# The trial of Elizabeth Holmes (Theranos)\[sentenced to 11+ yrs, 18Nov2022\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [July 10, 2021, 4:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trial-of-elizabeth-holmes-theranos-sentenced-to-11-yrs-18nov2022/946138 "2021-07-10T04:42:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 23
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2022, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trial-of-elizabeth-holmes-theranos-sentenced-to-11-yrs-18nov2022/946138/441 "2022-11-21T18:56:34Z")
> [@hajario](#): > > The machine wasn’t really the problem. If the actual blood test worked, the mechanics could have been worked out. Actually, the “mechanics” are a significant part of the problem. We often think of blood as a homogenous fluid but in fact it is a bunch of different constituents suspended in plasma (a proteinaceous colloid designed to maintain pressure and prevent the formation of bubbles of air from forming). Platelets are, of course, sticky when exposed to air, but a lot of the other proteins and saccharides tend to stick to any solid surface. Trying to distribute small samples of blood from the vial that only contains a few drops is a major issue even independent of the veracity of the actual tests. Of course, any test that requires centrifuging blood requires a certain volume of material, as do many other tests looking for low concentrations and accurate measurement of material. And cleaning the machine between samples is virtually impossible; as people who deal with autoclaves know, when you have instruments will small niches even high pressure steam is sometimes inadequate to fully clean equipment. There are, of course, many other issues with the concept and that Holmes could get away for years without demonstrating how their system could work around them is a testament to her manipulation and the gullibility of venture capitalist investors. But just the microfluidics issues alone should have been enough for anyone doing due diligence to question the viability of the system, and apparently nobody who was in a position to make decisions actually did. Stranger ---
**Author:** ![snowthx](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowthx/32/10660_2.png) [@snowthx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/snowthx)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2022, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trial-of-elizabeth-holmes-theranos-sentenced-to-11-yrs-18nov2022/946138/442 "2022-11-21T19:05:03Z")
> [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](#): > > But just the microfluidics issues alone should have been enough for anyone doing due diligence to question the viability of the system, and apparently nobody who was in a position to make decisions actually did. Well, all it takes is a charming and charismatic person in front of you telling you all the problems are little and will be overcome with time, and money. Seems to work for other barons of Silicon Valley all the time. ---
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2022, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trial-of-elizabeth-holmes-theranos-sentenced-to-11-yrs-18nov2022/946138/443 "2022-11-21T19:08:37Z")
I can’t dispute any of that and you make your points well. Still, before I donate blood they measure my hemoglobin. They prick my finger, put the blood on a little plastic micro fluid slab, put in a black box, the slab goes back out, they throw it in the trash and a number reads out. There is no cleaning between tests. So in my ignorant mind a machine that does a test with a drop of blood exists already and this is just a more complicated test. I’d ask to see the blood test work on the bench before I even got to the machine. ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2022, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trial-of-elizabeth-holmes-theranos-sentenced-to-11-yrs-18nov2022/946138/444 "2022-11-21T19:47:41Z")
A hemoglobin level test is pretty simple; I’m not sure of the details of the test you describe but they’re probably just measuring some level of conductivity or paramagnetic field strength of the sample, so no processing of the sample is required to separate out components. Theranos did actually run some samples for investors in a “demonstration”; unbeknownst to the investors, however, they were actually [running them on Siemens testing machines](https://www.protocol.com/theranos-trial-brian-grossman-pfm), which is a point that Elizabeth Holmes explicitly and repeatedly lied about. Stranger ---
**Author:** ![outlierrn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/outlierrn/32/3005_2.png) [@outlierrn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/outlierrn)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2022, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trial-of-elizabeth-holmes-theranos-sentenced-to-11-yrs-18nov2022/946138/445 "2022-11-21T19:50:36Z")
> [@hajario](#): > > So in my ignorant mind a machine that does a test with a drop of blood exists already and this is just a more complicated test. We already have, and _have had_, point of care testing on small amounts of capillary blood. For example [i-STAT 1 | Abbott Point of Care (globalpointofcare.abbott)](https://www.globalpointofcare.abbott/en/product-details/apoc/i-stat-system-us.html) But some of these require much more careful handling of the blood than a glucose check, even if it’s only a few drops. [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/IhMbQ7h0UQM/maxresdefault.jpg "Mission Cholesterol System - How to Get a Good Fingerstick") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IhMbQ7h0UQM&t=86) Her promise of a cost effective, automated system with such widespread menu options was one step down from a star trek medical tricorder. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2022, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trial-of-elizabeth-holmes-theranos-sentenced-to-11-yrs-18nov2022/946138/446 "2022-11-22T17:56:40Z")
> [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](#): > > …Holmes was a Harold Hill, selling the dream of a marching band to people who couldn’t hold a tune and decrying anyone who questioned her as naysayers… “Well, let me tell you, my friends, we got trouble! Right here in Silicon Valley! That’s trouble with “T” that rhymes with “P” and that stands for “Prison”…!” ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2022, 12:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trial-of-elizabeth-holmes-theranos-sentenced-to-11-yrs-18nov2022/946138/447 "2022-11-23T12:13:00Z")
