# The Trump Administration: A Clusterfuck in the Making Part Deux (Part 1) **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 22, 2020, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-administration-a-clusterfuck-in-the-making-part-deux-part-1/911083 "2020-06-22T03:36:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 37
**Author:** ![solost](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/solost/32/11776_2.png) [@solost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/solost)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2020, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-administration-a-clusterfuck-in-the-making-part-deux-part-1/911083/727 "2020-07-09T16:13:40Z")
I’m still trying to understand what the Supreme Court could have done that would have been the worst possible outcome for trump. mhendo, in the “Butt-Hurt trump Takes to Twitter Again” thread, you said that you didn’t think it was an option for SCOTUS to force the records to be released immediately (please correct me if I’m mistaking what you said). So why is this decision being seen as a wimpy half-measure punt? What could the court have done to hand trump a real defeat? > **[The Supreme Court just wimped out on Trump's tax returns -- and handed him a...](https://www.rawstory.com/2020/07/the-supreme-court-just-wimped-out-on-trumps-tax-returns-and-handed-him-a-political-victory/)** > > A cowardly Supreme Court punted today on the criminal investigation into whether Donald Trump and his Trump Organization are major league criminal tax cheats.The high court held that while Trump cannot shield his tax and business records from New... ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2020, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-administration-a-clusterfuck-in-the-making-part-deux-part-1/911083/728 "2020-07-09T16:21:21Z")
The “artist” who created should count himself fortunate not to have been tied to that abomination before it was set on fire. ---
**Author:** ![guizot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guizot/32/3636_2.png) [@guizot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/guizot)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2020, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-administration-a-clusterfuck-in-the-making-part-deux-part-1/911083/729 "2020-07-09T16:27:52Z")
Maybe Trump’s first concern is that the returns will be leaked before the election. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2020, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-administration-a-clusterfuck-in-the-making-part-deux-part-1/911083/730 "2020-07-09T16:34:22Z")
> [@solost](#): > > you said that you didn’t think it was an option for SCOTUS to force the records to be released immediately Actually, it was someone else who made that assertion, but I think it’s correct. The court was dealing with whether the President could block the subpoena simply because he was President. The President offered a variety of arguments for this. He argued that complying with a state criminal subpoena would: - “divert the Chief Executive from his duties” (p. 12) - create a stigma that would “undermine his leadership at home and abroad” (p. 14) - make him a target for “harassment” by any state prosecutor with a political bone to pick (p. 15) The President and the Solicitor General also argued that, even if you reject all of those arguments above (which the Supreme Court did), “a state grand jury subpoena seeking a President’s private papers must satisfy a heightened need standard” (p. 17) The court rejected that claim also. But, having rejected all the President’s arguments, the court could not simply order the President to hand over his materials, because even if you’re not the President, you have the legal right to challenge a Grand Jury subpoena in court. And now, that’s what the President gets to do, just like any other American citizen. The Supreme Court also noted a few ways that the Presidency itself might have to be considered by the lower court in making its decision. So, basically, the Supreme Court said, “Those arguments that you have made about why you shouldn’t have to comply with the subpoena are wrong, but there are other arguments that you can make, and now you get to go back to the lower court and make those arguments.” As for the RawStory piece you linked, that’s a political screed, and not a legal analysis. It’s actually a bit embarrassing in its frothy hyperbole. ---
**Author:** ![Frazzled](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/frazzled/32/3368_2.png) [@Frazzled](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frazzled)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2020, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-administration-a-clusterfuck-in-the-making-part-deux-part-1/911083/731 "2020-07-09T16:50:43Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > create a stigma that would “undermine his leadership at home and abroad” (p. 14) Trump has done a good enough job of that on his own so no worry about how his taxes will affect him there. ---
**Author:** ![solost](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/solost/32/11776_2.png) [@solost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/solost)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2020, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-administration-a-clusterfuck-in-the-making-part-deux-part-1/911083/732 "2020-07-09T17:04:20Z")
OK, I know [rawtory.com](http://rawtory.com) is anti-trump hyperbole, so how about the “failing New York Times”? > The Supreme Court on Thursday cleared the way for prosecutors in New York to see President Trump’s financial records, a stunning defeat for Mr. Trump but a decision that probably means the records will be shielded from public scrutiny under grand jury secrecy rules until after the election, and perhaps indefinitely. > > In a separate decision, _ **the court ruled that Congress could not, at least for now, see many of the same records.