# The Trump Administration: A Clusterfuck in the Making **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [December 7, 2016, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-administration-a-clusterfuck-in-the-making/774070 "2016-12-07T00:25:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1594
**Author:** ![DesertDog](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/desertdog/32/11503_2.png) [@DesertDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DesertDog)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2019, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-administration-a-clusterfuck-in-the-making/774070/31865 "2019-04-11T14:53:44Z")
> [@JohnT](#): > > That hotel does look like a butt plug. > > … or so I’ve heard. I was looking at the negative space and thinking yoni, personally. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2019, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-administration-a-clusterfuck-in-the-making/774070/31866 "2019-04-11T15:14:03Z")
Rachel’s own reference was to the work of Georgia O’Keefe. ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2019, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-administration-a-clusterfuck-in-the-making/774070/31867 "2019-04-11T15:31:57Z")
> [@Skywatcher](#): > > [Overall refunds are down _because_ of the overhaul](https://www.nytimes.com/2019/02/12/your-money/tax-refund-decrease.html) and Rettig is trying to pass the situation off as being normal. It’s pretty darn normal. $6B is a 3% difference and is spread out over more than 70M returns. You still haven’t explained why anyone should care about this. Please don’t tell us you’re one of those people who thinks a smaller refund means your taxes went up. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2019, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-administration-a-clusterfuck-in-the-making/774070/31868 "2019-04-11T15:38:02Z")
> [@Ruken](#): > > It’s pretty darn normal. $6B is a 3% difference and is spread out over more than 70M returns. > > You still haven’t explained why anyone should care about this. [Trump’s lapdog is glossing over the fact that fewer people, presumably middle-class, are getting refunds this year.](https://www.cbsnews.com/news/tax-returns-2019-tax-refunds-so-far-this-year-are-down-by-6-billion/) ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2019, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-administration-a-clusterfuck-in-the-making/774070/31869 "2019-04-11T15:56:56Z")
Funny how nobody else seems to have a problem with comprehending that notion or why it’s in this thread. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2019, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-administration-a-clusterfuck-in-the-making/774070/31870 "2019-04-11T15:59:22Z")
People were supposed to have higher take-home pay, and feel good, until \*after \*the midterm elections, when they’d find out they’d been fooled. Same reason they crowed about raising the standard deduction but kept quiet about eliminating the personal exemption. ---
**Author:** ![Fiveyearlurker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/da6949/32.png) [@Fiveyearlurker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiveyearlurker)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2019, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-administration-a-clusterfuck-in-the-making/774070/31871 "2019-04-11T16:02:59Z")
> [@Ruken](#): > > It’s pretty darn normal. $6B is a 3% difference and is spread out over more than 70M returns. > > You still haven’t explained why anyone should care about this. Please don’t tell us you’re one of those people who thinks a smaller refund means your taxes went up. My tax rate went up by about 5% year over year this year. I care that the Republican Party raised my taxes and will still pretend that they are the party of low taxes the same way they still pretend to be the party of small government and moral character. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2019, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-administration-a-clusterfuck-in-the-making/774070/31872 "2019-04-11T16:03:46Z")
> [@Skywatcher](#): > > [Trump’s lapdog is glossing over the fact that fewer people, presumably middle-class, are getting refunds this year.](https://www.cbsnews.com/news/tax-returns-2019-tax-refunds-so-far-this-year-are-down-by-6-billion/) On the other hand: > [@](#): > > Lower refunds don’t mean Americans paid more taxes—quite the opposite. Most workers paid less in taxes last year and saw higher take-home pay week in and week out. But for many Americans, a slightly higher paycheck doesn’t quite have the same visibility as a single $3,000 check in March or April. I do not, in the least, support Trump, but the amount of the refund is not the same as the amount of taxes paid. Ideally, IMHO, you want to hew as close to $0 refund as possible, or even owing the government money, as that means you weren’t giving them an interest-free loan for the better part of a year, but I’m sure I’m in the minority as far as that goes. Whenever I get a big refund, that means I overpaid and/or business was down over the previous year. When I owe money on April 15, that’s a good sign for me. ---
**Author:** ![Biotop](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biotop/32/321_2.png) [@Biotop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biotop)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2019, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-administration-a-clusterfuck-in-the-making/774070/31873 "2019-04-11T16:04:55Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > People were supposed to have higher take-home pay, and feel good, until \*after \*the midterm elections, when they’d find out they’d been fooled. Same reason they crowed about raising the standard deduction but kept quiet about eliminating the personal exemption. Wasn’t there supposed to be some additional big middle-class tax cut Republicans were working on just prior to last November’s midterm election? Whatever happened to that? ---
**Author:** ![jsc1953](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/5daacb/32.png) [@jsc1953](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jsc1953)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2019, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-administration-a-clusterfuck-in-the-making/774070/31874 "2019-04-11T16:18:17Z")
> [@Ruken](#): > > It’s pretty darn normal. $6B is a 3% difference and is spread out over more than 70M returns. > > You still haven’t explained why anyone should care about this. Please don’t tell us you’re one of those people who thinks a smaller refund means your taxes went up. My taxes absolutely went up. I live in California; my state income tax + property tax is about $38,000. In 2017 I was able to deduct that full amount; in 2018 it was capped at $10,000. That’s an additional $28k in taxable income, which equates to an extra $5k in taxes. ---
