# The trial of Omar Khadr. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 9, 2010, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trial-of-omar-khadr/549730 "2010-08-09T17:16:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Spoons](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spoons/32/3141_2.png) [@Spoons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoons)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2010, 5:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trial-of-omar-khadr/549730/41 "2010-08-16T05:30:28Z")
> [@Mosier](#): > > As it turns out, Khadr was NOT just an innocent citizen, and was actually a soldier pretending to be one. We have video of him training with other soldiers, making bombs. There is no doubt he was a soldier posing as a civilian. Perhaps you might like to throw a few “allegedlys” in there. Until Khadr is found by the court to be guilty of whatever crimes he is charged with, all he is, is a civilian under charges. At least do him the dignity of not finding him guilty until the court in his matter renders a decision as to whether he is guilty or not guilty. To the best of my knowledge, all American courts, even military ones, adhere to the concept of “innocent until proven guilty” in a court of competent jurisdiction, and the court of public opinion doesn’t count. ---
**Author:** ![DWMarch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dwmarch/32/1010_2.png) [@DWMarch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DWMarch)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2010, 6:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trial-of-omar-khadr/549730/42 "2010-08-16T06:12:24Z")
> [@spark240](#): > > Okay, I’ve now read an account of the fight in which Sergeant 1st Class Christopher J. Speer was killed. > > I can’t tell what part of Khadr’s actions is imagined to be against the laws and customs of war. > > Speer died _after_ the complex in which Khadr and his companions were located had been bombed and strafed by F-18 Hornets, AH-64 Apaches, and A-10 Warthogs, and there had been shooting and grenade-throwing by fighters on the ground, on both sides. There can’t possibly have been the slightest doubt by anyone on either side that this was a _battle_. Speer was a soldier who sustained mortal wounds on a battlefield; if Khadr is the one who killed him, I don’t see how what he did was morally or legally any different from what anyone else on the scene, including Speer himself, was doing. Excellent point. The US soldiers came all the way from the US to **kill** these people. An A-10 is not a negotiating tool. In the hypothetical abstract is there a red-blooded American who would refuse to take up arms against an invading Afghan army? If a bunch of Afghans surrounded and bombed your (royal you here) house in Kansas would you the homeowner refuse to take up arms and fight back because you might be found guilty of a crime under the Geneva Conventions? Another thing no one has mentioned yet: how do you suppose Khadr feels when his lawyer, perhaps the only person in the world he can actually trust, collapses in court? Sure the guy is putting in long hours and is recovering from recent surgery but Khadr must be crapping his drawers thinking this has to be a deliberate move by his oppressors. I still think he should be brought back to Canada and set free and then followed until he leads our commandos to Osama’s hideout. But the Harper government would never go for that. ---
**Author:** ![godix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/278dde/32.png) [@godix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/godix)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2010, 7:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trial-of-omar-khadr/549730/43 "2010-08-16T07:57:59Z")
One thing to consider, the entire point of the Geneva conventions is to prevent the situation that is in Afghanistan. The goal is to separate ‘military’ and ‘civilian’. The idea is that the military, any military, is not put in a position being attacked by people who look live civilians, thus prompting the military to kill anyone around who looks like innocent civilians, and may actually be so. The rules are meant to keep civilian casualties to a minimum. I don’t know enough about Khadr to have an opinion of his guilt or innocence, but I do know the situation he was captured in is exactly what the Geneva conventions and US military laws are designed to prevent. It is also exactly why the civilian casualty rate in Afghanistan is as god awful high as it is. So like I said, I don’t know if Khadr is guilty. If he is, his punishment should be severe because the actions he is accused of are indirectly responsible for thousands of civilians killed by the US military. Yes, he was only 15. Even so, no nation will let a 15 year old murderer walk because of their age. Even though they’re 15, they are still punished for their actions. A fair debate could be made on what that punishment should be, but I do not understand those who seem to think there shouldn’t be any. Needless to say, if he is not guilty then he should be freed and some attempt at compensated for his experiences since arrest. ---
**Author:** ![Mosier](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ea924/32.png) [@Mosier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mosier)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2010, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trial-of-omar-khadr/549730/44 "2010-08-17T00:51:06Z")
> [@Spoons](#): > > > [@Mosier](#): > > > > As it turns out, Khadr was NOT just an innocent citizen, and was actually a soldier pretending to be one. We have video of him training with other soldiers, making bombs. There is no doubt he was a soldier posing as a civilian. > > Perhaps you might like to throw a few “allegedlys” in there. Until Khadr is found by the court to be guilty of whatever crimes he is charged with, all he is, is a civilian under charges. At least do him the dignity of not finding him guilty until the court in his matter renders a decision as to whether he is guilty or not guilty. To the best of my knowledge, all American courts, even military ones, adhere to the concept of “innocent until proven guilty” in a court of competent jurisdiction, and the court of public opinion doesn’t count. As far as I know, Khadr is not even attempting to use the “I was just a civilian in the wrong place at the wrong time” defense. Which part of my description of the events do you object to? Do we not have the videos in question? Was he not a soldier posing as a civilian? The trial is about whether, by acting a soldier while posing as a civilian (which is not under question), he violated a law which we have the authority to punish him for. ---
