# The tree of liberty needs to be watered with the blood of school children **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [February 15, 2018, 2:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tree-of-liberty-needs-to-be-watered-with-the-blood-of-school-children/808854 "2018-02-15T02:32:10Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2018, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tree-of-liberty-needs-to-be-watered-with-the-blood-of-school-children/808854/101 "2018-02-15T21:21:15Z")
> [@Merneith](#): > > In all honesty, conservatives will shut down the public school system before they do anything about gun regulations. If conservatives started blaming mass shootings on the existence of public schools, I wouldn’t be surprised. Their logic: 1. All kids should be either homeschooled and sent to highly exclusive private schools because government is bad. 2. Only reckless, foolish parents send their kids to schools where any maniac can come in and shoot up the place. 3. Conclusion: It’s like going to the ghetto at night carrying a bunch of cash and then crying when you’re mugged. It’s like getting drunk at the frat party and then crying when you’re raped. If you’re too lazy to mitigate known risks (by homeschooling or sending your kids to a private school), then you lose the right to cry when your son or daughter gets attacked by the inevitable gun man our society somehow has to learn to live with because of the 2nd amendment. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2018, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tree-of-liberty-needs-to-be-watered-with-the-blood-of-school-children/808854/102 "2018-02-15T21:35:52Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > _ **It’s the hate-filled gun-grabbing who caused this massacre.** _ > > If all the students had been packing heat, as God intended, don’t you think Cruz would have been taken out before he killed 17? Would he have even dared to attack this way? > > And … “Cruz” ?? I don’t know if he’s related to the Cruz who helped kill JFK, but he’d have been unable to smuggle his way into America if the Wall had been built. I blame Obama for not deporting this Islamist terrorist; shouldn’t the un-American surname have been a tell-tale? Danger! Sarcasm detected! … … ``` ... ``` “So many signs that the Florida shooter was mentally disturbed, even expelled from school for bad and erratic behavior. Neighbors and classmates knew he was a big problem. Must always report such instances to authorities, again and again!” – Our Scumbag In Chief, Donald Dump That’s so cool! Blame the victims. And meanwhile the right wing and Russian bots are spreading the manure fast and thick. Troll and bot-tracking sites reported an immediate uptick in related tweets from political propaganda bots and Russia-linked Twitter accounts. Hamilton 68, a website created by Alliance for Securing Democracy, tracks Twitter activity from accounts it has identified as linked to Russian influence campaigns. What’s the position of the Russian bot army? Solidly pro-NRA and against any regulation of guns. The biggest “fact” being pushed by the Russian bots following the Valentine’s Day shooting is a story about how we’re over-counting school shootings … because the statistics are adding in just plain old murders at schools instead of being limited to instances where the shooter intended to commit mass murder. Additional stories being pushed by the Russian bot-farms attack the same point that Russia specialized in during 2016: Fear of the other. These stories paint the shooter as a member of some foreign terrorist group and paint him as sympathetic to Muslim extremists. And there’s another favorite target the Russian bots are attacking. Meanwhile, some accounts with large bot followings are already spreading misinformation about the shooter’s ties to far-left group Antifa, even though the Associated Press reported that he was a member of a local white nationalist group.   > **[Florida gunman had extra ammo at school, fired for 3 minutes](https://apnews.com/article/health-tallahassee-north-america-us-news-ap-top-news-a6fd450470d4464ab423b8b3a911b42d)** > > PARKLAND, Fla. (AP) — The teenager accused of using a semi-automatic rifle to kill 17 people at a Florida high school confessed to carrying out one of the nation's deadliest school shootings and carried extra ammunition in his backpack, according to... The Associated Press article shows the shooter’s true allegiances. The leader of a white nationalist militia called the Republic of Florida said Cruz was a member of his group and participated in exercises in Tallahassee. That’s right, while Trump wants us to focus people with brown skin, yesterday’s school shooting was the second perpetrated by a white supremacist in the last two months. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2018, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tree-of-liberty-needs-to-be-watered-with-the-blood-of-school-children/808854/103 "2018-02-15T21:39:14Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > bearing in mind that someone in the USA can move from state to state freely, as long as any state has “virtually no controls” then there is no barrier at all to buying a gun easily in the USA Exactly. It’s a fucking farce. ---
