# The trial of Omar Khadr. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 9, 2010, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trial-of-omar-khadr/549730 "2010-08-09T17:16:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![orcenio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/orcenio/32/1036_2.png) [@orcenio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/orcenio)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2010, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trial-of-omar-khadr/549730/21 "2010-08-15T19:24:47Z")
> [@In\_Winnipeg](#): > > It’s kind of hard to argue for Khadr when he’s spent more time outside of Canada than in it, and spent them doing things totally against what this country traditionally stands for. > > So yes, you may indeed “frig off”. And have a nice day while you’re doing it, eh? Yes, that really was the only option. \*Who, in their right mind, would want to share space with Lord Black… 😃 ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2010, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trial-of-omar-khadr/549730/22 "2010-08-15T20:33:03Z")
> [@Rysto](#): > > He is a Canadian citizen and should have been repatriated ages ago. If he has committed a crime, let him be tried in a civilian Canadian court. So, should black have been tried in Canada instead of the US? I don’t see a difference. Canadians don’t seem too all bent up about Black, who was forced to give up his citizenship for accepting a British honour. As far as I’m concerned, a member of a family, well known al qaeda supporters, enemies of our country, have de facto renounced their citizenship. In both cases, I expect the US justice system to deal as fairly as any country with a situation that really has no precedant. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2010, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trial-of-omar-khadr/549730/23 "2010-08-15T20:37:22Z")
> [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](#): > > > [@Rysto](#): > > > > He is a Canadian citizen and should have been repatriated ages ago. If he has committed a crime, let him be tried in a civilian Canadian court. > > So, should black have been tried in Canada instead of the US? > > I don’t see a difference. 1. Black wasn’t a minor. 2. The charges against Black were based on actual laws, as opposed to just making shit up about “unlawful combatants.” 3. Black was tried before an actual jury in a legitimate court, not a kangaroo military tribunal. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2010, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trial-of-omar-khadr/549730/24 "2010-08-15T21:29:33Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > > [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](#): > > > > So, should black have been tried in Canada instead of the US? > > > > I don’t see a difference. > > 1. Black wasn’t a minor. He’s a senior citizen. We make allowances for them too. > [@](#): > > 1. The charges against Black were based on actual laws, as opposed to just making shit up about “unlawful combatants.” Well it seems to have been unlawful application of laws in the case of Black hasn’t it. Khadr killed an American. He didn’t steal. He terminated a human life. Could have been yours if you had volunteered to serve your country. Anyway, if you intend to not defend Black because he was born in Canada and defend Khadr simply because he was, your objection rings hollow to me. > [@](#): > > 1. Black was tried before an actual jury in a legitimate court, not a kangaroo military tribunal. We have military tribunals that try Canadian citizens as well in Canada you know. ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2010, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trial-of-omar-khadr/549730/25 "2010-08-15T21:43:50Z")
> [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](#): > > We have military tribunals that try Canadian citizens as well in Canada you know. You can’t tell the difference between a military justice system and what’s going on in Guantanamo? Even if tried in Canada, Kadr would not be subject to the [military justice system](http://www.forces.gc.ca/jag/justice/basis-base-eng.asp#purpose): > [@](#): > > The Code of Service Discipline applies to regular force CF members at all times and to members of the reserve force in specified circumstances such as when on duty, in uniform, in any CF vehicle, etc. Furthermore, the Code of Service Discipline can also apply to civilians in limited circumstances, such as while accompanying a CF unit that is on service or active service. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2010, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trial-of-omar-khadr/549730/26 "2010-08-15T22:07:49Z")
> [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](#): > > > [@RickJay](#): > > > > 1. Black wasn’t a minor. > > He’s a senior citizen. We make allowances for them too. If you aren’t intending to be taken seriously, you’re in the wrong forum. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2010, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trial-of-omar-khadr/549730/27 "2010-08-15T22:19:04Z")
