# The Trump Administration: A Clusterfuck in the Making **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [December 7, 2016, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-administration-a-clusterfuck-in-the-making/774070 "2016-12-07T00:25:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1861
**Author:** ![Rick\_Kitchen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rick_kitchen/32/522_2.png) [@Rick\_Kitchen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick_Kitchen)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2019, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-administration-a-clusterfuck-in-the-making/774070/37205 "2019-09-29T02:17:16Z")
Military man formerly charged with being responsible for Army communications at Mar a Lago received probation Friday for lying to federal agents during a child pornography investigation. [https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/wireStory/mar-lago-army-officer-lied-child-porn-investigation-65928203](https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/wireStory/mar-lago-army-officer-lied-child-porn-investigation-65928203)? ---
**Author:** ![Mike\_Mabes](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mike_mabes/32/1782_2.png) [@Mike\_Mabes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mike_Mabes)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2019, 3:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-administration-a-clusterfuck-in-the-making/774070/37206 "2019-09-29T03:31:54Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > Ukraine is an ally and, that we know, he was working with their politicians not their military. > > In the case of Russia, we currently have them under [siege](https://publius2point0.wordpress.com/2018/08/16/siege/) (i.e. restricting the supply chains in and out of the country) and are supplying their enemies with armaments to use against them. If he was working with them, that would have been with the intelligence directorate of the Russian army (the GRU). > > In either case, the aim would have been to prevent the proper functioning of the US election. Doing so is, essentially, the same as performing a coup. It just happens to be a form of coup where it’s not as obvious that it occurred. > > It is fair to call a coup a “taking up of arms against the US”, regardless of whether arms were involved. If you tie up the old king and secret him out of the country, all with no weapons used, that’s still a coup. If you hire people to treat the king like he’s going crazy, and convince him to abdicate, that’s still [a coup](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soft_coup). > > If you’re extorting an ally to provide you with the materials you need in order to execute your coup, that’s probably not treason from the standard of “working with an enemy”. The ally was also a victim. > > If you are collaborating with an enemy power to provide you with the material you need to execute your coup, and particularly if you are working with a branch of their military, you have committed treason. > > But minus a foreign power aiding you, even though you might be trying to execute a coup, it’s not treason under the standard of the Constitution. > > I assume that this would be the relevant statute: > > [18 U.S. Code § 2384 - Seditious conspiracy | U.S. Code | US Law | LII / Legal Information Institute](https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/2384) > > So the word would be… Seditionist? What do we call this, other than bullshit? Let them investigate, they’re not going to find anything State Dept is contacting former State Dept workers about Hillary’s emails [https://www.cnn.com/2019/09/28/politics/email-probe-state-department-hillary-clinton/index.html](https://www.cnn.com/2019/09/28/politics/email-probe-state-department-hillary-clinton/index.html) ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2019, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-administration-a-clusterfuck-in-the-making/774070/37207 "2019-09-29T03:35:31Z")
Would you all kindly stop responding to a) Sage Rat and b) WillFarnaby? You all know they’re a fucking waste of time and yet you all respond anyway. What the hell? ---
**Author:** ![Mike\_Mabes](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mike_mabes/32/1782_2.png) [@Mike\_Mabes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mike_Mabes)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2019, 3:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-administration-a-clusterfuck-in-the-making/774070/37208 "2019-09-29T03:45:16Z")
> [@asahi](#): > > Would you all kindly stop responding to a) Sage Rat and b) WillFarnaby? > > You all know they’re a fucking waste of time and yet you all respond anyway. What the hell? I vaguely remember Faranby. He is an idiot. I don’t see anything wrong with Sage Rats last post. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2019, 4:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-administration-a-clusterfuck-in-the-making/774070/37209 "2019-09-29T04:37:27Z")