**Author:** ![Maastricht](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@Maastricht](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maastricht)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2018, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tree-of-liberty-needs-to-be-watered-with-the-blood-of-school-children/808854/104 "2018-02-15T21:43:12Z")
Gavin de Beckers’ [list of pre-incident indicators](https://books.google.nl/books?id=g_HqYYGS55oC&pg=PT273&lpg=PT273&dq=%22pre+incident+indicators%22+PIN+shooting&source=bl&ots=fMdCaBig7C&sig=S7bxk3CnDQUSC516rBFvzPVXFuc&hl=nl&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwipmv6d8ajZAhVC3aQKHXeVCHkQ6AEISTAI#v=onepage&q=%22pre%20incident%20indicators%22%20PIN%20shooting&f=false) should be common knowledge in every school. [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/us7eykTukRQ/maxresdefault.jpg "The Psychology Behind School Shootings - Gavin de Becker") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=us7eykTukRQ) ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2018, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tree-of-liberty-needs-to-be-watered-with-the-blood-of-school-children/808854/105 "2018-02-15T21:46:15Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > It wouldn’t take roundups, it just means not worrying too much about mass incarceration as we continue to arrest people for illegal gun possession as we always have. I think you missed the part where arresting people for illegal gun possession would not actually have stopped this most recent school shooter, who [purchased his gun legally](https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2018/02/15/florida-shooting-suspect-bought-gun-legally-authorities-say/340606002/). Same for the Las Vegas shooter, and the Sandy Hook one, and dozens more. Gun massacres in this country are not primarily an illegal-possession problem. ---
**Author:** ![Sherrerd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sherrerd/32/8_2.png) [@Sherrerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sherrerd)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2018, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tree-of-liberty-needs-to-be-watered-with-the-blood-of-school-children/808854/106 "2018-02-15T22:07:32Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > If conservatives started blaming mass shootings on the existence of public schools, I wouldn’t be surprised. Their logic: > > 1. All kids should be either homeschooled and sent to highly exclusive private schools because government is bad. > > 2. Only reckless, foolish parents send their kids to schools where any maniac can come in and shoot up the place. > > 3. Conclusion: It’s like going to the ghetto at night carrying a bunch of cash and then crying when you’re mugged. It’s like getting drunk at the frat party and then crying when you’re raped. If you’re too lazy to mitigate known risks (by homeschooling or sending your kids to a private school), then you lose the right to cry when your son or daughter gets attacked by the inevitable gun man our society somehow has to learn to live with because of the 2nd amendment. I think you’re quite right that this will be a favorite talking point _between_ members of the right. It will get a lot of play from the usual suspects on Fox and talk-radio. What will be interesting, is the extent to which they try to express the idea ‘ **these deaths are the fault of the _parents_, for sending their kids to public schools** ’ to general audiences–on mainstream news and in political campaigns, for example. I suspect the theory may not play so well outside of the warm, welcoming right-wing bubble. ---
**Author:** ![Jake\_Bullet\_Traffic\_Control](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/3da27b/32.png) [@Jake\_Bullet\_Traffic\_Control](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jake_Bullet_Traffic_Control)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2018, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tree-of-liberty-needs-to-be-watered-with-the-blood-of-school-children/808854/107 "2018-02-15T22:18:27Z")
> [@madmonk28](#): > > Yup, America’s gun culture is pretty much a manifestation of white American male insecurities. If the shooter is white, well waddaya gonna do? If the shooter is dark skinned and/or a Muslim then we must act now! If that’s true, why didn’t America’s gun laws change after the Pulse Nightclub shooting? Or the San Bernardino attacks? Fact is, although the rhetoric may differ depending on the ideology (note, _ideology_, not race) of the perpetrator, there is literally no force on Earth powerful enough to change America’s gun laws. Sandy Hook proved it, and Las Vegas proved it again. The only possible solutions are pre-emptive intervention and/or beefed up security in schools. Both of those are shit, but they’re the only things I can think of which are even remotely politically viable. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2018, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tree-of-liberty-needs-to-be-watered-with-the-blood-of-school-children/808854/108 "2018-02-15T22:26:33Z")
