# The Trump Administration: A Clusterfuck in the Making **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [December 7, 2016, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-administration-a-clusterfuck-in-the-making/774070 "2016-12-07T00:25:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1291
**Author:** ![Sherrerd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sherrerd/32/8_2.png) [@Sherrerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sherrerd)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2018, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-administration-a-clusterfuck-in-the-making/774070/25805 "2018-09-23T21:47:45Z")
> [@asahi](#): > > The Germans are different today because they were crushed, dominated, and forced to understand and accept how vile they had behaved before the end of WWII. … Not really. The entire point of the Marshall Plan was to avoid making the mistake made after WW1, which _was_ “crushing” Germany. That had worked out badly. The Marshall Plan, instead, was to help Germans (and other Europeans) rebuild their nations. No crushing. True enough that there were strict rules against displaying Nazi symbols or regalia, but that doesn’t really qualify as “crushing and dominating.” > [@](#): > > Sixteen nations, including Germany, became part of the program and shaped the assistance they required, state by state, with administrative and technical assistance provided through the Economic Cooperation Administration (ECA) of the United States. European nations received nearly $13 billion in aid, which initially resulted in shipments of food, staples, fuel and machinery from the United States and later resulted in investment in industrial capacity in Europe. … > **[Life & Legacy - The George C. Marshall Foundation](https://www.marshallfoundation.org/life-legacy/)** ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2018, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-administration-a-clusterfuck-in-the-making/774070/25806 "2018-09-23T22:04:18Z")
> [@Sherrerd](#): > > Not really. The entire point of the Marshall Plan was to avoid making the mistake made after WW1, which _was_ “crushing” Germany. That had worked out badly. The Marshall Plan, instead, was to help Germans (and other Europeans) rebuild their nations. No crushing. > > True enough that there were strict rules against displaying Nazi symbols or regalia, but that doesn’t really qualify as “crushing and dominating.” I disagree. The terms Germany got after WWII were much harsher than the terms they got after WWI. ---
**Author:** ![Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/try2b_comprehensive/32/65_2.png) [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2018, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-administration-a-clusterfuck-in-the-making/774070/25807 "2018-09-23T22:13:12Z")
Debatable. I thought a part of the issue after WWI was not just the terms of the Treaty of Versailles, but that those terms took place in the tariff environment at the time, such that Germany had to raise money to pay all these reparations through exports, but there were such heavy tariffs on those exports that it made things doubly difficult. Not an expert on the history of tariffs though… There is the reciprocal tariff act of 1934, and eventually the WTO. I’ll look into it some more. ---
**Author:** ![Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/try2b_comprehensive/32/65_2.png) [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2018, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-administration-a-clusterfuck-in-the-making/774070/25808 "2018-09-23T22:22:57Z")
ETA: Tariffs were over 50% in the early 30s. Later fell below 13%. Try exporting your way out of the hole with 50% tariffs! :eek: ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2018, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-administration-a-clusterfuck-in-the-making/774070/25809 "2018-09-23T22:28:28Z")
> [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](#): > > Debatable. I don’t really see how. The territorial losses were bigger after WWII. The occupation was far longer and more extensive. Germany wasn’t allowed to keep even a token independence after WWII. There was massive forced resettlement of Germans which hadn’t occurred after WWI. And the big thing Germans complained about after WWI was the “war guilt” clause in the treaty. After WWII, it wasn’t just a symbolic gesture; there were widespread war crimes trials. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2018, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-administration-a-clusterfuck-in-the-making/774070/25810 "2018-09-23T22:30:34Z")
> [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](#): > > ETA: Tariffs were over 50% in the early 30s. Later fell below 13%. Try exporting your way out of the hole with 50% tariffs! :eek: That was fifteen years after the war. By that point, Germany had abandoned even the pretense that it was paying reparations. ---