> [@Mike\_Mabes](#): > > I vaguely remember Faranby. He is an idiot. I don’t see anything wrong with Sage Rats last post. Totality. His last post might have appeared legit, but the volume of his posts are shit. It’s like having Oliver Stone on acid posting here. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2019, 6:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-administration-a-clusterfuck-in-the-making/774070/37210 "2019-09-29T06:22:31Z")
> [@Mike\_Mabes](#): > > What do we call this, other than bullshit? Let them investigate, they’re not going to find anything > > State Dept is contacting former State Dept workers about Hillary’s emails > > [https://www.cnn.com/2019/09/28/politics/email-probe-state-department-hillary-clinton/index.html](https://www.cnn.com/2019/09/28/politics/email-probe-state-department-hillary-clinton/index.html) I don’t see the connection to my post? (No offense, I’m just trying to understand why you connected the two.) > [@Mike\_Mabes](#): > > I vaguely remember Faranby. He is an idiot. I don’t see anything wrong with Sage Rats last post. Asahi and others are pissed that I gave a non-partisan appraisal that was open to and leaned towards being negative to someone on the left (but also open to being positive to that same person, depending on how things shake out as better evidence comes in), so they’re being pissy about it everywhere. :rolleyes: No read of the situation is allowed except that which has been approved. Those who do not submit to the orthodoxy shall be subdued and brought into line by any and all means. Fun times here on the SDMB. ---
**Author:** ![Ann\_Hedonia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ann_hedonia/32/319_2.png) [@Ann\_Hedonia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ann_Hedonia)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2019, 11:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-administration-a-clusterfuck-in-the-making/774070/37211 "2019-09-29T11:47:08Z")
> [@Ann\_Hedonia](#): > > I can’t find the link ( I’ve clicked on a lot of links in the past couple of days. ), but one supposition is that he’s looking to discredit the Russian interference part of the Mueller investigation so he’ll have an excuse to pardon Manafort. I’m not sure how that clears Manafort, but I doubt Trump understood the charges against Manafort. This article out today provided some clarity. > **[How a Shadow Foreign Policy in Ukraine Prompted an Impeachment Inquiry...](https://www.nytimes.com/2019/09/28/us/politics/how-a-shadow-foreign-policy-in-ukraine-prompted-impeachment-inquiry.html)** > > Details of the push by President Trump and Rudolph Giuliani for Ukraine to investigate Democrats show a sustained effort that encompassed elections in both countries. It may be paywalled. It is for me. I couldn’t access it directly but it was available in my news app. Here is the relevant quote. From the NYT article: “First at a meeting in New York and later in Warsaw, Giuliani pushed Mr Lutsenko for information about - and investigations into- a pair of cases of keen interest to his client. They included the Bidens activities in Ukraine and the release in 2016 of incriminating records about Paul Manafort, Mr Trump’s campaign chairman. Mr. Giuliani said earlier his year he had become increasingly convinced that the Manafort records were doctored and disseminated by critics of Mr Trump to sabotage his campaign and later used to spur the special counsel investigation into Russian interference in the 2016 election.” So this is why Dickhead Dastardly and his sidekick Mutley thought they could find information they could use to clear Manafort. ---
**Author:** ![bobot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bobot/32/21622_2.png) [@bobot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bobot)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2019, 12:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-administration-a-clusterfuck-in-the-making/774070/37212 "2019-09-29T12:19:39Z")
> [@Mike\_Mabes](#): > > What do we call this, other than bullshit? Let them investigate, they’re not going to find anything > > State Dept is contacting former State Dept workers about Hillary’s emails > > [https://www.cnn.com/2019/09/28/politics/email-probe-state-department-hillary-clinton/index.html](https://www.cnn.com/2019/09/28/politics/email-probe-state-department-hillary-clinton/index.html) This so-called administration has sure got their priorities. ---
**Author:** ![ThelmaLou](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thelmalou/32/390_2.png) [@ThelmaLou](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ThelmaLou)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2019, 1:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-administration-a-clusterfuck-in-the-making/774070/37213 "2019-09-29T13:12:08Z")
> [@Mike\_Mabes](#): > > What do we call this, other than bullshit? Let them investigate, they’re not going to find anything > > State Dept is contacting former State Dept workers about Hillary’s emails > > [https://www.cnn.com/2019/09/28/politics/email-probe-state-department-hillary-clinton/index.html](https://www.cnn.com/2019/09/28/politics/email-probe-state-department-hillary-clinton/index.html) > [@bobot](#): > > This so-called administration has sure got their priorities. This is an act of pure desperation. ---