> [@Frank](#): > > Even if tried in Canada, Kadr would not be subject to the [military justice system](http://www.forces.gc.ca/jag/justice/basis-base-eng.asp#purpose) That is true. My point is simply that Canada does try bona fide Canadian citizens via military tribunals albeit subject to enlistment in the military. What if Khadr was American? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2010, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trial-of-omar-khadr/549730/28 "2010-08-15T22:29:33Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > > [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](#): > > > > He’s a senior citizen. We make allowances for them too. > > If you aren’t intending to be taken seriously, you’re in the wrong forum. Okay, a little bit of subtle humour. Its about a serious as your justification for one Canadian born citizen being tried in the US while the other isn’t justified. I do think that Khadr’s age is a mitigating factor, but not for purposes of determining jurisdiction. And given this whole situation arises from a military conflict without end, I say that the US is justified in holding him indefinitely until the war against al Qaida is over. That isn’t practical, and if some resolution to his future is possible, A US military court is the best avenue to address the problem. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2010, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trial-of-omar-khadr/549730/29 "2010-08-15T23:38:22Z")
> [@CoolHandCox](#): > > Because the way in which they killed the American soldier was against the laws and customs of war. Okay, I’ve now read an account of the fight in which Sergeant 1st Class Christopher J. Speer was killed. I can’t tell what part of Khadr’s actions is imagined to be against the laws and customs of war. Speer died _after_ the complex in which Khadr and his companions were located had been bombed and strafed by F-18 Hornets, AH-64 Apaches, and A-10 Warthogs, and there had been shooting and grenade-throwing by fighters on the ground, on both sides. There can’t possibly have been the slightest doubt by anyone on either side that this was a _battle_. Speer was a soldier who sustained mortal wounds on a battlefield; if Khadr is the one who killed him, I don’t see how what he did was morally or legally any different from what anyone else on the scene, including Speer himself, was doing. ---
**Author:** ![Gorsnak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gorsnak/32/7587_2.png) [@Gorsnak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gorsnak)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2010, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trial-of-omar-khadr/549730/30 "2010-08-15T23:45:23Z")
> [@spark240](#): > > > [@CoolHandCox](#): > > > > Because the way in which they killed the American soldier was against the laws and customs of war. > > Okay, I’ve now read an account of the fight in which Sergeant 1st Class Christopher J. Speer was killed. > > I can’t tell what part of Khadr’s actions is imagined to be against the laws and customs of war. > > Speer died _after_ the complex in which Khadr and his companions were located had been bombed and strafed by F-18 Hornets, AH-64 Apaches, and A-10 Warthogs, and there had been shooting and grenade-throwing by fighters on the ground, on both sides. There can’t possibly have been the slightest doubt by anyone on either side that this was a _battle_. Speer was a soldier who sustained mortal wounds on a battlefield; if Khadr is the one who killed him, I don’t see how what he did was morally or legally any different from what anyone else on the scene, including Speer himself, was doing. He wasn’t wearing a uniform. This makes him an unlawful combatant and strips him of the right to defend himself when under attack. ---
**Author:** ![shamblesmaybe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/50afbb/32.png) [@shamblesmaybe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/shamblesmaybe)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2010, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trial-of-omar-khadr/549730/31 "2010-08-16T00:01:10Z")
Seriously… How is it right/ fair/ morally defensible to prosecute kids who fight (forgetting anything else) against a ARMED MILITARY FORCE in a war zone? Are there any members of Blackwater being prosecuted for killing UNARMED CIVILLIANS in an area “we” are supposed to be LIBERATING? Get real people. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2010, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trial-of-omar-khadr/549730/32 "2010-08-16T00:08:35Z")
> [@Gorsnak](#): > > He wasn’t wearing a uniform. Are you joking? A _uniform_? Americans and American allies have fought without uniforms plenty of times. You’re saying that _all_ of them were war criminals? ---
**Author:** ![Mosier](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ea924/32.png) [@Mosier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mosier)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2010, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trial-of-omar-khadr/549730/33 "2010-08-16T00:31:18Z")
> [@shamblesmaybe](#): > > Are there any members of Blackwater being prosecuted for killing UNARMED CIVILLIANS in an area “we” are supposed to be LIBERATING? Yes. American soldiers and private contractors have been prosecuted for killing civilians. ---