**Author:** ![Sherrerd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sherrerd/32/8_2.png) [@Sherrerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sherrerd)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2018, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-administration-a-clusterfuck-in-the-making/774070/25811 "2018-09-23T22:50:08Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > I don’t really see how. The territorial losses were bigger after WWII. The occupation was far longer and more extensive. Germany wasn’t allowed to keep even a token independence after WWII. There was massive forced resettlement of Germans which hadn’t occurred after WWI. And the big thing Germans complained about after WWI was the “war guilt” clause in the treaty. After WWII, it wasn’t just a symbolic gesture; there were widespread war crimes trials. I suppose we’re in needs-a-new-thread territory here, and also with the associated ‘what should be done with Republicans?’ topic. But I’m not sure I buy your claims here—the war crimes trials, for example, were not trials of every German who had participated in the war. Certainly a convincing case for either side of the issue would require more than a few paragraphs posted here. Any favorite books on the subject you’d like to recommend? ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2018, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-administration-a-clusterfuck-in-the-making/774070/25812 "2018-09-23T23:49:29Z")
> [@Sherrerd](#): > > But I’m not sure I buy your claims here—the war crimes trials, for example, were not trials of every German who had participated in the war. I’m not saying the effort was absolute. But I think it’s undeniable that holding war crimes trial for a few hundred people was harsher than not trying anyone. But I do agree we’re wandering off the topic. The odds that members of the Trump administration will end up facing war crimes trials is probably less than thirty percent. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2018, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-administration-a-clusterfuck-in-the-making/774070/25813 "2018-09-24T00:17:47Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > The odds that members of the Trump administration will end up facing war crimes trials is probably less than thirty percent. Wow, optimist. ---
**Author:** ![Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/try2b_comprehensive/32/65_2.png) [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2018, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-administration-a-clusterfuck-in-the-making/774070/25814 "2018-09-24T02:02:13Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > I don’t really see how. The territorial losses were bigger after WWII. The occupation was far longer and more extensive. Germany wasn’t allowed to keep even a token independence after WWII. There was massive forced resettlement of Germans which hadn’t occurred after WWI. And the big thing Germans complained about after WWI was the “war guilt” clause in the treaty. After WWII, it wasn’t just a symbolic gesture; there were widespread war crimes trials. Look, I’ll just retract the statement. I was focusing mainly on the tariff rates and the way German outrage was fed by them and how inflamed German passions led pretty directly to WWII, at the expense of the bigger picture. Yeah, the whole occupation thing after that was pretty stern. ---
**Author:** ![JB99](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/439d5e/32.png) [@JB99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JB99)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2018, 10:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-administration-a-clusterfuck-in-the-making/774070/25815 "2018-09-24T10:33:08Z")
> [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](#): > > Look, I’ll just retract the statement. I was focusing mainly on the tariff rates and the way German outrage was fed by them and how inflamed German passions led pretty directly to WWII, at the expense of the bigger picture. Yeah, the whole occupation thing after that was pretty stern. After WW2, the Allies went to great lengths to rebuild Germany, find positive German role models, and rebuild the Bundeswehr. The goal was to turn Germany into an ally against the Soviets as fast as possible. And the Germans understood this. Literally nobody in Germany wanted the Soviets to gain even one more inch. After WW1, the goal was to fuck the Germans in every possible way. There was no existential threat to anyone in Europe, so they saw no reason to try to rehabilitate or re-arm Germany. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2018, 10:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-administration-a-clusterfuck-in-the-making/774070/25816 "2018-09-24T10:48:22Z")
> [@JB99](#): > > After WW1, the goal was to fuck the Germans in every possible way. There was no existential threat to anyone in Europe, so they saw no reason to try to rehabilitate or re-arm Germany. That’s the myth the Nazis sold, yes. And somehow it became the prevalent pop culture opinion. But the truth is, the Versailles treaty wasn’t any worse than previous peace treaties imposed by victors of the time ; and indeed even compared to treaties the Germans themselves had imposed on the Russians. Of \*course \*the point of the treaty was to deter any future aggression. But it wasn’t the strangling “Carthaginian peace” Keynes asserted it was, and in any event the Germans ignored much of it (even before the rise of the Nazis). > [@Wikipedia](#): > > The British military historian [Correlli Barnett](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Correlli_Barnett) claimed that the Treaty of Versailles was “extremely lenient in comparison with the [peace terms](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Septemberprogramm) that Germany herself, when she was expecting to win the war, had had in mind to impose on the Allies”. Furthermore, he claimed, it was “hardly a slap on the wrist” when contrasted with the [Treaty of Brest-Litovsk](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Brest-Litovsk_(Russia%E2%80%93Central_Powers)) that Germany had imposed on a defeated Russia in March 1918, which had taken away a third of Russia’s population (albeit of non-Russian ethnicity), one-half of Russia’s industrial undertakings and nine-tenths of Russia’s coal mines, coupled with an indemnity of six billion marks.