**Author:** ![enipla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/54ee81/32.png) [@enipla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enipla)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2019, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-administration-a-clusterfuck-in-the-making/774070/37214 "2019-09-29T13:50:29Z")
> [@bobot](#): > > This so-called administration has sure got their priorities. Deflect, obfuscate, whataboutism, muddy the waters. When you got nuthin, you try to throw a wrench in the works. That they have been trying to throw it for years and have not hit anything is telling. It’s a reflection of just how childish Trump and his minions are. It also speaks volumes about just how desperate they are. Still? Really? They don’t need a Chief of Staff, this administration needs a Nanny. I’m waiting for questions about Obamas birth certificate to come up again. ---
**Author:** ![dasmoocher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/dbc845/32.png) [@dasmoocher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dasmoocher)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2019, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-administration-a-clusterfuck-in-the-making/774070/37215 "2019-09-29T14:59:41Z")
> [@AnalogSignal](#): > > I don’t think anyone thinks he is great. He is just less erratic and unstable. They will get Romney or someone who has broader appeal to run in 2020. Pence is his own kind of nut. The comment was about judging whether Trump is losing his support. I wouldn’t mind the Senate turning on Trump the way the Roman Senate turned on Caesar (without the stabby part)–their fear and dislike of Trump may cause them to take this chance to rid themselves of him. Any replacement will be for cutting taxes, nominating conservative judges, and deregulation and be without the nutjob fanatical base. > [@bobot](#): > > This so-called administration has sure got their priorities. > [@enipla](#): > > Deflect, obfuscate, whataboutism, muddy the waters. When you got nuthin, you try to throw a wrench in the works. > > That they have been trying to throw it for years and have not hit anything is telling. It’s a reflection of just how childish Trump and his minions are. It also speaks volumes about just how desperate they are. > > Still? Really? They don’t need a Chief of Staff, this administration needs a Nanny. > > I’m waiting for questions about Obamas birth certificate to come up again. Rep. Jim Jordan was on _The State of the Union_ with Jake Tapper this morning bringing up the fact that Hunter Biden was paid $50,000/month by the Ukrainian company multiple times (apparently, Republicans are going to harp on this to no end) and even brought up the Steele dossier. Tapper pushed back by mentioning Ivanka’s copyright deals with foreign countries and the sons doing international business deals. Of course, their father’s position has no bearing on these endeavors, I’m sure. IOKWARDI. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2019, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-administration-a-clusterfuck-in-the-making/774070/37216 "2019-09-29T15:13:54Z")
> [@dasmoocher](#): > > Rep. Jim Jordan was on _The State of the Union_ with Jake Tapper this morning bringing up the fact that Hunter Biden was paid $50,000/month by the Ukrainian company multiple times (apparently, Republicans are going to harp on this to no end)… Yep. [On NPR with Audie Cornish](https://www.npr.org/2019/09/26/764865054/republican-rep-jim-jordan-discusses-testimony-on-whistleblowers-complaint) last week too. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2019, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-administration-a-clusterfuck-in-the-making/774070/37217 "2019-09-29T15:22:42Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > [Trump’s Department of Education](https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2019/09/aclu-urges-gov-probe-middle-east-studies-programme-190927175620421.html) — led by Betsy DeVos, herself a blatant criminal — is trying to suppress college-level treatment of the Middle East that does not conform to GOP ideology. Not only unfair, biased, and all that, but downright dangerous. The government is actively discouraging the next generation of diplomats from having credible comprehensive knowledge of and sensitivity toward the countries they’re supposed to be interfacing with. That’s how we end up with WW III. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2019, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-administration-a-clusterfuck-in-the-making/774070/37218 "2019-09-29T15:30:49Z")