**Author:** ![davidm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidm/32/225_2.png) [@davidm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidm)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2019, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-administration-a-clusterfuck-in-the-making/774070/31875 "2019-04-11T17:10:25Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > On the other hand: > > I do not, in the least, support Trump, but the amount of the refund is not the same as the amount of taxes paid. Ideally, IMHO, you want to hew as close to $0 refund as possible, or even owing the government money, as that means you weren’t giving them an interest-free loan for the better part of a year, but I’m sure I’m in the minority as far as that goes. Whenever I get a big refund, that means I overpaid and/or business was down over the previous year. When I owe money on April 15, that’s a good sign for me. Ditto. Other than recently (not working due to health issues) I’ve nearly always owed some small amount, usually 2 figures, because I’ve always had near the correct amount deducted. I’ve never understood why people want to use the government as a no interest savings account. ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2019, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-administration-a-clusterfuck-in-the-making/774070/31876 "2019-04-11T17:50:05Z")
> [@Fiveyearlurker](#): > > My tax rate went up by about 5% year over year this year. I care that the Republican Party raised my taxes and will still pretend that they are the party of low taxes the same way they still pretend to be the party of small government and moral character. > [@jsc1953](#): > > My taxes absolutely went up. I live in California; my state income tax + property tax is about $38,000. In 2017 I was able to deduct that full amount; in 2018 it was capped at $10,000. That’s an additional $28k in taxable income, which equates to an extra $5k in taxes. Both legitimate gripes. The tax change was, IMO, poor policy. But that has nothing to do with the refund situation, which is largely a result of changes to the withholdings tables. ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2019, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-administration-a-clusterfuck-in-the-making/774070/31877 "2019-04-11T17:55:28Z")
> [@Skywatcher](#): > > [Trump’s lapdog is glossing over the fact that fewer people, presumably middle-class, are getting refunds this year.](https://www.cbsnews.com/news/tax-returns-2019-tax-refunds-so-far-this-year-are-down-by-6-billion/) > [@Skywatcher](#): > > Funny how nobody else seems to have a problem with comprehending that notion or why it’s in this thread. Getting a smaller refund is not, in and of itself, a problem. It is not indicative of one’s taxes going up or down. It’s not clear that you understand this. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2019, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-administration-a-clusterfuck-in-the-making/774070/31878 "2019-04-11T17:55:44Z")
> [@Biotop](#): > > Wasn’t there supposed to be some additional big middle-class tax cut Republicans were working on just prior to last November’s midterm election? Whatever happened to that? The same thing that happened to their health care plan. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2019, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-administration-a-clusterfuck-in-the-making/774070/31879 "2019-04-11T17:58:54Z")
> [@Ruken](#): > > Getting a smaller refund is not, in and of itself, a problem. Numerically, no. Psychologically, yes. In politics, which matters more? ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2019, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-administration-a-clusterfuck-in-the-making/774070/31880 "2019-04-11T18:02:06Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Numerically, no. Psychologically, yes. In politics, which matters more? Psychologically, no, unless you’re an idiot. I’ll take my money when I earn it, thanks. Not next Spring. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2019, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-administration-a-clusterfuck-in-the-making/774070/31881 "2019-04-11T18:02:56Z")
[Gaslighter in Chief does it again!](https://www.politico.com/story/2019/04/11/trump-julian-assange-wikileaks-1269954) (Wikileaks) ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2019, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-administration-a-clusterfuck-in-the-making/774070/31882 "2019-04-11T18:05:18Z")
> [@Ruken](#): > > Getting a smaller refund is not, in and of itself, a problem. It is not indicative of one’s taxes going up or down. It’s not clear that you understand this. Either you’re deliberately missing my point or having comprehension trouble. I’m done. ---
**Author:** ![naita](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/naita/32/5862_2.png) [@naita](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/naita)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2019, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-administration-a-clusterfuck-in-the-making/774070/31883 "2019-04-11T18:10:19Z")
> [@Skywatcher](#): > > [Trump’s lapdog is glossing over the fact that fewer people, presumably middle-class, are getting refunds this year.](https://www.cbsnews.com/news/tax-returns-2019-tax-refunds-so-far-this-year-are-down-by-6-billion/) “the average refund, at $2,873, is only $20 less than it was last year” So even if it was a deliberate trick to change the withholding tables to make people think the tax cut was better for them than it actually was, it’s not like we’re talking big bucks here. And I’m sure a lot of individuals saw a larger reduction (while some got a larger refund), but if you expect your state-sponsoring savings scheme to stay stable through a major tax reform there probably is only one way to educate you on the importance of paying serious attention to your tax rate and withholding rate. ---
**Author:** ![Buck\_Godot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/buck_godot/32/6573_2.png) [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2019, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-administration-a-clusterfuck-in-the-making/774070/31884 "2019-04-11T18:19:14Z")
> [@Skywatcher](#): > > [Overall refunds are down _because_ of the overhaul](https://www.nytimes.com/2019/02/12/your-money/tax-refund-decrease.html) and Rettig is trying to pass the situation off as being normal. But this was to be expected even if the tax reform was good for the average Joe. The cutting part of the tax plan involved an increase in the standard deduction and reduction of the overall tax rate. These are the things that government know about for every citizen and so can use to get a pretty good guess for withholding. As a result people generally got a bit more in their pay check each month. But these were countered by the elimination of certain deductions which the government can’t account for in their withholding. So that only comes up around April 15th when people actually start counting what they owe. This is where the tax reform package is going to bite the GOP in the ass. Consider some Joe who actually benefited from the tax code. Due to the change in the standar deduction and standard rates his paycheck each week maybe had an additional $30 in it. Basically enough to take the family out to Micky D’s but not much else. Then come April 15th when he finds that he can no longer deduct his state taxes, and his charitable contributions are no longer worth reporting, he ends up with owing Uncle Sam $1,000 more than he did last year. Even though across the year he netted $560 more, we won’t remember the extra value meals, he’ll remember scrambling to come up with the extra $1,000 bucks. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-administration-a-clusterfuck-in-the-making/774070.md?page=1593) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-administration-a-clusterfuck-in-the-making/774070.md?page=1595)