> [@Sherrerd](#): > > What will be interesting, is the extent to which they try to express the idea ‘ **these deaths are the fault of the _parents_, for sending their kids to public schools** ’ to general audiences–on mainstream news and in political campaigns, for example. I suspect the theory may not play so well outside of the warm, welcoming right-wing bubble. As with all ideas like this, the real risk is not that people will swallow them but that it’ll shift us towards more Just World thinking when it comes to mass shootings. We’ll be less likely to question a system that allows a 20 year-old unfettered access to assault rifles, and more likely to fault his former classmates and teachers for not doing more to get him institutionalized. Trump’s latest tweets show we’re already at this stage. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2018, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tree-of-liberty-needs-to-be-watered-with-the-blood-of-school-children/808854/109 "2018-02-15T22:31:18Z")
> [@Jake\_Bullet\_Traffic\_Control](#): > > If that’s true, why didn’t America’s gun laws change after the Pulse Nightclub shooting? Or the San Bernardino attacks? > > Fact is, although the rhetoric may differ depending on the ideology (note, _ideology_, not race) of the perpetrator, there is literally no force on Earth powerful enough to change America’s gun laws. Sandy Hook proved it, and Las Vegas proved it again. The only possible solutions are pre-emptive intervention and/or beefed up security in schools. Both of those are shit, but they’re the only things I can think of which are even remotely politically viable. Of course gun laws didn’t change. What people wanted to change were immigration laws. To keep “people like that” from coming into our country. Because it is because of “people like that” that we have gun violence, I guess. ---
**Author:** ![Jake\_Bullet\_Traffic\_Control](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/3da27b/32.png) [@Jake\_Bullet\_Traffic\_Control](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jake_Bullet_Traffic_Control)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2018, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tree-of-liberty-needs-to-be-watered-with-the-blood-of-school-children/808854/110 "2018-02-15T22:34:35Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > Of course gun laws didn’t change. What people wanted to change were immigration laws. To keep “people like that” from coming into our country. Because it is because of “people like that” that we have gun violence, I guess. Fair point. ---
**Author:** ![ThelmaLou](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thelmalou/32/390_2.png) [@ThelmaLou](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ThelmaLou)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2018, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tree-of-liberty-needs-to-be-watered-with-the-blood-of-school-children/808854/111 "2018-02-15T22:39:49Z")
> [@Unpronounceable](#): > > or the [fourth](https://www.cnn.com/2018/02/01/us/school-shootings-in-2018/index.html)…it depends on how much you stretch the definition of “school shooting” for PR purposes. > [@ivylass](#): > > Not that anyone on this board cares, but take that with a [HUGE grain of salt](https://www.themaven.net/theresurgent/erick-erickson/reality-is-bad-enough-H79v7Ywg00a0zYZr4nJJHQ?utm_content=buffer892a2&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer&full=1). The statistics include a man who shot a bb gun at a bus window and someone shooting a gun off campus at Cal State which struck a building. Y’all are absolutely right! This is all nothing but PR and hype. If someone shoots out the windows of my child’s bus with a BB gun, big effing deal. Stray bullets hitting school buildings-- who cares? As for people who bring guns to school and shoot themselves, I’m fine with that, too. If no one else is killed, what’s the big deal? Your kid is probably going to be fine. Maybe. Yeah. [/bitter sarcasm] ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2018, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tree-of-liberty-needs-to-be-watered-with-the-blood-of-school-children/808854/112 "2018-02-15T22:47:21Z")