> [@Johnny\_L.A](#): > > Yep. [On NPR with Audie Cornish](https://www.npr.org/2019/09/26/764865054/republican-rep-jim-jordan-discusses-testimony-on-whistleblowers-complaint) last week too. This is why I think Biden’s campaign will, unfortunately, sustain collateral damage. Trump could get pretty badly banged up, but so will Biden because while it’s easy for the public to understand the Trump/Ukraine scandal, it’ll be hard for the public to untangle that from the Biden’s dealings with Ukraine. We know that what Hunter did wasn’t really wrong, but it’s something that might have the appearance of impropriety in the eyes of uninformed voters, not unlike the accusations that were tossed at the Clinton and their foundation. ---
**Author:** ![El\_Kabong](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/el_kabong/32/496_2.png) [@El\_Kabong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Kabong)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2019, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-administration-a-clusterfuck-in-the-making/774070/37219 "2019-09-29T15:43:36Z")
> [@Johnny\_L.A](#): > > Yep. [On NPR with Audie Cornish](https://www.npr.org/2019/09/26/764865054/republican-rep-jim-jordan-discusses-testimony-on-whistleblowers-complaint) last week too. I wish, in that interview, that Audie had called out Jordan for the following bit of blatant bullshit (my bolding below): > [@](#): > > JORDAN: Audie, come on. Come on. Someone gets paid $50,000 dollars a month. He has no experience in the industry he gets hired in, in the energy industry. Gets paid that for several years. The company that’s paying him that gets - is under investigation, **and the vice president of the United States calls up, tells - or actually meets with him in person and tells them, you either stop that investigation or you’re not getting foreign aid from our country** , and somehow that’s not relevant? That’s unbelievable. Well, actually it is unbelievable, because it’s apparently not true. No legitimate reporting I’ve seen on this topic claims that Biden told anyone to “stop that investigation”, or any other specific investigation for that matter. Actually, all the reporting I’ve seen indicates that the demand to fire the prosecutor in question was due to the prosecutor’s repeated failure to investigate potential cases of corruption, and that no active investigation of Burisma Holdings was actually under way at the time. Feel free to correct me if I’m wrong on that last point. ---
**Author:** ![Ukulele\_Ike](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/df788c/32.png) [@Ukulele\_Ike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ukulele_Ike)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2019, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-administration-a-clusterfuck-in-the-making/774070/37220 "2019-09-29T16:01:04Z")
That’s my understanding, as well. Unfortunately, FoxNews and clowns like Gym Jordan are out there lying about it, and that’s the information that reaches the target. ---
**Author:** ![Buck\_Godot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/buck_godot/32/6573_2.png) [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2019, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-administration-a-clusterfuck-in-the-making/774070/37221 "2019-09-29T16:34:47Z")
> [@Mike\_Mabes](#): > > What do we call this, other than bullshit? Let them investigate, they’re not going to find anything > > State Dept is contacting former State Dept workers about Hillary’s emails > > [https://www.cnn.com/2019/09/28/politics/email-probe-state-department-hillary-clinton/index.html](https://www.cnn.com/2019/09/28/politics/email-probe-state-department-hillary-clinton/index.html) This is more than just rehashing the old e-mail mess. > [@](#): > > Those targeted, including senior officials as well as others in lower-level jobs, have been notified that emails they sent years ago have been retroactively classified and now are potential security violations, Apparently their previous efforts to find security violations were coming up empty so they had to create some. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2019, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-administration-a-clusterfuck-in-the-making/774070/37222 "2019-09-29T16:45:29Z")
That’s like getting a ticket because they lowered the speed limit on a road you drove on two years ago. ---