**Author:** ![Mosier](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ea924/32.png) [@Mosier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mosier)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2010, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trial-of-omar-khadr/549730/34 "2010-08-16T00:35:20Z")
> [@spark240](#): > > > [@Gorsnak](#): > > > > He wasn’t wearing a uniform. > > Are you joking? A _uniform_? Americans and American allies have fought without uniforms plenty of times. You’re saying that _all_ of them were war criminals? I’d like some examples of American soldiers pretending not to be soldiers whilst killing enemy soldiers. I can’t think of a scenario in which the American soldier doing such a thing would not be guilty of a crime. ---
**Author:** ![CoolHandCox](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/coolhandcox/32/16233_2.png) [@CoolHandCox](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CoolHandCox)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2010, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trial-of-omar-khadr/549730/35 "2010-08-16T00:37:34Z")
> [@spark240](#): > > > [@CoolHandCox](#): > > > > Because the way in which they killed the American soldier was against the laws and customs of war. > > Okay, I’ve now read an account of the fight in which Sergeant 1st Class Christopher J. Speer was killed. > > I can’t tell what part of Khadr’s actions is imagined to be against the laws and customs of war. > > Speer died _after_ the complex in which Khadr and his companions were located had been bombed and strafed by F-18 Hornets, AH-64 Apaches, and A-10 Warthogs, and there had been shooting and grenade-throwing by fighters on the ground, on both sides. There can’t possibly have been the slightest doubt by anyone on either side that this was a _battle_. Speer was a soldier who sustained mortal wounds on a battlefield; if Khadr is the one who killed him, I don’t see how what he did was morally or legally any different from what anyone else on the scene, including Speer himself, was doing. > [@Gorsnak](#): > > He wasn’t wearing a uniform. This makes him an unlawful combatant and strips him of the right to defend himself when under attack. **Spark240** , you’re absolutely right in your thinking. And many people would agree with you. Thus, he should be held as a POW until the end of hostilities and cannot be charged with any lawful acts he did before capture. Defending yourself, or attacking the enemy, are both lawful acts for an enemy to take. The problem arises with a reading of the Geneva Conventions regarding who can be POW’s. It doesn’t apply to everyone. You have to be in the “right type of war” (Article 2), and you have to be the “right type of person” (Article 4). Khadr _probably_ fails Article 4, as **Gorsnak** points out, but also, and more importantly his group was not militarily organized, or they did not carry arms openly, or lastly, you’d show they lacked respect for the laws and customs of war\*. Also, he _probably_ fails Article 2. The Geneva Conventions, except Art. 3, only applies in a Country vs. Country conflict; this is why there are no unlawful enemy combatants in Iraq, just Afghanistan; Al Qaeda vs. US fails Article 2. If one does not fulfill either Article 2 or 4, then Khadr cannot be a POW and thus cannot gain combatant immunity and can thus be charged with his pre-detainment acts (murder, material support, ect). That’s why he’s before the military commissions today. That’s the US stance, anyways. Europe, who’s LOAC laws are more mature, say a captured person is either a civilian or POW. No unlawful combatant. If Khadr was a POW he would have immunity for throwing the grenade, and if he were tried at all it would have to be in a courts martial (which is a little different than the military commissions). If he was a civilian we would presume he was free to go and could only intern (not detain) as a measure of last resort. But their interpretations are not binding on the US. The US, obviously would not treat him as a civilian, but the commissions, especially the first Bush one, were not close to providing the same rights one gets in a courts martial as required for POW’s. I’m only commenting on whether he can even be charged, and not whether those charges have merit. \*Apparently they have footage of Khadr planting roadside bombs. Either they are also charging him with this, or used it to show why he failed Article 4. Also, just wanted to note, you don’t have to wear a uniform if you are apart of a structured military organization (ie, the US Army, the Republican Guard, ect). It only applies to “rebel” type groups (think minutemen). > [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](#): > > What if Khadr was American? He would likely be tried in the US federal courts. Or rather, he could not be tried in the military commissions because they are limited to _alien_ unprivileged belligerents. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2010, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trial-of-omar-khadr/549730/36 "2010-08-16T00:46:46Z")
> [@Gorsnak](#): > > This makes him an unlawful combatant and strips him of the right to defend himself when under attack. Is that a fact? Would you mind showing me to the specific law that says that a person not in uniform _ **can’t defend themselves from attack?** _ ---