There’s a YouTube video by a guy who runs a consulting service for white collar criminals headed for jail for the first time. He made a couple of interesting points. First, even though it’s a Club Fed, things can get testy if you make enemies with other inmates. He also said that the loss of control is one of the things he believes Elizabeth will have the most difficulty with. Finally, he believes that the letters of support from her family and friends may have actually hurt her more than helped her cause for sentencing. Most of them were still enabling her, blaming Balwani and everyone else rather than let her take responsibility and apologize for the fraud. He said there were too many and were just too repetitious. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2022, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trial-of-elizabeth-holmes-theranos-sentenced-to-11-yrs-18nov2022/946138/448 "2022-11-23T14:27:58Z")
> [@hajario](#): > > I’d ask to see the blood test work on the bench before I even got to the machine. They did, and Theranos faked the results. That has been well documented, and was included in the movie i linked above. I’m with @Stranger_On_A_Train . The red flag is that blood is sticky and they couldn’t physically move it around the way they claimed to. As I’ve said above, a sheaf of tests, each of which requires a drop of blood, is totally feasible. It’s the box that does them all that isn’t. (The hemoglobin test you describe is one of those totally feasible tests that could be in the sheaf. I know of at least half a dozen such tests, and I’d be surprised if there aren’t already several dozen. And I’m sure that many more could be developed. Other tests really do require a larger sample of intact and sterile cells.) ---
**Author:** ![Bullitt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bullitt/32/5725_2.png) [@Bullitt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bullitt)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2022, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trial-of-elizabeth-holmes-theranos-sentenced-to-11-yrs-18nov2022/946138/449 "2022-12-07T23:09:41Z")
13 years for Sunny Balwani. > **[Ramesh 'Sunny' Balwani is sentenced to nearly 13 years for his role in...](https://www.npr.org/2022/12/07/1141278121/theranos-sunny-balwani-sentencing-elizabeth-holmes)** > > A jury found Elizabeth Holmes' former business and romantic partner guilty in July on all 12 felony counts of defrauding Theranos investors and the patients that used the company's faulty blood tests. **GOOD** ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2022, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trial-of-elizabeth-holmes-theranos-sentenced-to-11-yrs-18nov2022/946138/450 "2022-12-08T02:55:49Z")
Sunny’s defense lawyer haz the sads now. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2022, 4:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trial-of-elizabeth-holmes-theranos-sentenced-to-11-yrs-18nov2022/946138/451 "2022-12-08T04:08:04Z")
From all I’ve read about Theranos, I’m not convinced Balwani deserves two years _more_ in prison than Holmes. I’d impose the same sentence, or perhaps a bit less, than hers. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2022, 4:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trial-of-elizabeth-holmes-theranos-sentenced-to-11-yrs-18nov2022/946138/452 "2022-12-08T04:33:46Z")
He got pegged as the evil Svengali. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2022, 4:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trial-of-elizabeth-holmes-theranos-sentenced-to-11-yrs-18nov2022/946138/453 "2022-12-08T04:36:28Z")
Yeah, and I’m not sure that’s accurate. She was the CEO - the captain of the ship, as it were. She bears ultimate responsibility. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2022, 5:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trial-of-elizabeth-holmes-theranos-sentenced-to-11-yrs-18nov2022/946138/454 "2022-12-08T05:01:49Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > She was the CEO - the captain of the ship, as it were. She bears ultimate responsibility. Well, that’s the whole point of the Svengali trope, right? It’s not the king who was really making the decisions. It was the snake whispering in his ear. It worked this time. ---
**Author:** ![outlierrn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/outlierrn/32/3005_2.png) [@outlierrn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/outlierrn)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2022, 8:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trial-of-elizabeth-holmes-theranos-sentenced-to-11-yrs-18nov2022/946138/455 "2022-12-09T08:11:06Z")
While I would tend to hold her to the higher culpability, broadly speaking, she was convicted on 4 counts and he was convicted on 12, their sentences are close enough, IMHO. ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2022, 12:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trial-of-elizabeth-holmes-theranos-sentenced-to-11-yrs-18nov2022/946138/456 "2022-12-09T12:10:15Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > From all I’ve read about Theranos, I’m not convinced Balwani deserves two years _more_ in prison than Holmes. I’d impose the same sentence, or perhaps a bit less, than hers. I seem to recall that he was convicted of several counts that she was found not guilty. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2022, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trial-of-elizabeth-holmes-theranos-sentenced-to-11-yrs-18nov2022/946138/457 "2022-12-09T13:34:14Z")
Fair point. ---
**Author:** ![Mighty\_Mouse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mighty_mouse/32/7776_2.png) [@Mighty\_Mouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mighty_Mouse)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2022, 1:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trial-of-elizabeth-holmes-theranos-sentenced-to-11-yrs-18nov2022/946138/458 "2022-12-09T13:38:32Z")
Yeah, the White Woman discount was applied at the guilt or innocence stage, not at the sentencing one. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2022, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trial-of-elizabeth-holmes-theranos-sentenced-to-11-yrs-18nov2022/946138/459 "2022-12-10T02:06:55Z")
Perhaps also the “I’m a true 100% psychopath and so can lie in a totally convincing manner” discount. Unlike Balwani who was a greedy lying bastard but not a 100% psycho. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2022, 2:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trial-of-elizabeth-holmes-theranos-sentenced-to-11-yrs-18nov2022/946138/460 "2022-12-10T02:24:28Z")
Actually, when I heard the charges, I thought the prosecution would have a harder time making some of them stick against her than against him. Corporate crimes are hard to attach the higher up you are, because it’s easier to say , with at least a reasonable doubt, that you didn’t know all the details. The closer someone is to the operations, the easier it is to prove the case. There’s a reasons Weisselberg was on trial with the Trump Org, and not the Orange wonder. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trial-of-elizabeth-holmes-theranos-sentenced-to-11-yrs-18nov2022/946138.md?page=22) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trial-of-elizabeth-holmes-theranos-sentenced-to-11-yrs-18nov2022/946138.md?page=24)