# The Trump Administration: A Clusterfuck in the Making **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [December 7, 2016, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-administration-a-clusterfuck-in-the-making/774070 "2016-12-07T00:25:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1251
**Author:** ![El\_Kabong](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/el_kabong/32/496_2.png) [@El\_Kabong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Kabong)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2018, 7:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-administration-a-clusterfuck-in-the-making/774070/25005 "2018-09-06T07:40:27Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > I know, right ? Whoever wrote this clearly needs some fresh air, because he’s essentially saying “Look, we know it’s a shitshow. And we did talk about doing this by the book we pretend to revere (including in this very article), but in the end we decided that shadowy, underhanded shenanigans were more our _forte_. But rest assured, we, the unelected, are doing our utmost to implement agendas you didn’t vote for and we won’t talk about in public by means that would make Nixon raise an eyebrow. Seriously, we’re the real heroes here, you guys.” This. > [@Sunny Daze](#): > > Exactly. Nothing about this is good at all. A nameless cabal, running the country as they see fit, including (apparently) military leaders ignoring orders from civilian government. But there’s nothing to worry here. We’re the Good Guys. We promise!!! And this. Frankly, I can hardly think of anything that could be more destabilizing and give one less confidence in the current so-called government. There’s apparently a (awkward, untested) process for removal of a sitting President for incompetence. Whoever this supposed group of resistants is, come clean, activate the process and knock it off with the Star Chamber bullshit. ---
**Author:** ![PastTense](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pasttense/32/14550_2.png) [@PastTense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PastTense)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2018, 7:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-administration-a-clusterfuck-in-the-making/774070/25006 "2018-09-06T07:57:46Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > It’s not like anything they’re saying is out of line with the rest of what we know from this administration. Yes; they are saying stuff out of line with the rest of what we know from this administration: they are saying there are people with high moral principles in this administration. And some of us just don’t believe it: while there are lots of administration people ignoring or doing things differently from what Trump wants they are doing it for their own selfish reasons. This might range from doing something to gain favor from future employers or improve their political status in the media… ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2018, 8:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-administration-a-clusterfuck-in-the-making/774070/25007 "2018-09-06T08:31:20Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > I know, right ? Whoever wrote this clearly needs some fresh air, because he’s essentially saying “Look, we know it’s a shitshow. And we did talk about doing this by the book we pretend to revere (including in this very article), but in the end we decided that shadowy, underhanded shenanigans were more our _forte_. But rest assured, we, the unelected, are doing our utmost to implement agendas you didn’t vote for and we won’t talk about in public by means that would make Nixon raise an eyebrow. Seriously, we’re the real heroes here, you guys.” > [@Nava](#): > > Please excuse me, because it’s really early in the morning. > > POTUS behaves like a senile old man, that Op-ed says he’s beein treated by his staff like senile people are usually treated, and a lot of you are surprised? And there’s some of you who thought the people at the White House was some sort of team, when Trump’s always been poison to anything resembling teamwork? I don’t drink coffee but I may be needing some… _goes off in search of caffeine_ > [@Kolak\_of\_Twilo](#): > > And they made a pretty strong case for it too. If I had to put money on who it was Coates would be a smart bet at this point. My main reservation with him is that he has always been pretty much by the book. It could be a deputy. > > Having said that, I do find myself very uncomfortable with the President’s staff, even this President, hiding documents or swiping them off his desk in an effort to thwart him from doing things they disagree with. If they really think he is this dangerous to the country then invoke the 25th Amendment or resign and go public. Sneaking around engaging in this type of skulduggery does a lot of damage to the office of the President as well. I understand the misgivings, but this isn’t the Deep State that we’ve all been hearing about. These are Trump’s own people doing this to him. One qualification of a president is to appoint people to carry out his agenda. If We The People don’t like what those appointees do, our recourse is to throw out the bum who appointed them. The thing is, if Trump was any kind of decent manager, they couldn’t be hiding things from him of any real import. Imagine during the Obama administration if nothing about the Affordable Care Act showed up in his inbox for a few weeks. I’m pretty sure he’d have noticed. If Trump had any kind of follow-through on his promises, hiding documents wouldn’t matter; if he wanted his administration to do things, or even remembered what those things were, he’d push to see that they got done. As for this being some shadowy cabal, well, maybe they didn’t go by-the-book in invoking the 25th Amendment, but someone did announce it in the New York Times. ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2018, 8:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-administration-a-clusterfuck-in-the-making/774070/25008 "2018-09-06T08:54:30Z")
Benjamin Wittes said it best on Twitter: “I have no respect for someone who would say these things—of whose truth I have no doubt—in an anonymous oped, rather than in a public resignation letter copied to the House Judiciary Committee.” ---
**Author:** ![Tatterdemalion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/43a26b/32.png) [@Tatterdemalion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tatterdemalion)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2018, 9:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-administration-a-clusterfuck-in-the-making/774070/25009 "2018-09-06T09:25:18Z")
> [@Jack\_Batty](#): > > Benjamin Wittes said it best on Twitter: > > “I have no respect for someone who would say these things—of whose truth I have no doubt—in an anonymous oped, rather than in a public resignation letter copied to the House Judiciary Committee.” Absolutely. And when whoever it is finds his name released, and is, as a result, unemployed, he will try to tell us that he is the real victim here. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2018, 9:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-administration-a-clusterfuck-in-the-making/774070/25010 "2018-09-06T09:57:09Z")
> [@Jack\_Batty](#): > > Benjamin Wittes said it best on Twitter: > > “I have no respect for someone who would say these things—of whose truth I have no doubt—in an anonymous oped, rather than in a public resignation letter copied to the House Judiciary Committee.” On average, despite statements otherwise, Trump didn’t hire only the best. While it may be true that the respectable and honorable strategy is elsewise, what we got is probably the closest to that, that a Trump appointee is likely to mount. Though, based on Wittes’ further statements in the Rational Security podcast that was released today (recorded before the op-ed), I think his statement about how Jim Mattis should be responding to things is fairly on-point. If Mattis wrote the op-ed, then I would be quite disappointed. If it’s Sessions or someone, though, then like I said - it’s not the cream of the crop. ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2018, 10:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-administration-a-clusterfuck-in-the-making/774070/25011 "2018-09-06T10:59:32Z")
> [@ThelmaLou](#): > > I can’t imagine that the NYT would print anything written by Pence. Don’t read the papers much, do you? Newspapers routinely print op-eds from contributors with views far off from from the editorial board’s. ---
**Author:** ![j666](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9de0a6/32.png) [@j666](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/j666)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2018, 11:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-administration-a-clusterfuck-in-the-making/774070/25012 "2018-09-06T11:33:01Z")
Another vote for “What was the Times thinking?” If this is true, it is significant news; if it is false, or misleading, it should not have been printed. Have they written an editorial on the decision to print yet? > [@silenus](#): > > Any time between now and Jan. 19, 2019. The 22nd Amendment states: _Section 1. No person shall be elected to the office of the President more than twice, and no person who has held the office of President, or acted as President, for more than two years of a term to which some other person was elected President shall be elected to the office of the President more than once._ Thanks. I think we could have expected a gradual and subtle lessening of public support for Trump by the congress, followed by impeachment hearings if the Democrats took the House. However, the op-ed will have thrown everything into a tizzy. > [@kambuckta](#): > > Where’s all the Trump defenders? Shouldn’t they be here to acknowledge that Trump has used the word ‘treason’ incorrectly? > > Or are they too gutless to admit their beloved hero is a fucking moron? I am not a defender, but I will complain no one can commit **treason** at this point. Being a **traitor** is possible; only treason is defined in the constituent, not it’s commonly associated noun, traitor. > [@Nava](#): > > Please excuse me, because it’s really early in the morning. > > POTUS behaves like a senile old man, that Op-ed says he’s beein treated by his staff like senile people are usually treated, and a lot of you are surprised? And there’s some of you who thought the people at the White House was some sort of team, when Trump’s always been poison to anything resembling teamwork? I don’t drink coffee but I may be needing some… _goes off in search of caffeine_ Yes, very much so. He isn’t just crazy Uncle Don or royalty; he is an elected and sworn head of state and servant of the people who can be openly removed from office if necessary. All of us have imagine his staff running around removing dangerous things like pens from his grasp while distracting him with bright shiny objects, but it is horribly irresponsible of his staff to do so instead of addressing the issue directly. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2018, 11:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-administration-a-clusterfuck-in-the-making/774070/25013 "2018-09-06T11:37:44Z")
