-be-watered-with-the-blood-of-school-children/808854/92 "2018-02-15T20:00:16Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > The Republican Senate will not exist in 2021 (or perhaps even 2019). You don’t seriously believe that do you? Just look at what is happening to your country, its a pathetic mess, its a mess because of the people in it and it isn’t getting better any time soon. Anybody who thinks Trump isn’t getting re-elected and that the Republicans won’t continue to hold significant power is deluded. Just look at this very thread, and one particular moron whose very first response and inclination is to start bleating about the Democrats. Bunch of kids laying in a pool of their own blood and his first thought is about “them”. Take heed of the roadsigns, because they are shouting loud and clear about what direction your society is taking. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2018, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tree-of-liberty-needs-to-be-watered-with-the-blood-of-school-children/808854/93 "2018-02-15T20:00:22Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > It wouldn’t take roundups, it just means not worrying too much about mass incarceration We _don’t_ worry about it. We already have the highest incarceration rate in the world. Higher than any country we denounce for systemic human rights violations. The difference is that that this time it would include a lot of white people. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2018, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tree-of-liberty-needs-to-be-watered-with-the-blood-of-school-children/808854/94 "2018-02-15T20:02:07Z")
> [@Eonwe](#): > > [100% false](https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/07/world/americas/mass-shootings-us-international.html). Let’s parse this out. It says Switzerland has the second highest gun ownership rate, at about half the US rate. Does Switzerland have half the mass shooting rate? No. Switzerland had 1 between 2000 and 2014, and the US had 133. Is the US population 133 times the Swiss population? No, it’s more like 38 times. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_stamos_left_ear/32/3198_2.png) [@John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Stamos_Left_Ear)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2018, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tree-of-liberty-needs-to-be-watered-with-the-blood-of-school-children/808854/95 "2018-02-15T20:16:53Z")
> [@Eonwe](#): > > [100% false](https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/07/world/americas/mass-shootings-us-international.html). [Yes, it definitely is.](https://img.washingtonpost.com/wp-apps/imrs.php?src=https://img.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldviews/files/2012/12/gun-own-totals.jpg&w=1484) “Other countries have lots of guns and this doesn’t happen” is false. Nobody has nearly as many as we do. It’s not even close. Cite: Data source: Small Arms Survey (Max Fisher/Washington Post > **[What makes America’s gun culture totally unique in the world, in four charts](https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2012/12/15/what-makes-americas-gun-culture-totally-unique-in-the-world-as-demonstrated-in-four-charts/?utm_term=.3c2fbfe42116)** > > It's hard to appreciate just how much the U.S. stands out on firearms until you look at these comparative charts. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2018, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tree-of-liberty-needs-to-be-watered-with-the-blood-of-school-children/808854/96 "2018-02-15T20:20:17Z")
> [@bucketybuck](#): > > You don’t seriously believe that do you? It could be taken in many ways… ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2018, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tree-of-liberty-needs-to-be-watered-with-the-blood-of-school-children/808854/97 "2018-02-15T20:33:06Z")
> [@John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](#): > > [Yes, it definitely is.](https://img.washingtonpost.com/wp-apps/imrs.php?src=https://img.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldviews/files/2012/12/gun-own-totals.jpg&w=1484) > > “Other countries have lots of guns and this doesn’t happen” is false. Nobody has nearly as many as we do. It’s not even close. > > Cite: Data source: Small Arms Survey (Max Fisher/Washington Post > > [https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2012/12/15/what-makes-americas-gun-culture-totally-unique-in-the-world-as-demonstrated-in-four-charts/?utm\_term=.3c2fbfe42116](https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2012/12/15/what-makes-americas-gun-culture-totally-unique-in-the-world-as-demonstrated-in-four-charts/?utm_term=.3c2fbfe42116) Why would “number of guns per person”, as opposed to ownership rate, be at all relevant here? If my street has 50 people and 50 guns, surely it matters whether it’s 50 people with one gun each or one guy with 50 guns, for the purposes of predicting how likely a mass shooting is. ---
**Author:** ![Merneith](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/57b2e6/32.png) [@Merneith](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merneith)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2018, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tree-of-liberty-needs-to-be-watered-with-the-blood-of-school-children/808854/98 "2018-02-15T20:46:54Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > To be fair, the rate of school shootings does drop off sharply during the summer months. In all honesty, conservatives will shut down the public school system before they do anything about gun regulations. I wouldn’t be surprised if those Russian-funded NRA fuckers don’t consider school shootings to be a happy development. ---
**Author:** ![Eonwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eonwe/32/240_2.png) [@Eonwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eonwe)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2018, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tree-of-liberty-needs-to-be-watered-with-the-blood-of-school-children/808854/99 "2018-02-15T20:53:37Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > Let’s parse this out. It