[[221]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Versailles#cite_note-226) Eventually, even under the “cruel” terms of the Treaty of Versailles, Germany′s economy had been restored to its pre-war status. WW2 wasn’t caused by French revanchism. It was caused by _German_ revanchism and a sense of their own manifest destiny that had been extent since before WW1 (and, in fact, directly led to WW1 as well, according to Fischer and Peukert). ---
**Author:** ![JB99](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/439d5e/32.png) [@JB99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JB99)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2018, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-administration-a-clusterfuck-in-the-making/774070/25817 "2018-09-24T13:48:49Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > That’s the myth the Nazis sold, yes. And somehow it became the prevalent pop culture opinion. (A) This is false. Even at the time, there were prominent people who predicted that the terms of the peace were excessively harsh. (B) Go fuck yourself, dickhead. If you’re going to tell me I am wrong, at least have the decency to tell me that MY ideas are wrong, instead of accusing me of repeating Nazi tropes. ---
**Author:** ![dasmoocher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/dbc845/32.png) [@dasmoocher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dasmoocher)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2018, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-administration-a-clusterfuck-in-the-making/774070/25818 "2018-09-24T14:46:42Z")
CNN is now reporting Rosenstein expects he is getting fired soon. On TV, so no link. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2018, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-administration-a-clusterfuck-in-the-making/774070/25819 "2018-09-24T14:52:10Z")
Axios just tweeted that Rosenstein is resigning. ---
**Author:** ![dasmoocher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/dbc845/32.png) [@dasmoocher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dasmoocher)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2018, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-administration-a-clusterfuck-in-the-making/774070/25820 "2018-09-24T14:52:30Z")
> [@dasmoocher](#): > > CNN is now reporting Rosenstein expects he is getting fired soon. > > On TV, so no link. CNN’s Kaitlan Collins now saying Rosenstein has submitted his resignation. Probably, before getting fired by Trump is the reason. ---
**Author:** ![dasmoocher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/dbc845/32.png) [@dasmoocher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dasmoocher)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2018, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-administration-a-clusterfuck-in-the-making/774070/25821 "2018-09-24T14:55:59Z")
Now, the question is who will Trump pick to get rid of the meddlesome priest Mueller. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2018, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-administration-a-clusterfuck-in-the-making/774070/25822 "2018-09-24T14:58:11Z")
Oooh, twist – NBC’s Pete Williams has reported that Rosenstein is _not_ resigning, forcing the WH to fire him. ---
**Author:** ![dasmoocher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/dbc845/32.png) [@dasmoocher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dasmoocher)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2018, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-administration-a-clusterfuck-in-the-making/774070/25823 "2018-09-24T15:08:20Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Oooh, twist – NBC’s Pete Williams has reported that Rosenstein is _not_ resigning, forcing the WH to fire him. Yeah, CNN reporting Rosenstein is still in, but maybe due to some of his conditions to resign not being met by White House. Where’s my popcorn? ---
**Author:** ![davidm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidm/32/225_2.png) [@davidm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidm)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2018, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-administration-a-clusterfuck-in-the-making/774070/25824 "2018-09-24T15:21:06Z")
MSNBC is reporting that Rosenstein is heading to the Whitehouse where he will be asked to resign and that he will refuse to do so; that Trump will have to fire him if he wants him out. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-administration-a-clusterfuck-in-the-making/774070.md?page=1290) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-administration-a-clusterfuck-in-the-making/774070.md?page=1292)