> [@j666](#): > > Have they written an editorial on the decision to print yet? They did. _[It was included in the article](https://www.nytimes.com/2018/09/05/opinion/trump-white-house-anonymous-resistance.html),_ as you’d know if you read it. > [@The New York Times Editorial Board](#): > > The Times today is taking the rare step of publishing an anonymous Op-Ed essay. We have done so at the request of the author, a senior official in the Trump administration whose identity is known to us and whose job would be jeopardized by its disclosure. We believe publishing this essay anonymously is the only way to deliver an important perspective to our readers. We invite you to submit a question about the essay or our vetting process [here](https://www.nytimes.com/2018/09/05/reader-center/oped-questions.html). ---
**Author:** ![Frodo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/frodo/32/302_2.png) [@Frodo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frodo)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2018, 11:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-administration-a-clusterfuck-in-the-making/774070/25014 "2018-09-06T11:39:20Z")
> [@jsc1953](#): > > Or it might have been Hunter S Thompson. I get them confused. Quick mnemonic tip to differentiate them: Thompson never nuked anyone. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2018, 11:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-administration-a-clusterfuck-in-the-making/774070/25015 "2018-09-06T11:50:23Z")
A woman with a Slovenian accent, maybe? I gotta go with Kelly or Mattis, perhaps one of their deputies. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2018, 11:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-administration-a-clusterfuck-in-the-making/774070/25016 "2018-09-06T11:55:09Z")
Betting markets (at least PredictIt) bettors think it’s Coats. On the day the op-ed came out, the betting line for “Will DNI Coats still be DNI at the end of 2018” went from ~90 to ~40. ---
**Author:** ![Baal\_Houtham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baal_houtham/32/13604_2.png) [@Baal\_Houtham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baal_Houtham)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2018, 11:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-administration-a-clusterfuck-in-the-making/774070/25017 "2018-09-06T11:55:48Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > My personal guess would be that Lodestar (which is what I’m going to call him/her until we have a better idea of who the author is) decided to put this out there as kind of a trial balloon to see how the public would react to the idea of a 25th Amendment action. Agree, pretty much. A lot of the White House guys are _Politicians_ and understand that building consensus is the basic skill of their job. Just resigning and complaining won’t be as effective as reducing Trump’s base of support — and the editorial has a chance of lowering Trump’s support among Republican politicians. Which could trickle down to some semi-rational conservative voters. The editorial can be viewed, as you suggest, as a very visible trial balloon for removal of the Prez. But Trump’s popularity needs to fall a bit more in order to make that a viable alternative. If removal was attempted now, with Trump’s approval rating around 40%, there would be chaos and probably violence. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2018, 12:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-administration-a-clusterfuck-in-the-making/774070/25018 "2018-09-06T12:11:15Z")
> [@j666](#): > > Yes, very much so. He isn’t just crazy Uncle Don or royalty; he is an elected and sworn head of state and servant of the people who can be openly removed from office if necessary. That describes some forms of royalty as well; right now I’m drawing blanks on several of the monarchs of Spanish kingdoms who were procedurally and pacifically removed from office but I know there were more than Sancho el Craso (removed because he was busier hunting down the kitchen than doing his job, lost half his body weight and was allowed to retake the throne). The one thing that kind of surprises me is the coming out and saying it but not quite out loud, but then, that’s exactly the kind of behavior we see from the Trump administration (a lot of the time they opt for its sister, “loud and blatant but unclear to anybody who’s been living on the moon”). Speaking on the record and clearly seems something they all have problems doing. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2018, 12:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-administration-a-clusterfuck-in-the-making/774070/25019 "2018-09-06T12:31:57Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > A woman with a Slovenian accent, maybe? > > I gotta go with Kelly or Mattis, perhaps one of their deputies. Completely speculative guess, but I go with the guy that carries the nuclear football. He’d see most of this stuff, and he would be the single most nervous person about having trump in his chain of command. He has no power to do anything about trump, and resigning means handing the football to someone who maybe won’t dive out a window rather than hand it over if trump asks for it. ---