** _ (Bolding and italics mine). It seems the court could have ruled that Congress immediately see the records? Again, the media seems to be spinning this as a practical win for trump, and I’m trying to understand what the worst outcome for trump could have been. If this is the worst determination for trump the Court could have made by law, why is it not seen as a major trump defeat? Is it a misunderstanding on the part of the media? > **[Supreme Court Rules Trump Cannot Block Release of Financial Records...](https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/09/us/trump-taxes-supreme-court.html?action=click&module=Top%20Stories&pgtype=Homepage)** > > Two rulings clear the way for prosecutors in New York to seek President Trump’s financial records, but the justices stopped Congress for now. ---
**Author:** ![jsc1953](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/5daacb/32.png) [@jsc1953](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jsc1953)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2020, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-administration-a-clusterfuck-in-the-making-part-deux-part-1/911083/733 "2020-07-09T17:30:34Z")
If today was a victory for Trump he wouldn’t have gone off on the foaming-at-the-mouth Twitter rant response, which he did. ---
**Author:** ![Akaj](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/akaj/32/145_2.png) [@Akaj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Akaj)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2020, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-administration-a-clusterfuck-in-the-making-part-deux-part-1/911083/734 "2020-07-09T17:50:33Z")
I’ve read the linked articles but can’t seem to find any clarification on this point: Why was Congress barred from seeing the records it requested? Was it a technical thing, or is SCOTUS basically saying a president is under no obligation to obey congressional subpeonas, just because he’s the president? ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2020, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-administration-a-clusterfuck-in-the-making-part-deux-part-1/911083/735 "2020-07-09T18:05:03Z")
SCOTUS found that the lower court had inadequately considered issues relating to separation of powers and so the case was remanded back to them with instruction to look at that aspect more carefully. So Congress isn’t barred from seeing them; the arguments haven’t fully played out yet. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2020, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-administration-a-clusterfuck-in-the-making-part-deux-part-1/911083/736 "2020-07-09T18:06:02Z")
Per NBC Radio News, Trump cannot be reached for comment because he’s not answering his phone again. > **[New York City paints Black Lives Matter mural outside Trump Tower in Manhattan...](https://www.cnn.com/2020/07/09/us/trump-tower-black-lives-matter-mural-new-york-trnd/index.html)** > > New York City is painting a Black Lives Matter mural on the street directly outside of Trump Tower in Midtown Manhattan. ---
**Author:** ![solost](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/solost/32/11776_2.png) [@solost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/solost)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2020, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-administration-a-clusterfuck-in-the-making-part-deux-part-1/911083/737 "2020-07-09T18:08:47Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > SCOTUS found that the lower court had inadequately considered issues relating to separation of powers and so the case was remanded back to them with instruction to look at that aspect more carefully. > > So Congress isn’t barred from seeing them; the arguments haven’t fully played out yet. Thanks, that’s a good concise explanation. ---
**Author:** ![ThelmaLou](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thelmalou/32/390_2.png) [@ThelmaLou](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ThelmaLou)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2020, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-administration-a-clusterfuck-in-the-making-part-deux-part-1/911083/738 "2020-07-09T18:08:51Z")
> [@Skywatcher](#): > > Per NBC Radio News, Trump cannot be reached for comment because he’s not answering his phone again.- I understand. Sometimes when I have a tantrum, I turn off my phone “to show everyone that they’ve been mean to me!” Usually no one knows or notices. Time to send drones out to inspect the golf courses. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2020, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-administration-a-clusterfuck-in-the-making-part-deux-part-1/911083/739 "2020-07-09T19:11:20Z")