**Author:** ![Gorsnak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gorsnak/32/7587_2.png) [@Gorsnak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gorsnak)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2010, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trial-of-omar-khadr/549730/37 "2010-08-16T00:59:21Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > > [@Gorsnak](#): > > > > This makes him an unlawful combatant and strips him of the right to defend himself when under attack. > > Is that a fact? > > Would you mind showing me to the specific law that says that a person not in uniform _ **can’t defend themselves from attack?** _ That sound you hear isn’t an F-18 making a low pass overhead. 😉 I would agree with you that our government has acted shamefully in this matter. ---
**Author:** ![Mosier](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ea924/32.png) [@Mosier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mosier)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2010, 1:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trial-of-omar-khadr/549730/38 "2010-08-16T01:01:07Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > > [@Gorsnak](#): > > > > This makes him an unlawful combatant and strips him of the right to defend himself when under attack. > > Is that a fact? > > Would you mind showing me to the specific law that says that a person not in uniform _ **can’t defend themselves from attack?** _ Is that what Omar Khadr did? The accounts I read told of him throwing grenades at American soldiers who came to arrest someone else, and that the Americans did not fire first. Can he legitimately claim to be defending himself under those circumstances? I can’t claim to be defending myself if the police come to arrest someone in my house, and I respond by shooting them, can I? The issue of his age, and the level of coercion the adults around him might have used, is certainly up for debate, but there’s no doubt he was not “under attack” when he threw the first grenade. If he has any hope of escaping a sentence, it does not rest on the “I was just defending myself” argument. ---
**Author:** ![Gorsnak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gorsnak/32/7587_2.png) [@Gorsnak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gorsnak)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2010, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trial-of-omar-khadr/549730/39 "2010-08-16T01:38:01Z")
> [@Mosier](#): > > Is that what Omar Khadr did? The accounts I read told of him throwing grenades at American soldiers who came to arrest someone else, and that the Americans did not fire first. Can he legitimately claim to be defending himself under those circumstances? I can’t claim to be defending myself if the police come to arrest someone in my house, and I respond by shooting them, can I? > > The issue of his age, and the level of coercion the adults around him might have used, is certainly up for debate, but there’s no doubt he was not “under attack” when he threw the first grenade. If he has any hope of escaping a sentence, it does not rest on the “I was just defending myself” argument. I don’t believe Khadr has ever been accused of throwing the first grenade (or firing the first shot, or whatever). A bunch of American troops and some Afghan militia went to search a house where a satellite phone called had just been made. The occupants told them to sod off. The Americans insisted, and the occupants opened fire with rifles and grenades, killing a couple of the militia and injuring some Americans. The building was then subjected to various aerial strafing and bombing attacks. A group including Speer then entered the building, and unfortunately for them it turned out Khadr and one other man had survived the bombing. One of the two lobbed the grenade that killed Speer. Both of them were shot, but Khadr survived. I don’t see how you can analogize this to police making an arrest. Obviously the militants would dispute that the Americans had the authority to make arrests. Regardless, by the time the grenade that killed Speer was thrown the issue of who started the shooting was hardly relevant. ---
**Author:** ![Mosier](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ea924/32.png) [@Mosier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mosier)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2010, 4:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trial-of-omar-khadr/549730/40 "2010-08-16T04:57:13Z")
> [@Gorsnak](#): > > I don’t see how you can analogize this to police making an arrest. Obviously the militants would dispute that the Americans had the authority to make arrests. Regardless, by the time the grenade that killed Speer was thrown the issue of who started the shooting was hardly relevant. It is absolutely relevant, if someone wants to make the argument that Khadr was just an ordinary citizen defending himself, and not a soldier pretending to be a citizen. As it turns out, Khadr was NOT just an innocent citizen, and was actually a soldier pretending to be one. We have video of him training with other soldiers, making bombs. There is no doubt he was a soldier posing as a civilian. The only question is whether mitigating factors should be considered in his defense, such as his age. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trial-of-omar-khadr/549730.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trial-of-omar-khadr/549730.md?page=3)