# The Trump Administration: A Clusterfuck in the Making **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [December 7, 2016, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-administration-a-clusterfuck-in-the-making/774070 "2016-12-07T00:25:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 100
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2017, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-administration-a-clusterfuck-in-the-making/774070/1981 "2017-03-09T15:24:38Z")
> [@scudsucker](#): > > @ **ckalli1998** > > I’m interested in your ideas of how the political spectrum is described. > > You are describing as “ultraliberal leftists” anyone to the left of your views. > > I have to know: if the Democratic party is “ultraliberal” but yet when compared to moderate parties in Europe and elsewhere is very much right/centre, what do you use to describe the social liberalism of, say Norway? Goddamn pink lovin’ Commies? ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2017, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-administration-a-clusterfuck-in-the-making/774070/1982 "2017-03-09T15:52:41Z")
> [@Hamlet](#): > > The economy really started to improve after Clinton’s 1993 budget bill (if you remember, it was the one the Republicans lied about it being ““largest tax increase in history” and that Gingrich predicted ““The tax increase will kill jobs and lead to a recession, and the recession will force people off of work and onto unemployment and will actually increase the deficit.”) This idea that it was the Republicans were responsible for the economic boon of the 90’s is just silly. It was a multitude of reasons, including deficit reduction, low oil prices, tax increases on the very wealthy, and many more, many un-Republican, actions. I think the ending of the deficit was a result, not a cause, of tax increases and a naturally booming economy. I think that other than the reasons you listed, ending “welfare as we know it” also had a tiny bit to do with the economic boom: I was afraid that it would be a disaster but it turned out to be good for the economy _in an already robust unemployment situation_, adding labor to a workforce that needed it. However, restrictive, bordering on onerous, welfare requirements and limits that work in times of 4% unemployment don’t apply to 12%, and we need flexibility in that realm. This, however, is me playing “devil’s advocate” because welfare reform probably rounds out the bottom of the top 10 reasons for the 90s anomaly in a similar way to how “banks being cajoled into lending to poor people” was only a minor cause of the 2000s housing crash. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2017, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-administration-a-clusterfuck-in-the-making/774070/1983 "2017-03-09T15:57:19Z")
> [@ckalli1998](#): > > I sure can. The National Mining Association released a reputable report showing that over 70,000 jobs would have been lost by the coal-stream regulation rule passed by Obama, had it not been repealed by President Trump and the Republican Congress. See this:[http://nma.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/Fact-Sheet-SPR.pdf](http://nma.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/Fact-Sheet-SPR.pdf) The National Mining Association also says in that broadsheet “When coal-supported jobs in manufacturing, power plants and freight rail are included, the toll on employment rises to between 113,000 and 280,000.” I find this fascinating because it would be more jobs lost than actually exist![ > [@](#): > > US employment in coal mining peaked in 1923, when there were 863,000 coal miners.[10] Since then, mechanization has greatly improved productivity in coal mining, so that employment has declined at the same time coal production increased. The average number of coal mining employees declined to 65,400 in 2015.[11] This was below the previous low of 70,000 in 2003, and the lowest number of US coal miners in at least 125 years.[12][13] ]([https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coal\_mining\_in\_the\_United\_States](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coal_mining_in_the_United_States))[ > [@](#): > > There are approximately 174,000 blue-collar, full-time, permanent jobs related to coal in the U.S.: mining (83,000), transportation (31,000), and power plant employment (60,000). ]([Coal and jobs in the United States - SourceWatch](http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php/Coal_and_jobs_in_the_United_States)) What was it we were supposed to find “reputable” about that broadsheet?? 😕 :dubious: :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![ckalli1998](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a3d4f5/32.png) [@ckalli1998](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ckalli1998)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2017, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-administration-a-clusterfuck-in-the-making/774070/1984 "2017-03-09T16:38:43Z")
> [@scudsucker](#): > > @ **ckalli1998** > > I’m interested in your ideas of how the political spectrum is described. > > You are describing as “ultraliberal leftists” anyone to the left of your views. > > I have to know: if the Democratic party is “ultraliberal” but yet when compared to moderate parties in Europe and elsewhere is very much right/centre, what do you use to describe the social liberalism of, say Norway? > > And how do you describe the (self-described) Marxist government of Robert Mugabe in Zimbabwe? > > Who would you say in your opinion represents a moderate? Who represents an ultraconservative? In my opinion, ultraliberal leftists are represented by thePelosi-Schumer-Reid-Obama-Warren wing of the Democratic Party, while its moderate side is represented by Jon Tester, Heidi Hetkamp, and Joe Manchin. An ultraconservative, in my view, would be represented by people like the late Antonin Scalia, Sens. Mike Lee, Marco Rubio, Rand Paul, John Cornyn, and the Republican Study Committee and House Freedom Caucus. The Marxist government would be described by me as being hard-leftist. Note, I was using “ultraliberal leftist” only in connection with American politics compared to other political parties in the U.S., not with center-right parties in Europe. The U.K. Conservative Party, for example, is much more liberal than its American counterpart, the Republican Party. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Economist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2017, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-administration-a-clusterfuck-in-the-making/774070/1985 "2017-03-09T16:46:15Z")