**Author:** ![Chip\_Dundas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b5a626/32.png) [@Chip\_Dundas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chip_Dundas)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2018, 12:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-administration-a-clusterfuck-in-the-making/774070/25020 "2018-09-06T12:45:55Z")
Here is the root of this op ed problem. The President seems to ask a lot of questions on policy because he is new to it as a non politician and outsider. While the establishment goes crazy over his questions and says they are unhinghed, I believe they are healthy to have these discussions to educate him and to make people think outside the box. But this is the high school douchebaggery down in DC that people hate. The career folks are the worst. They are know it alls. ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2018, 12:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-administration-a-clusterfuck-in-the-making/774070/25021 "2018-09-06T12:53:36Z")
At least you admit the guy is both completely unprepared and uneducated for the position he holds, Chip. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Red\_Wiggler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/red_wiggler/32/13190_2.png) [@Red\_Wiggler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Red_Wiggler)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2018, 12:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-administration-a-clusterfuck-in-the-making/774070/25022 "2018-09-06T12:54:33Z")
> [@j666](#): > > I understand the 25th amendment was raised in the NYT op-ed. How long does Trump have to be in office for Pence to get two additional full terms. > > A big Democratic win could be the best thing for the GOP - let the Dems get rid of Trump and have Pence for ten years. This presumes that Mike Dense could win an election for president on his own. And while the nation proved in 2016 that it would indeed elect an idiot, the Veep isn’t really the type of idiot who motivates the idiots who vote for idiots. ---
**Author:** ![Red\_Wiggler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/red_wiggler/32/13190_2.png) [@Red\_Wiggler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Red_Wiggler)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2018, 12:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-administration-a-clusterfuck-in-the-making/774070/25023 "2018-09-06T12:55:44Z")
> [@Chip\_Dundas](#): > > Here is the root of this op ed problem. The President seems to ask a lot of questions on policy because he is new to it as a non politician and outsider. While the establishment goes crazy over his questions and says they are unhinghed, I believe they are healthy to have these discussions to educate him and to make people think outside the box. > > But this is the high school douchebaggery down in DC that people hate. The career folks are the worst. They are know it alls. And Chip strikes another blow in the War on People Who Know Stuff! ---
**Author:** ![Eonwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eonwe/32/240_2.png) [@Eonwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eonwe)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2018, 12:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-administration-a-clusterfuck-in-the-making/774070/25024 "2018-09-06T12:58:22Z")
> [@Jack\_Batty](#): > > Benjamin Wittes said it best on Twitter: > > “I have no respect for someone who would say these things—of whose truth I have no doubt—in an anonymous oped, rather than in a public resignation letter copied to the House Judiciary Committee.” I concur with this and all other like-minded perspectives . . . . . . and yet, I also empathize with the politician who, finding themselves in the middle of the swamp, feels that they are left with two choices: speak up and quit or be fired, and be replaced by a dangerous, anti-Democracy Trump-selected know-nothing, or stay and try to preserve the Republic through this crisis. What would I do? If I felt that I was an important part of keeping America from falling into chaos, but the only way to do so was by playing a basically supporting and supportive role in all sorts of distasteful and dangerous shit? And then what, ultimately, is the difference between myself and a true acolyte? It’s a truly complicated moral calculus, and not one with a straightforward hero/villain dichotomy. What is worse for America in the long run; two (or _shudder_ six) more years of a Trump presidency, or an impeachment? Or a flight of those Republicans who feel like they’re keeping the wolves at bay (to be replaced with more enthusiastic wolves), with no impeachment? Again, I agree that the author of this letter is no hero, and is in fact engaging in some heinous action that threatens our very idea of a Democracy. However, I can also understand the conclusion that this is the lesser evil. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-administration-a-clusterfuck-in-the-making/774070.md?page=1250) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-administration-a-clusterfuck-in-the-making/774070.md?page=1252)