**Author:** ![Mosier](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ea924/32.png) [@Mosier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mosier)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2010, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trial-of-omar-khadr/549730/45 "2010-08-17T00:54:43Z")
> [@Mosier](#): > > > [@spark240](#): > > > > Are you joking? A _uniform_? Americans and American allies have fought without uniforms plenty of times. You’re saying that _all_ of them were war criminals? > > I’d like some examples of American soldiers pretending not to be soldiers whilst killing enemy soldiers. I can’t think of a scenario in which the American soldier doing such a thing would not be guilty of a crime. Still waiting for examples of American soldiers fighting while posing as civilians. Where’d you go, **spark240**? ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2010, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trial-of-omar-khadr/549730/46 "2010-08-17T01:28:25Z")
> [@Mosier](#): > > > [@Mosier](#): > > > > I’d like some examples of American soldiers pretending not to be soldiers whilst killing enemy soldiers. I can’t think of a scenario in which the American soldier doing such a thing would not be guilty of a crime. > > Still waiting for examples of American soldiers fighting while posing as civilians. Where’d you go, **spark240**? **spark240** doesn’t claim American soldiers fight while posing as civilians. He claimed they fought without uniforms. Which is correct. For example, Zachary Boyd. > **[Access Restricted](http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/afghanistan/5331997/US-soldier-fights-Taliban-wearing-pink-shorts.html)** Would it be your claim that by fighting wearing pink shorts that Boyd is a war criminal? Should he have stopped to put on his pants? If captured by the Taliban, would you agree that he should be tried for being an illegal combatant? ---
**Author:** ![Mosier](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ea924/32.png) [@Mosier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mosier)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2010, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trial-of-omar-khadr/549730/47 "2010-08-17T01:58:26Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > Would it be your claim that by fighting wearing pink shorts that Boyd is a war criminal? Should he have stopped to put on his pants? If captured by the Taliban, would you agree that he should be tried for being an illegal combatant? No, no, and no. When come back, bring relevance. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2010, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trial-of-omar-khadr/549730/48 "2010-08-17T02:03:33Z")
> [@Mosier](#): > > > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > > > Would it be your claim that by fighting wearing pink shorts that Boyd is a war criminal? Should he have stopped to put on his pants? If captured by the Taliban, would you agree that he should be tried for being an illegal combatant? > > No, no, and no. When come back, bring relevance. …so you agree that **spark240** doesn’t claim American soldiers fight while posing as civilians? And that he is correct that at times American soldiers fight without uniforms? ---
**Author:** ![Mosier](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ea924/32.png) [@Mosier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mosier)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2010, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trial-of-omar-khadr/549730/49 "2010-08-17T02:29:07Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > > [@Mosier](#): > > > > No, no, and no. When come back, bring relevance. > > …so you agree that **spark240** doesn’t claim American soldiers fight while posing as civilians? And that he is correct that at times American soldiers fight without uniforms? Are you being deliberately obtuse here? The “uniform” claim which spark240 responded to was understood by everyone (except you, apparently) to be shorthand for representing oneself as a soldier. Boyd never tried to represent himself as anything other than a soldier fighting for the US military. The group Khadr was with represented themselves as civilians, while actually acting as soldiers. Playing semantics doesn’t make you right, and this is the last post in which I will feed your trolling. If you want to argue that American soldiers pose as civilians while fighting, we can can proceed. If not, open a pit thread and we can finish this conversation there. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2010, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trial-of-omar-khadr/549730/50 "2010-08-17T03:10:18Z")
> [@Mosier](#): > > . . . and this is the last post in which I will feed your trolling. Do not accuse other posters of trolling in **Great Debates** , (or anywhere outside **The BBQ Pit**. [/Moderating] ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2010, 3:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trial-of-omar-khadr/549730/51 "2010-08-17T03:14:38Z")
> [@Mosier](#): > > > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > > > …so you agree that **spark240** doesn’t claim American soldiers fight while posing as civilians? And that he is correct that at times American soldiers fight without uniforms? > > Are you being deliberately obtuse here? The “uniform” claim which spark240 responded to was understood by everyone (except you, apparently) to be shorthand for representing oneself as a soldier. Boyd never tried to represent himself as anything other than a soldier fighting for the US military. The group Khadr was with represented themselves as civilians, while actually acting as soldiers. Playing semantics doesn’t make you right, and this is the last post in which I will feed your trolling. If you want to argue that American soldiers pose as civilians while fighting, we can can proceed. If not, open a pit thread and we can finish this conversation there. …sorry, I’m not sure why you are so riled up. You claimed that **spark240** said something that he quite clearly did not. As for Omar, I’m glad he has got his day in court. I hope all the facts come out and that justice is finally served. [http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/world/americas/khadr-jury-to-decide-jihadist-or-scared-teen/article1670467/](http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/world/americas/khadr-jury-to-decide-jihadist-or-scared-teen/article1670467/) ---