Perhaps someone already said this upthread, think about this. Timothy Mcveigh uses a diesel oil and ammonium nitrate fertilizer mixture to kill people in Oklahoma City. As a result, as I understand it, the formulation for that fertilizer has been changed, and ID is required when buying more than a small amount. Someone tries to use a “shoe bomb” to kill people on a plane, so now we have to take our shoes off for inspection when going through the TSA checkpoint. The Unabomber sends bombs through the USPS that kill and maim people. As a result, the streetside mail drop boxes now have a note that any item over thirteen ounces has to be dropped off at the post office counter. But mass shootings come and go and nothing is done to prevent them. ---
**Author:** ![Locrian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/locrian/32/14146_2.png) [@Locrian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Locrian)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2018, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tree-of-liberty-needs-to-be-watered-with-the-blood-of-school-children/808854/113 "2018-02-15T22:50:16Z")
Ugh. Maybe we fight firefight with firefight? Shoot the NRA leader, then shoot the replacement, then the next one. Then maybe they’ll all cry Uncle (Sam) and give up the fetish? Separate license for ammo? Limit = one bullet per month? ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2018, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tree-of-liberty-needs-to-be-watered-with-the-blood-of-school-children/808854/114 "2018-02-15T22:57:19Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > You do realize you are a clueless buffoon? That’s the fucking point, batshit-for-brains. The constant bleating from the right about how we should go after those reprehensible types that buy guns illegally and not those law-abiding patriots that buy their guns legally completely ignores that fact that you hug these “patriots” to your bosom right up to the point that they snap. This guy was a MAGA hat wearing right-wing legal gun owner. > A Patriot to the core…right until yesterday afternoon. You know what this nut did or was thinking how? And deranged, potty mouthed, hysterical loons like yourself are what’s contributing to this society being, in many ways, dysfunctional. ---
**Author:** ![74westy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/74westy/32/3950_2.png) [@74westy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/74westy)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2018, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tree-of-liberty-needs-to-be-watered-with-the-blood-of-school-children/808854/115 "2018-02-15T23:15:39Z")
There you go. School shootings are caused by people swearing. Sh…oot! ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2018, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tree-of-liberty-needs-to-be-watered-with-the-blood-of-school-children/808854/116 "2018-02-15T23:25:17Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > You know what this nut did or was thinking how? Well, partly from his own Instagram accounts, where [he posted several pictures of assorted firearms and ammunition, in addition to a MAGA-hat avatar](https://www.nytimes.com/2018/02/15/us/florida-shooting.html). (Along with photos involving animal cruelty and other lovely stuff.) We also have information from the leader of a local white nationalist group that he participated in paramilitary drills with them. > [@octopus](#): > > And deranged, potty mouthed, hysterical loons like yourself are what’s contributing to this society being, in many ways, dysfunctional. Gee, **octopus** , that’s quite some bothsidesism you’ve got going there. _“I mean sure, on one hand we’ve got a weapons-obsessed toad-stomping white-nationalist-paramilitary MAGA-hat-wearing mass-murdering ‘nut’. But on the other hand, we’ve got the likes of **Czarcasm** angrily using profanity on an internet messageboard! Really, is it any wonder our society’s in so much turmoil? When will they ever learn?”_ ---
**Author:** ![vivalostwages](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/d07c76/32.png) [@vivalostwages](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vivalostwages)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2018, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tree-of-liberty-needs-to-be-watered-with-the-blood-of-school-children/808854/117 "2018-02-15T23:38:53Z")
But…but…but… All the prays! > **[Ryan: Praying the right thing to do after mass shootings because it ‘works’](https://thehill.com/homenews/house/359079-paul-ryan-praying-is-the-right-thing-to-do-after-mass-shootings-because-it/)** > > Speaker Paul Ryan (R-Wis.) in an interview broadcast Monday dismissed criticism of his tweet saying the Texas shooting victims “need our prayers,” arguing “prayer works.” I got into it (as civilly as I could) with one of my nieces on FB after I criticized Ryan for praying but doing nothing else. She defended him on the grounds that prayer works, the shootings are a “hearts problem,” and gun control “doesn’t work” and people should be able to buy what they want as long as they don’t have a criminal background. _siiiiiiighhhhhh_ There is absolutely no number of dead kids or dead adults or dead anybody that would ever be high enough to change the NRA leadership or any politician in bed with them/taking donations from them. ---
