# The Trump Administration: A Clusterfuck in the Making **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [December 7, 2016, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-administration-a-clusterfuck-in-the-making/774070 "2016-12-07T00:25:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1734
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2019, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-administration-a-clusterfuck-in-the-making/774070/34665 "2019-07-19T17:39:41Z")
> [@Muffin](#): > > Ethically, what the CPB did was no different than kidnapping children for ransom. Well, to be correct, it was worse than kidnapping children for ransom. According to your site: “If no one is available to take responsibility for the child, the airline may have to turn over the child to the local authorities” Would it similarly be kidnapping if local authorities held the kids until a parent or guardian showed up? What about if the airline held the kids until a parent or guardian showed up? Would that be kidnapping? ---
**Author:** ![Great\_Antibob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Great\_Antibob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Great_Antibob)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2019, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-administration-a-clusterfuck-in-the-making/774070/34666 "2019-07-19T17:42:49Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > Would it similarly be kidnapping if local authorities held the kids until a parent or guardian showed up? > > What about if the airline held the kids until a parent or guardian showed up? Would that be kidnapping? Did you read the post you are citing? The airlines are acting in loco parentis, i.e. they are making the decisions in lieu of the parents. It’s not kidnapping, because the parents have explicitly put their kids in the hands of the airlines. If the airline held the kids until the parent (or duly notarized alternate) showed up, that’s precisely their responsibility and something that should be outlined in their corporate policy before the parents put their kids in the hands of the airline. ETA: If the airline held the kids in violation of their own policies, well, yes, that could be construed as kidnapping. The point is, there’s a procedure involved, and there’s no reasonable world in which CBP should be inserting themselves in that process. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2019, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-administration-a-clusterfuck-in-the-making/774070/34667 "2019-07-19T17:43:42Z")
More than zero, the number of desperate parents who have gotten their children over the border, and then “abandoned” them to the care and comfort of America. Which is better than MS-13 pimps and gangs. How many more than zero, when one is too many? Cry, the beloved country. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2019, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-administration-a-clusterfuck-in-the-making/774070/34668 "2019-07-19T17:45:41Z")
> [@Great\_Antibob](#): > > Seriously? You’re that dumb that you thought it was reasonable for what is basically outside security to basically hold kids hostage until their parents showed up? It’s actually kind of shocking that your first reaction was that this wasn’t unreasonable. I’m pretty sure that it’s reasonable for law enforcement and other similar agencies to hold children until their parents show up. I’m pretty sure that happens across the country thousands of times per day. I don’t see a lot of headlines similar to “Local police kidnap children until their parents show up to get them” or “Principal holds child hostage until parents arrive at school” I personally don’t see much difference between an airline holding kids until a parent shows up, or CBP holding them until a parent shows up. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2019, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-administration-a-clusterfuck-in-the-making/774070/34669 "2019-07-19T17:57:07Z")
> [@Myxlpltt](#): > > I am more and than a a little uncomfortable that we have CBP at airports demanding documents from people flying from specific countries…We all know there is a migration crisis around the whole…besides just here in the U.S. Many of us disagree on how to handle the crisis …but the idea that we are stormtroopering around like this …just feels wrong Ever since 9/11 this whole country has been in military mode. Military at the airports. Military at border crossings. Militarized police forces in cities across the country. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2019, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-administration-a-clusterfuck-in-the-making/774070/34670 "2019-07-19T17:57:38Z")