says Switzerland has the second highest gun ownership rate, at about half the US rate. Does Switzerland have half the mass shooting rate? No. Switzerland had 1 between 2000 and 2014, and the US had 133. Is the US population 133 times the Swiss population? No, it’s more like 38 times. That’s exactly the point, however. It seems that massive increase in the number of guns tracks to a massive increase in the number of gun deaths. The fact that it’s not a linear correlation is kind of irrelevant. And it’s shown in that article that gun deaths _don’t_ track to mental health, race, video game use, etc etc. If you have evidence that something else has a meaningful correlation to gun deaths that is observable and quantifiable, present it. > [@Human\_Action](#): > > Why would “number of guns per person”, as opposed to ownership rate, be at all relevant here? If my street has 50 people and 50 guns, surely it matters whether it’s 50 people with one gun each or one guy with 50 guns, for the purposes of predicting how likely a mass shooting is. You’re the one who said “other countries have lots of guns” . . . which is false. Either in total or per capita, the US has ~7 times as many guns as the next closest country, and twice as many per capita than the next closest country. Saying “other countries have lots of guns” in comparison to the US is not true. The US is a major outlier. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2018, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tree-of-liberty-needs-to-be-watered-with-the-blood-of-school-children/808854/100 "2018-02-15T21:14:49Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > Let’s parse this out. It says Switzerland has the second highest gun ownership rate, at about half the US rate. Does Switzerland have half the mass shooting rate? No. Switzerland had 1 between 2000 and 2014, and the US had 133. Is the US population 133 times the Swiss population? No, it’s more like 38 times. Okay, lets use some switzerland laws, then. Buying guns: > [@](#): > > In order to purchase most weapons, the purchaser must obtain a weapon acquisition permit (art. 8 WG/LArm). Swiss citizens and foreigners with a C permit over the age of 18 who are not psychiatrically disqualified nor identified as posing security problems, and who have a clean criminal record can request such a permit. Foreigners with the following citizenship are explicitly excluded from the right to possess weapons: Serbia, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Kosovo, Macedonia, Turkey, Sri Lanka, Algeria and Albania.[note 2] The following information must be provided to the cantonal weapon bureau together with the weapon application form: > > valid official identification or passport copy > residence address > criminal record copy not older than 3 months Transfering guns: > [@](#): > > For each transfer of a weapon or an essential weapon component without weapons acquisition permit (art. 10 WG/LArm), a written contract must be concluded. Each Party shall keep them at least ten years. The contract must include the following information (art. 11 WG/LArm): > > Family name, first name, birth date, residence address and signature of the person who sells the weapon or essential weapon component > Family name, first name, birth date, residence address and signature of the person who purchases the weapon or an essential weapon component > Kind of weapon, manufacturer or producer, label, caliber, weapon number, and date and place of transfer; > Type and number of official identification of the person who acquires the weapon or the essential weapon component > and an indication of the processing of personal data in connection with the contract in accordance with the privacy policy of the Federation or the cantons, if firearms are transmitted. > This information must be sent within 30 days to the cantonal weapon registration bureau, where the weapon holders are registered (art. 9 WG/LArm). Buying ammo: > [@](#): > > In order to purchase ammunition the buyer must follow the same legal rules that apply to buying guns. The buyer can only buy ammunition for guns that he/she legally owns and must provide the following information to the seller (art. 15, 16 WG/LArm; art. 24 WV/OArm):[2][3] > > valid official identification or passport (and must be older than 18 and who are not psychiatrically disqualified nor identified as posing security problems, and must not be a citizen of the following countries (art. 12 WV/OArm): Serbia, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Kosovo, Macedonia, Turkey, Sri Lanka, Algeria and Albania) > residence address > criminal record copy not older than 3 months > weapon acquisition permit not older than 2 years, or a weapon carrying permit not older than 5 years Carrying guns: > [@](#): > > Conditions for obtaining a Carrying Permit > There are three conditions (art. 27 § 2 WG/LArm): > > fulfilling the conditions for a buying permit (see section above) > stating plausibly the need to carry firearms to protect oneself, other people, or real property from a specified danger > passing an examination proving both weapon handling skills and knowledge regarding lawful use of the weapon > The carrying permit remains valid for a term of five years (unless otherwise surrendered or revoked), and applies only to the type of firearm for which the permit was issued. Additional constraints may be invoked to modify any specific permit. (art. 27 § 3 WG/LArm) > > Has a valid hunting license and is carrying the firearm for hunting; > Is participating in a demonstration and is carrying the firearm in reference to a historical event; > Is participating in a shooting competition for air-soft guns, provided that the competition has a secure perimeter; or > Is an airport security officer for an authorized country, a border patrol officer, or a game warden, who is carrying the firearm in the course of their employment. I could go for those laws. Is that what you were looking for? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tree-of-liberty-needs-to-be-watered-with-the-blood-of-school-children/808854.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tree-of-liberty-needs-to-be-watered-with-the-blood-of-school-children/808854.md?page=6)