**Author:** ![Anny\_Middon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/bc79bd/32.png) [@Anny\_Middon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anny_Middon)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2018, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tree-of-liberty-needs-to-be-watered-with-the-blood-of-school-children/808854/118 "2018-02-15T23:41:03Z")
I’ve never really understood how it’s been determined what arms are legal to bear and which aren’t. Correct me if I’m wrong, but isn’t it illegal in every state to own working hand grenades? If someone is caught with pipe bombs, isn’t he or she arrested and charged for illegal weaponry no matter what state it happens in? If the arrestee goes to court and says, “Yes, I had the grenades/pipe bombs, but I wasn’t going to use them,” the judge is not going to say, “Well, that’s all right then. You’re free to go. Collect your weapons on the way out.” If so, why is it so fucking hard to rule that the right to bear arms doesn’t apply to semi-automatic weapons or bump stocks or silencers? How is the line drawn? Why can’t it be drawn without a constitutional amendment to be more restrictive? OK, of course this shooting could have occurred if Cruz was armed with a hunting rifle. But I don’t think that in that case there would be 17 dead. So while it may not be at all a solution, it sure as hell would be an improvement. Or is it pretty much happenstance that some weapons are forbidden in every state? If so, what would happen if, say, Kentucky decided that any weapon whatsoever was legal to own? I mean, goshdarnit, the Constitution says you have the right to bear arms so who are we to tell you what kind of arms you can bear? So, if you have the smarts and the ability to scrounge together the parts and the dream of your very own nuclear weapon, well, then, go for it, boy! And if your crazy Uncle Charlie steals it and destroys most of Lexington, we’ll throw his ass in jail. But not you, of course, because having your weapon stolen is something that could happen to anybody. I’d think even Indiana would have problems with that scenario – but could the Hoosiers actually do something about it? ---
**Author:** ![bobot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bobot/32/21622_2.png) [@bobot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bobot)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2018, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tree-of-liberty-needs-to-be-watered-with-the-blood-of-school-children/808854/119 "2018-02-15T23:56:14Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > You know what this nut did or was thinking how? And deranged, potty mouthed, hysterical loons like yourself are what’s contributing to this society being, in many ways, dysfunctional. > [@octopus](#): > > … in many ways, … Very deep. Bigly deep and thought provoking, many people are saying. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2018, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tree-of-liberty-needs-to-be-watered-with-the-blood-of-school-children/808854/120 "2018-02-16T00:22:03Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > I am. And I don’t even dislike guns or want to stop most law-abiding people from being able to own them. But as you note, the root of the problem is ultimately our nation’s gun rights culture. And the root of gun rights culture is the placement of gun ownership in the category of fundamental rights. And I think that’s a non-starter. The Amendment can’t be removed without the culture changing, and, if it changes, removing it becomes unnecessary. I wouldn’t really mind it if got removed, as I don’t think it would really hurt the right to actually own a gun. But I don’t think it’s a goal worth fighting for, except maybe as a “big ask” so that what we really want seems small by comparison. All I want is a culture where we can enact reasonable restrictions without the NRA lying about it being about taking away all guns and those who listen to them believing it. Heck, that may be the solution: have reasonable gun owners infiltrate the NRA. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tree-of-liberty-needs-to-be-watered-with-the-blood-of-school-children/808854.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tree-of-liberty-needs-to-be-watered-with-the-blood-of-school-children/808854.md?page=7)