**Author:** ![Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/try2b_comprehensive/32/65_2.png) [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2019, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-administration-a-clusterfuck-in-the-making/774070/37223 "2019-09-29T17:21:21Z")
[Here](https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/opinion/after-the-mueller-report-dems-need-to-stop-to-stop-crying-wolf-opinion/ar-AAI0gwj)’s an article that digs up the origins of a Trump quote I mocked upthread. From CNN no less, but tell me if it has a strangely talking-point character to it. > [@](#): > > In 1998, Speaker of the House Nancy Pelosi accused Republicans of being “paralyzed with hatred of President Clinton” and said, “Today the Republican majority is not judging the President with fairness, but impeaching him with a vengeance.” The same can be said of Democrats’ hatred of President Trump today. > > Democrats need to avoid setting expectations for their voters that they can’t meet. That was already the case with the Mueller Report. Those on the left spent two years drumming up inaccurate predictions, only to have the special counsel’s office say the investigation did not find President Trump’s campaign conspired with Russia in the 2016 election. So, the Trump quote about Democrats being ‘paralyzed with fear and hatred’ for him is just a re-hashing of something Pelosi said years ago. What’s good for the goose and all that. Everything’s fair, fine. But are these really reciprocal situations? During the Clinton impeachment, the whole affair IIRC revolved around the President’s philandering blowjob. Ok, he lied to Congress about it IIRC, and that’s a crime. It’s not the crime but the coverup, amirite? But at the end of the day, a blowjob is just a really squicky thing for the POTUS to be doing on the clock, but AFAIK not a crime at all. So where’s the high crime or misdemeanor there? Arguably the pubbies were grasping at straws out of hatred (though perhaps not paralyzed, I don’t really remember), gumming up the works with a bunch of folderol and poppycock like they always do. The present case sure does seem different. First take a look at how the CNN article portrays it: > [@](#): > > Acting Director of National Intelligence Joseph Maguire testified Thursday that the whistleblower did the right thing and the complaint was “credible” and “important.” > > That’s true, from the standpoint that the complaint follows the appropriate protocol and reporting procedures. The official complaint is a clearly calculated document, more likely prepared by an attorney than the work of a rank-and-file member of the intelligence community. > > The problem is that the complaint is based on second-hand knowledge, hearsay and various news reports. The whistleblower himself plainly says, “I was not a direct witness to most of the events described.” Instead, the complaint is filled with statements that start with “I was told” or “I learned.” Most egregious is the final line of the footnotes, when the whistleblower acknowledges: “As of early August, I heard from US officials that some Ukrainian officials were aware that US aid might be in jeopardy, but I do not know how or when they learned of it.” > > I’m not an attorney, but I do know that would be unlikely to stand up in a court of law. Yet it is the basis of the impeachment inquiry. So. It’s ‘calculated’. ‘The work of an attorney’. These arguments fall flat to me- top level government officials are usually not a bunch of bumbling, stammering idiots like we’ve gotten used to with Trump, so official communications would be expected to be lawyerly and calculated. This is top-level professional communication, no? But that’s my take, I want outside opinions. Then there is the attack on the whistleblower’s credibility on the basis that this is second-hand information. Perhaps that is accurate, but I don’t think the implication is what the author says it is. We’re talking about the CIA, folks. Basically spies watching things happen, then reporting to their bosses what they saw. I don’t think it matters in the slightest whether the report-writer personally witnessed all of this first-hand. He’s reporting the intelligence that his agency gathered because it seems to fit a certain profile of criminal behavior. But that’s just my analysis, I want outside opinions. In any case, having read the transcript and the whistleblower complaint myself, it does seem like an accurate accusation, regardless of how the information was acquired. > [@](#): > > The cornerstone of the complaint is the phone call between President Trump and Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky. The complaint does not match the rough transcript released by the White House. The whistleblower claimed Trump “sought to pressure the Ukrainian leader to take actions to help the President’s 2020 reelection bid”. > > But the rough transcript indicates President Trump asked for a “favor” in investigating Russian interference in the 2016 election. He also mentioned allegations against Joe Biden’s son, and said “if you can look into it.” Most importantly, it does not show a quid pro quo arrangement. This seems like a mischaracterization based on my reading of the transcript and complaint. Sure, there is reference to the 2016 election via Crowdstrike, but that is only one part of the conversation and seems motivated by an intention to clear Russia’s good name wrt 2016 election interference. Please correct me if I am wrong. It goes on from there to mention ‘reciprocity’, in the context of suspended military aid to a country that has sustained 12000+ military deaths in its conflict with Russia, while