> [@VinylTurnip](#): > > I’m not usually a betting man, but I’m comfortable putting up my house, car, and _ **droit du seigneur** _ [emphasis mine] with Mme Turnip up as collateral for a counter-wager on that one. In many marriages this sort of thing wouldn’t be available for long. ---
**Author:** ![ckalli1998](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a3d4f5/32.png) [@ckalli1998](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ckalli1998)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2017, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-administration-a-clusterfuck-in-the-making/774070/1986 "2017-03-09T16:49:22Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > It is perhaps worth noting that on this, [Rasmussen is a _clear_ outlier](https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/trump-approval-ratings/). Essentially every other polling firm has found pretty much the opposite result. Interestingly, a recent [Quinnipiac University](https://poll.qu.edu/national/release-detail?ReleaseID=2437) poll went into considerably more detail and found that not only do most people oppose Trump, most of his policies are radically unpopular. And keep in mind - these guys get an “A-” from 538; Rasmussen gets a “C+”. Rasmussen being an “outlier” is not evidence that its poll numbers are bunk. Again, the vast majority of polls in 2016 predicted Hillary Clinton would win the election; she lost it. Rasmussen was the second most accurate pollster in 2016, as it predicted HRC would win by 1.7 points, rounded up that gives you two points, which is the margin she ended up winning by. Only the Investor’s Business Daily poll was better, which showed Trump both winning the election and predicting he’d win with 45 percent popular vote (he actually won with 46, so the IBD poll was very accurate). Both the IBD and Rasmussen were outliers during the election. They turned out to be right, and they’re right now. Again, there is a reason Trump appears so unpopular when he is in fact more popular then people think:[http://www.politico.com/story/2017/02/donald-trump-popularity-polling-234630](http://www.politico.com/story/2017/02/donald-trump-popularity-polling-234630) ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2017, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-administration-a-clusterfuck-in-the-making/774070/1987 "2017-03-09T17:17:06Z")
> [@ckalli1998](#): > > Again, there is a reason Trump appears so unpopular when he is in fact more popular then people think:[http://www.politico.com/story/2017/02/donald-trump-popularity-polling-234630](http://www.politico.com/story/2017/02/donald-trump-popularity-polling-234630) Being popular does not make him: smart, qualified, honest, moral, or good for the country, or even his support base, despite their desperate need to believe otherwise. I’m sure we can put together a long list of leaders who were popular for a time but ultimately disastrous. Trump is destined to be another name on that long ignonimous list that history won’t soon forgive nor forget. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2017, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-administration-a-clusterfuck-in-the-making/774070/1988 "2017-03-09T18:03:35Z")
> [@ckalli1998](#): > > Note, I was using “ultraliberal leftist” only in connection with American politics compared to other political parties in the U.S., not with center-right parties in Europe. The U.K. Conservative Party, for example, is much more liberal than its American counterpart, the Republican Party. The United States does not exist in a bubble, even if you do personally. If the Democrats are ultraliberal leftists, then by that standard Canada must be a full-blown communist country. If not, your standards of measurements are meaningless. ---
**Author:** ![ckalli1998](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a3d4f5/32.png) [@ckalli1998](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ckalli1998)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2017, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-administration-a-clusterfuck-in-the-making/774070/1989 "2017-03-09T18:06:49Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > The United States does not exist in a bubble, even if you do personally. If the Democrats are ultraliberal leftists, then by that standard Canada must be a full-blown communist country. If not, your standards of measurements are meaningless. Canada is a socialist country, not a communist one; the latter term is way too strong. Trudeau is an ultraliberal leftist as well. He prevented any pro-life candidates from even running on his party line. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2017, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-administration-a-clusterfuck-in-the-making/774070/1990 "2017-03-09T18:16:52Z")
> [@ckalli1998](#): > > Canada is a socialist country, not a communist one; the latter term is way too strong. Trudeau is an ultraliberal leftist as well. He prevented any pro-life candidates from even running on his party line. They have at least two other parties to choose from. They are not denied a voice or representation in parliament because the Liberal Party platform is a pro-choice platform. ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2017, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-administration-a-clusterfuck-in-the-making/774070/1991 "2017-03-09T18:18:35Z")
> [@ckalli1998](#): > > Correlation does not equal causation, bud. As you know Bill Clinton’s opponents, the GOP, controlled both houses of Congress during the final six years of his presidency, and the economy only boomed after several reforms the conservative members worked to pass with Clinton, such as 1996 welfare reform, the cutting of high capital gains taxes, a balanced budget, as well as holding the line on spending. Indeed, even Clinton saw the sense behind conservative policies when he announced during one of his State of the Union addresses that “the era of Big Government is over.” 🆒 If congressional Republicans were so dedicated to a balanced budget and holding the line on spending, why did spending and the deficit both start climbing as soon as Clinton was out of office, but Republicans still controlled Congress? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2017, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-administration-a-clusterfuck-in-the-making/774070/1992 "2017-03-09T18:19:03Z")