> [@Great\_Antibob](#): > > Did you read the post you are citing? > > The airlines are acting in loco parentis, i.e. they are making the decisions in lieu of the parents. It’s not kidnapping, because the parents have explicitly put their kids in the hands of the airlines. > > If the airline held the kids until the parent (or duly notarized alternate) showed up, that’s precisely their responsibility and something that should be outlined in their corporate policy before the parents put their kids in the hands of the airline. > > ETA: If the airline held the kids in violation of their own policies, well, yes, that could be construed as kidnapping. The point is, there’s a procedure involved, and there’s no reasonable world in which CBP should be inserting themselves in that process. My guess is that the children were travelling with an adult, and the airline just let them leave the plane like they do with every other passenger. Then all 4 of them went do the CBP checkpoint without any airline representatives, because they didn’t need any. Once they got there, CBP determined somehow that the adult couldn’t enter the country. Now, the kids are there without any airline representative nor adult to go with them. At this point, what is CBP supposed to do? Let them go on their way at 3 AM? Call the airline? Call the parents? I think it’s perfectly reasonable for CBP to try and contact the parents of the children and have them come pick the kids up and have the kids wait there until the parent shows up. I have absolutely no idea why the Mexican Consulate would be involved in 3 American Citizen children waiting for a parent or guardian to pick them up. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2019, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-administration-a-clusterfuck-in-the-making/774070/34671 "2019-07-19T17:59:35Z")
> [@Myxlpltt](#): > > I am more and than a a little uncomfortable that we have CBP at airports demanding documents from people flying from specific countries…We all know there is a migration crisis around the whole…besides just here in the U.S. Many of us disagree on how to handle the crisis …but the idea that we are stormtroopering around like this …just feels wrong You mean, like a passport and a valid visa for entry?😕 ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2019, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-administration-a-clusterfuck-in-the-making/774070/34672 "2019-07-19T18:09:51Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > I have absolutely no idea why the Mexican Consulate would be involved in 3 American Citizen children waiting for a parent **or guardian** to pick them up. I don’t think the bolded part applies to this situation, tho, and that’s why it’s a problem: CBP would not release the kids to a guardian, only the parents… who happened to be people they were trying to apprehend. They used the kids as bait; there was no actual concern for the welfare of the children. ---
**Author:** ![enipla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/54ee81/32.png) [@enipla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enipla)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2019, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-administration-a-clusterfuck-in-the-making/774070/34673 "2019-07-19T18:13:04Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > I don’t think the bolded part applies to this situation, tho, and that’s why it’s a problem: CBP would not release the kids to a guardian, only the parents… who happened to be people they were trying to apprehend. They used the kids as bait; there was no actual concern for the welfare of the children. “Come get your kids… If you dare” ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2019, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-administration-a-clusterfuck-in-the-making/774070/34674 "2019-07-19T18:14:13Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > I’m pretty sure that it’s reasonable for law enforcement and other similar agencies to hold children until their parents show up. I’m pretty sure that happens across the country thousands of times per day. I don’t see a lot of headlines similar to “Local police kidnap children until their parents show up to get them” or “Principal holds child hostage until parents arrive at school” > > I personally don’t see much difference between an airline holding kids until a parent shows up, or CBP holding them until a parent shows up. This isn’t something that’s just happening. Trump and his administration knowingly made choices which are causing the family break-ups. So they bear the moral responsibility for the consequences of their choices. As you note, there are circumstances where a child must be separated from their parents. So the question we should be asking in those circumstances is whether the separation is justified. Is there a sufficiently good reason to require us to take the step of breaking up a family. And in this case, there is not. Having crossed the border illegally in the past is not a big enough crime that it justified harming children. Finally, there’s the issue of doing harmful things in the least harmful way; when you have to do something bad, you do it in the way that is least bad. The Trump administration has failed at this. They knew that they were going to be rounding up thousands of people but they failed to make plans on how they were going to hold all those people in adequate conditions. They knew they were going to be taking children into custody but they failed to make plans on how they would adequately care for those children. They knew they would be separating children from their families but they failed to make plans for how they would keep track of which children were part of which family. (It’s called fingerprinting and it’s 19th century technology.) And knowing that they we’re ready, the Trump administration went ahead with the round up anyway. Normal people understand all this is wrong. But to put it in terms a conservative can understand, it’s like back in the nineties when you people claimed that the Clinton administration was going to lock people up in camps. Except this is real. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2019, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-administration-a-clusterfuck-in-the-making/774070/34675 "2019-07-19T18:16:26Z")
> [@Myxlpltt](#): > > I am more and than a a little uncomfortable that we have CBP at airports demanding documents from people flying from specific countries…We all know there is a migration crisis around the whole…besides just here in the U.S. Many of us disagree on how to handle the crisis …but the idea that we are stormtroopering around like this …just feels wrong In 2017, CBP was checking IDs of every passenger getting off a domestic flight. > **[Customs Officers Demand ID From Passengers Leaving Domestic Flight At JFK](https://www.huffpost.com/entry/passengers-disembarking-domestic-delta-flight-asked-to-show-id-to-federal-agents_n_58afea33e4b060480e06a435)** > > U.S. Customs and Border Protection confirmed they were searching for an undocumented immigrant. They were sued by the ACLU, and no longer do that. But it just shows how far they will go to test the public’s willingness to submit to authoritarian tactics. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2019, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-administration-a-clusterfuck-in-the-making/774070/34676 "2019-07-19T18:17:15Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > I don’t think the bolded part applies to this situation, tho, and that’s why it’s a problem: CBP would not release the kids to a guardian, only the parents… who happened to be people they were trying to apprehend. They used the kids as bait; there was no actual concern for the welfare of the children. I tried to find out what documentation the guardians who showed up had, but that type of detail is scarce. As far as bait, I’m not seeing it. When do you think this trap was set up? 3 US Citizens show up at CBP, and then CBP somehow knows that their mother is here illegally, and then decide right then and there to set a trap to lure an illegal immigrant to the airport so they can arrest her? ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2019, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-administration-a-clusterfuck-in-the-making/774070/34677 "2019-07-19T18:18:55Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > This isn’t something that’s just happening. Trump and his administration knowingly made choices which are causing the family break-ups. So they bear the moral responsibility for the consequences of their choices. > > As you note, there are circumstances where a child must be separated from their parents. So the question we should be asking in those circumstances is whether the separation is justified. Is there a sufficiently good reason to require us to take the step of breaking up a family. And in this case, there is not. Having crossed the border illegally in the past is not a big enough crime that it justified harming children. > > Finally, there’s the issue of doing harmful things in the least harmful way; when you have to do something bad, you do it in the way that is least bad. The Trump administration has failed at this. They knew that they were going to be rounding up thousands of people but they failed to make plans on how they were going to hold all those people in adequate conditions. They knew they were going to be taking children into custody but they failed to make plans on how they would adequately care for those children. They knew they would be separating children from their families but they failed to make plans for how they would keep track of which children were part of which family. (It’s called fingerprinting and it’s 19th century technology.) And knowing that they we’re ready, the Trump administration went ahead with the round up anyway. > > Normal people understand all this is wrong. But to put it in terms a conservative can understand, it’s like back in the nineties when you people claimed that the Clinton administration was going to lock people up in camps. Except this is real. Thank you for this impassioned response that has absolutely nothing to do with the story at hand. ---