asking for the ‘favor’ of investigating Joe and Hunter Biden, which to me seems to hinge directly on the 2020 election. You could call that a concern for ‘corruption’ broadly, but since there seems to be no other specific instance of corruption Trump is concerned about, 1) it sure looks like a quid pro quo to get election interference in exchange for (suspended) military aid and 2) everything I have read says that no quid pro quo is necessary for this to be a crime. It is illegal for foreign countries to participate in our elections, full stop. It is illegal for the POTUS to solicit this interference, full stop. But you know how the thick carapace of the leftist hive-mind can prevent a person from following a line of reasoning to its true conclusion, which is why I am seeking outside opinions to crack this crippling shell of thought-control and let the light shine in. Because as it stands, it looks like in the present case there is a solid _legal case_ for impeachment, and not a desperate emotional or wishful-thinking lashing out like in the case of the Clinton impeachment. And, ‘stop crying wolf’? Is this baseball and the dems only get to call out so many instances of misbehavior? I don’t think so, but I am wrong about so many things… The Mueller report seems mischaracterized in the CNN article. Yeah, it didn’t conclude that the Trump campaign conspired with the Russians, but it did find extensive evidence of obstruction of justice, suggesting maybe Mueller would have found ‘collusion’ if his investigation were not so obstructed. Or not, we can’t know, the evidence was largely suppressed. Or am I misled again? > [@](#): > > The public rush to judgment puts Biden on the defensive over Ukraine, which could be a liability on the campaign trail. His fall would likely lead to the rise of Sen. Elizabeth Warren (D-Massachusetts) who represents the left-leaning face of the party. This play would likely hurt Democrats and end up helping President Trump in the general election. > > President Trump is not above the law, but he’s not below it either. There may be impeachable offenses, but there may not. Justice is blind; it’s time to put partisanship aside and seek the truth. Ruh-roh. This “rush to judgement” is going to put Warren, the “left-leaning face of the party” (:eek:) in the lead. And considering how much America hates all things left, it leading inexorably to the gulag for us all, that means four more years of Trump. Maybe we should just drop the whole thing now to prevent the terrible outcome of electing an articulate person with the ability to form plans that serve the general public instead of the wealthy elite? Because that’s how I am reading this article. The banks and the elites really don’t want a Warren presidency because it won’t serve their interests in the way four more years of Trump would, who is effectively willing to damage the country’s future by bribing these folks with major tax cuts and regulatory favors and damn the consequences. Trump and the GOP represent the wealthy elite, while Warren and the “lefty Dems” (code for “people who will actually represent the general public”) don’t. In other words, Warren isn’t corrupt, and the money elite are starting their drumbeat of anti-Warren propaganda already, pulling strings even at CNN to do it. Which to me adds up to, “Vote Warren 2020 because the banks and oligarchs hate her.” OTOH, I am a borderline retarded individual with a leftism-degraded mind, what with my training in empiricism and science at the expense of bible-beaterism, racism, xenophobia and so on. I am probably wrong and lacking the tools to drag myself out of the cave of my own ignorance. That’s why I’m bothering to post all this. Dopers, can you help? ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2019, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-administration-a-clusterfuck-in-the-making/774070/37224 "2019-09-29T17:47:12Z")
> [@](#): > > JORDAN: Audie, come on. Come on. Someone gets paid $50,000 dollars a month. He has no experience in the industry he gets hired in, in the energy industry. Gets paid that for several years. I don’t know what kind of job was Hunter doing, but I get hired for industries in which I don’t have previous experience pretty much every other contract. I’ve worked: pharma, cosmetics, chemicals, construction, metallurgy, tourism, utilities… …off the top of my head. My rates aren’t as high as 50K/month but I’ve had offers which were on the 30K/month range (I rejected them because they came from a client I’d previously fired and still hate); note that this was for jobs in Europe, which usually pay less than in the US on a dollar-for-dollar basis (once you translate using McD dollars or similar, the rates get closer). The project lead should have been paid more than me. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-administration-a-clusterfuck-in-the-making/774070.md?page=1860) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-administration-a-clusterfuck-in-the-making/774070.md?page=1862)