> [@solost](#): > > It seems the court could have ruled that Congress immediately see the records? Again, the media seems to be spinning this as a practical win for trump, and I’m trying to understand what the worst outcome for trump could have been. First, in the Congressional cases, the Supreme Court, if it wanted to, probably could have just upheld the Second Circuit’s ruling that Trump’s bank and financial advisers had to hand over the documents requested by Congress. The Supreme Court _ **can** _ do a lot of things; it’s a very powerful institution, and is accountable to very little except its own members’ sense of their constitutional duty. But, even in a rather politicized court like this one, there’s a difference between what it _ **can** _ do, and what it reasonably _ **might** _ do based on the law. Many legal analysts and constitutional scholars actually argued that the Supreme Court might simply tell Congress that it had overstepped the line, and that it could not have the documents that it wanted. The feeling among many legal folks was that Trump would win the Congressional case outright. The fact that he didn’t, and that it now goes back to the lower court, is a worse outcome for Trump than many people predicted in that case. I should add, by the way, that I hate Trump with a fiery wrath, and even I think that the House’'s efforts to get Trump’s info here are largely political. Sure, they’re making arguments that they need to consider this evidence in their efforts to make laws, but the fact is that this is basically a Democratic-dominated committee doing what it can to make life difficult for the President. Politically, I don’t have too much of a problem with that, especially given the way that Trump himself has behaved, but I also don’t have a problem with the Supreme Court telling them that they need to do better. I don’t want a country where a hostile Congress can go on a fishing expedition against a sitting President for the (almost) sole purpose of political gain. Finally, I’m not sure what you’re talking about when you say that “the media seems to be spinning this as a practical win for trump.” Your own story, the _New York Times_ piece that you quote in your previous post, says that the decisions constituted “a stunning defeat for Mr. Trump.” It also said: > [@](#): > > Mr. Sekulow was right that the Supreme Court left open the possibility that Mr. Trump could make new objections to the New York subpoena. But the majority rejected the argument the president had made in the Supreme Court: that he is categorically immune from being having his records subpoenaed by state prosecutors. > > The majority also rejected the Justice Department’s more limited argument: that state prosecutors must satisfy a demanding standard when they seek information concerning a sitting president. I don’t know how you interpret all that as a win. It’s a practical win for Trump only in the narrowest sense that these cases are now unlikely to have any effect on the election. ---
**Author:** ![JKellyMap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jkellymap/32/15880_2.png) [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2020, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-administration-a-clusterfuck-in-the-making-part-deux-part-1/911083/740 "2020-07-09T19:13:06Z")
> [@jsc1953](#): > > If today was a victory for Trump he wouldn’t have gone off on the foaming-at-the-mouth Twitter rant response, which he did The dude won the presidency, then whiningly insisted on a bogus, pointless-even-if-true-though-it-obviously-wasn’t investigation because he’d lost the popular vote. ---
**Author:** ![gytalf2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/ac91a4/32.png) [@gytalf2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gytalf2000)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2020, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-administration-a-clusterfuck-in-the-making-part-deux-part-1/911083/741 "2020-07-09T19:16:25Z")
Wow! So evil… ---
**Author:** ![Akaj](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/akaj/32/145_2.png) [@Akaj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Akaj)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2020, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-administration-a-clusterfuck-in-the-making-part-deux-part-1/911083/742 "2020-07-09T19:22:36Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > … I think that the House’'s efforts to get Trump’s info here are largely political. Sure, they’re making arguments that they need to consider this evidence in their efforts to make laws, but the fact is that this is basically a Democratic-dominated committee doing what it can to make life difficult for the President. Politically, I don’t have too much of a problem with that, especially given the way that Trump himself has behaved, but I also don’t have a problem with the Supreme Court telling them that they need to do better. I don’t want a country where a hostile Congress can go on a fishing expedition against a sitting President for the (almost) sole purpose of political gain. Fight my ignorance, please. Don’t these subpeonas go back to the impeachment inquiry? If so, I’d hardly classify them as “a Democratic-dominated committee doing what it can to make life difficult for the President.” More like a committee doing everything they could to prove that a president’s actions were an impeachable crime – which is their constitutional duty, not (merely) a political ploy. If I’m wrong about any of this – a possibility I fully acknowledge – please set me straight. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2020, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-administration-a-clusterfuck-in-the-making-part-deux-part-1/911083/743 "2020-07-09T19:40:03Z")
> [@jsc1953](#): > > If today was a victory for Trump he wouldn’t have gone off on the foaming-at-the-mouth Twitter rant response, which he did. Could you summarize that for those of us who aren’t on Twitter? Thanks in advance. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2020, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-administration-a-clusterfuck-in-the-making-part-deux-part-1/911083/744 "2020-07-09T19:40:45Z")
These subpoenas go back to the same time period, but they’re not, and were not, part of the impeachment process, although, had they been successful at the time, information turned over by the President might have been used as part of impeachment. The explicitly stated purpose of these subpoenas, as summarized by the Supreme Court, was to: > [@](#): > > help guide legislative reform in areas ranging from money laundering and terrorism to foreign involvement in U. S. elections. If you look at the [Respondents’ Brief](http://www.supremecourt.gov/DocketPDF/19/19-715/134253/20200226162318816_Nos%2019%20715%20760%20%20Merits%20Brief%20Final.pdf) (i.e., the brief of the House Committees), they never say that this is part of the impeachment process, although they do argue that their inquiries fall under Congress’s power to “investigate potential wrongdoing if the investigation relates to a valid legislative purpose” (p. 39). It might have been going too far to say that the subpoenas were “largely political,” but that was a significant part of what’s going on here, even though they also have potential to uncover very real malfeasance on the part of the Hairdo-in-Chief. It’s worth noting that Clarence Thomas dissented from the ruling in this case, arguing that “Congress has no power to issue a legislative subpoena for private, nonofficial documents.” But he also argued that, if they had requested these documents as part of an impeachment process, it probably would have been OK. > [@](#): > > Congress may be able to obtain these documents as part of an investigation of the President, but to do so, it must proceed under the impeachment power. This suggests pretty strongly that the subpoenas were _ **not** _ issued as part of the impeachment process. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2020, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-administration-a-clusterfuck-in-the-making-part-deux-part-1/911083/745 "2020-07-09T19:42:04Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > Could you summarize that for those of us who aren’t on Twitter? Thanks in advance They are all listed in the Trump Twitter thread. Plus, you don’t have to be “on Twitter” to see the tweets. ---
**Author:** ![solost](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/solost/32/11776_2.png) [@solost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/solost)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2020, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-administration-a-clusterfuck-in-the-making-part-deux-part-1/911083/746 "2020-07-09T19:42:23Z")
Okay, I think I understand. The Court could have ruled that the House be handed over the financial records immediately, but this would have been a too-politicized decision in favor of the Democratic House. Or they could have ruled that the House were not allowed to see the records ever, but this would have been a too-politicized decision in trump’s favor. What they did was generally a good impartial legal decision, in your view. Is that about right? > [@mhendo](#): > > Finally, I’m not sure what you’re talking about when you say that “the media seems to be spinning this as a practical win for trump.” Your own story, the _New York Times_ piece that you quote in your previous post, says that the decisions constituted “a stunning defeat for Mr. Trump.” It also said: The nytimes article was not the greatest example of that-- there were article headers immediately after the ruling, one in CNN for example, that said things to the effect of “Court hands trump a win”. Now they seem to have evolved to this point of view: [https://www.cnn.com/2020/07/09/politics/supreme-court-trump-financial-records/index.html](https://www.cnn.com/2020/07/09/politics/supreme-court-trump-financial-records/index.html) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-administration-a-clusterfuck-in-the-making-part-deux-part-1/911083.md?page=36) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-administration-a-clusterfuck-in-the-making-part-deux-part-1/911083.md?page=38)