**Author:** ![emacknight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ec8ea/32.png) [@emacknight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emacknight)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2010, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trial-of-omar-khadr/549730/52 "2010-10-26T21:50:54Z")
For those interested, Khadr has plead guilty to war crimes charges. [http://www.ctv.ca/CTVNews/TopStories/20101026/khadr-sentencing-hearing-101026/](http://www.ctv.ca/CTVNews/TopStories/20101026/khadr-sentencing-hearing-101026/) > [@](#): > > According to a statement of facts read out in court on Tuesday, Khadr threw a Russian-made F1 grenade from behind the wall of a compound in Afghanistan that was under siege from American forces in July 2002. Khadr was in the compound with other members of a terrorist cell with whom he had a pact to die rather than surrender. > > “Khadr threw the grenade with the specific intent of killing or injuring as many Americans as he could,” prosecutor Jeff Groharing told the court. > > The grenade killed U.S. Army Sgt. 1st Class Christopher Speer. Groharing told the court Khadr was “happy” to have killed a soldier, a fact that would bring him comfort during his time in custody at the Bagram Air Base near Kabul. > > “Khadr indicated that when he would get ‘pissed off’ with the guards at Bagram, he would recall his killing of the U.S. soldier and it would make him feel good,” Groharing said, reading from the statement of facts. He’ll serve eight years in prison, at least one of which will be in the US. Khadr also admitted guilt in two other murders. ---
**Author:** ![FloatyGimpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/floatygimpy/32/7750_2.png) [@FloatyGimpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FloatyGimpy)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2015, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trial-of-omar-khadr/549730/53 "2015-05-07T19:24:33Z")
Update: Omar Khadr has been released on bail. When I think about how he’s been treated all I can do is shake my head. I hope he can go on and live a happy and uneventful life. > **[Conditions Omar Khadr must observe now that he's released on bail](https://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/conditions-omar-khadr-must-observe-now-that-he-s-released-on-bail-1.2362904)** > > Former Guantanamo Bay prisoner Omar Khadr is getting his first taste of freedom in almost 13 years. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2015, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trial-of-omar-khadr/549730/54 "2015-05-07T20:13:58Z")
The Harper government fought the bail hearing hard (with our tax dollars). For no apparent reason other than personal animosity. I’m glad we still have an independent judiciary. Although Harper does seem to be wishing he could eliminate that too… ---
**Author:** ![Uzi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/91b2a8/32.png) [@Uzi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uzi)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2015, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trial-of-omar-khadr/549730/55 "2015-05-08T00:27:27Z")
Any idea why this guy hasn’t been charged with treason? He was there supporting our enemies regardless of whether he threw a grenade or not. > [@](#): > > High treason > (1) Every one commits high treason who, in Canada, > > (a) kills or attempts to kill Her Majesty, or does her any bodily harm tending to death or destruction, maims or wounds her, or imprisons or restrains her; > (b) levies war against Canada or does any act preparatory thereto; or > **(c) assists an enemy at war with Canada, or any armed forces against whom Canadian Forces are engaged in hostilities, whether or not a state of war exists between Canada and the country whose forces they are.** ---
**Author:** ![FloatyGimpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/floatygimpy/32/7750_2.png) [@FloatyGimpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FloatyGimpy)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2015, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trial-of-omar-khadr/549730/56 "2015-05-08T03:27:20Z")
> [@Uzi](#): > > Any idea why this guy hasn’t been charged with treason? He was there supporting our enemies regardless of whether he threw a grenade or not. Does it really matter? Child soldiers shouldn’t be “charged” with anything. ---
**Author:** ![Uzi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/91b2a8/32.png) [@Uzi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uzi)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2015, 3:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trial-of-omar-khadr/549730/57 "2015-05-08T03:51:44Z")
Oddly enough, I don’t see anything in the statute that mentions age. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2015, 4:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trial-of-omar-khadr/549730/58 "2015-05-08T04:43:15Z")
> [@Uzi](#): > > Oddly enough, I don’t see anything in the statute that mentions age. That’s not remotely odd. Almost none mention age but that doesn’t change the fact that children are treated differently under our criminal code. ---
**Author:** ![Uzi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/91b2a8/32.png) [@Uzi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uzi)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2015, 5:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trial-of-omar-khadr/549730/59 "2015-05-08T05:22:23Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > That’s not remotely odd. Almost none mention age but that doesn’t change the fact that children are treated differently under our criminal code. Does that mean he doesn’t get charged or that he doesn’t get the maximum punishment? Because people over the age of 12 can be charged with crimes in Canada. The reason I am asking is because I joined the Canadian army when I was 17, which was legal for me to do. Does that mean I could have have gone on a rampage if I was deployed somewhere and not expected to be charged with anything because I’d have been considered a child soldier? ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2015, 5:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trial-of-omar-khadr/549730/60 "2015-05-08T05:22:36Z")
> [@Uzi](#): > > Any idea why this guy hasn’t been charged with treason? He was there supporting our enemies regardless of whether he threw a grenade or not. Because he wasn’t “In Canada” at the time, like line 1 says? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trial-of-omar-khadr/549730.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trial-of-omar-khadr/549730.md?page=4)