**Author:** ![Rick\_Kitchen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rick_kitchen/32/522_2.png) [@Rick\_Kitchen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick_Kitchen)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2019, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-administration-a-clusterfuck-in-the-making/774070/34678 "2019-07-19T18:20:24Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > I don’t understand. Is it normal for 9, 10, and 13 year old children to just be sent on their way without a parent picking them up? They were with their aunt. ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2019, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-administration-a-clusterfuck-in-the-making/774070/34679 "2019-07-19T18:21:00Z")
To give us a pause in the great child debate, I give you for your shock and amusement, Trump meeting with 2018 Nobel Peace Prize laureate Nadia Murad in the Oval Office: > **["You had the Nobel Prize?" The White House Squatter Meets Nadia Murad, And...](https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2019/7/19/1872963/--You-had-the-Nobel-Prize-The-White-House-Squatter-Meets-Nadia-Murad-And-It-s-Excruciating?utm_campaign=trending)** > > Refugees and survivors of international religious persecution met with Donald Trump, the one man who could not care less about their lives, yesterday, and, as usual, his lack of empathy combined with his overwhelming ignorance made for a truly... > [@](#): > > \*\*“You had the Nobel Prize?” The White House Squatter Meets Nadia Murad, And It’s Excruciating \*\* > > Refugees and survivors of international religious persecution met with Donald Trump, the one man who could not care less about their lives, yesterday, and, as usual, his lack of empathy combined with his overwhelming ignorance made for a truly appalling event. > The worst part was his exchange with Nadia Murad, the Iraqi who escaped ISIS and is an activist in preventing sexual assault. She told him her harrowing story, which Trump would interrupt with stupid questions. Example: > > Murad: All of this happened to me. They killed my mum, my six brothers… > > Trump: Where are they now? > > -Murad: “They Killed them…they are in the mass graves in Sinjar” > [Trump nods…] > … > Nothing was worse than his questions about her Nobel prize win. “And you had the Nobel Prize? That’s incredible. They gave it to you for what reason?” Well…yeah! Exchanging love letters with the world’s worst despot doesn’t get it? As one viewer commented : “What’s really appalling is the look on his face after she explains this to him. Then, when she’s done, he cheerfully pipes up “and you got a Nobel Prize?” The pained look on her face when he chirps that is hard to watch. He simply lacks the part of the brain capable of empathy.” ---
**Author:** ![Rick\_Kitchen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rick_kitchen/32/522_2.png) [@Rick\_Kitchen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick_Kitchen)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2019, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-administration-a-clusterfuck-in-the-making/774070/34680 "2019-07-19T18:24:49Z")
July 19, 2019 The Individual 1 administration floated the possibility of admitting zero refugees next year during a recent meeting with officials from the Department of Homeland Security, State Department, the Pentagon and other agencies, according to sources familiar with the meeting. > **[Trump administration weighs allowing no refugees into US next year | CNN...](https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2019/07/19/politics/trump-admin-zero-refugees/index.html)** > > The Trump administration floated the possibility of admitting zero refugees next year during a recent meeting with officials from the Department of Homeland Security, State Department, the Pentagon and other agencies, according to sources familiar... ---
**Author:** ![bobot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bobot/32/21622_2.png) [@bobot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bobot)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2019, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-administration-a-clusterfuck-in-the-making/774070/34681 "2019-07-19T18:26:08Z")
> [@CalMeacham](#): > > To give us a pause in the great child debate, … Oh hell, that was no debate. Thanks for shaking it up! ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2019, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-administration-a-clusterfuck-in-the-making/774070/34682 "2019-07-19T18:27:15Z")
> [@Rick\_Kitchen](#): > > They were with their aunt. Their aunt was denied entry. So yes, they would have been sent on their way at 3 AM without a parent or guardian. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2019, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-administration-a-clusterfuck-in-the-making/774070/34683 "2019-07-19T18:28:55Z")
Yeah, that sudden look of pain mixed with disbelief, disappointment, confusion and some more pain on top is truly haunting. Especially in juxtaposition with Trump’s “yes, yes, uh-uh, yadda yadda” expression. ETA : that was in reply to **CalMeacham** ’s post obviously ---
**Author:** ![Rick\_Kitchen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rick_kitchen/32/522_2.png) [@Rick\_Kitchen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick_Kitchen)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2019, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-administration-a-clusterfuck-in-the-making/774070/34684 "2019-07-19T18:42:02Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > Their aunt was denied entry. So yes, they would have been sent on their way at 3 AM without a parent or guardian. So convenient that their aunt was denied entry. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-administration-a-clusterfuck-in-the-making/774070.md?page=1733) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-administration-a-clusterfuck-in-the-making/774070.md?page=1735)