> [@ckalli1998](#): > > Canada is a socialist country, not a communist one; the latter term is way too strong. Trudeau is an ultraliberal leftist as well. He prevented any pro-life candidates from even running on his party line. Well, based on that, you’re either trolling or so far removed from reason/knowledge that I have little expectation of productive conversation with you. It’ll just be mockery from me, if anything, for the near future. ---
**Author:** ![ckalli1998](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a3d4f5/32.png) [@ckalli1998](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ckalli1998)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2017, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-administration-a-clusterfuck-in-the-making/774070/1993 "2017-03-09T18:21:59Z")
> [@Robot\_Arm](#): > > If congressional Republicans were so dedicated to a balanced budget and holding the line on spending, why did spending and the deficit both start climbing as soon as Clinton was out of office, but Republicans still controlled Congress? I’ll give you that: as much respect as I have for George W., he did nonetheless allow spending to soar out of control on federal entitlements and education while two wars were going on, which lead to the monstrous deficit. Principled Republicans, like then-Rep. Mike Pence of Indiana, opposed his Wall Street bailout, his governed the-expanding unpaid for Medicare prescription drug entitlement, as well as other free-spending measures. ---
**Author:** ![ckalli1998](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a3d4f5/32.png) [@ckalli1998](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ckalli1998)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2017, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-administration-a-clusterfuck-in-the-making/774070/1994 "2017-03-09T18:24:00Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Well, based on that, you’re either trolling or so far removed from reason/knowledge that I have little expectation of productive conversation with you. It’ll just be mockery from me, if anything, for the near future. Canada has universal, _socialized_ healthcare, which entails massive government involvement and is one of the tenets of socialism. Pointing this out doesn’t make me a troll or removed from reality. ---
**Author:** ![Airbeck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/airbeck/32/6574_2.png) [@Airbeck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airbeck)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2017, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-administration-a-clusterfuck-in-the-making/774070/1995 "2017-03-09T18:26:41Z")
> [@ckalli1998](#): > > Canada has universal, _socialized_ healthcare, which entails massive government involvement and is one of the tenets of socialism. Pointing this out doesn’t make me a troll or removed from reality. Public libraries and schools are also “_socialist_”, as are national highways etc. So by your definition isn’t America a Socialist country too? ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2017, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-administration-a-clusterfuck-in-the-making/774070/1996 "2017-03-09T18:28:06Z")
> [@ckalli1998](#): > > Canada has universal, _socialized_ healthcare, which entails massive government involvement and is one of the tenets of socialism. Pointing this out doesn’t make me a troll or removed from reality. A minute ago, you said it was socialist because Trudeau excluded pro-life candidates from his party. (Which I’m inclined to fact check.) Which is it then? ---
**Author:** ![ckalli1998](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a3d4f5/32.png) [@ckalli1998](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ckalli1998)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2017, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-administration-a-clusterfuck-in-the-making/774070/1997 "2017-03-09T18:29:18Z")
> [@Airbeck](#): > > Public libraries and schools are also “_socialist_”, as are national highways etc. So by your definition isn’t America a Socialist country too? Public libraries are not products of socialism, WTF? They can’t be consider socialist in any way. They are funded by taxpayer dollars and are public, however that is not synonymous with socialism ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2017, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-administration-a-clusterfuck-in-the-making/774070/1998 "2017-03-09T18:30:47Z")
> [@ckalli1998](#): > > Public libraries are not products of socialism, WTF? They can’t be consider socialist in any way. They are funded by taxpayer dollars and are public, however that is not synonymous with socialism Who funds socialized healthcare? Magic woodland creatures? ---
**Author:** ![Airbeck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/airbeck/32/6574_2.png) [@Airbeck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airbeck)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2017, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-administration-a-clusterfuck-in-the-making/774070/1999 "2017-03-09T18:30:53Z")
> [@ckalli1998](#): > > Public libraries are not products of socialism, WTF? They can’t be consider socialist in any way. They are funded by taxpayer dollars and are public, however that is not synonymous with socialism That’s how socialized health care is funded too, and that’s public as well. So are you now saying that isn’t socialist either? You have no idea what socialism is do you? ---
**Author:** ![marshmallow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@marshmallow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marshmallow)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2017, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-administration-a-clusterfuck-in-the-making/774070/2000 "2017-03-09T18:36:09Z")
If you want to be charitable you could say he means social democracy. A lot of Americans equate welfare capitalism with socialism. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-administration-a-clusterfuck-in-the-making/774070.md?page=99) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-administration-a-clusterfuck-in-the-making/774070.md?page=101)