# The Trump Administration: A Clusterfuck in the Making **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [December 7, 2016, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-administration-a-clusterfuck-in-the-making/774070 "2016-12-07T00:25:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1862
**Author:** ![zoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zoid/32/336_2.png) [@zoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zoid)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2019, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-administration-a-clusterfuck-in-the-making/774070/37225 "2019-09-29T18:35:47Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > I don’t know what kind of job was Hunter doing, but I get hired for industries in which I don’t have previous experience pretty much every other contract. I’ve worked: > pharma, > cosmetics, > chemicals, > construction, > metallurgy, > tourism, > utilities… > > …off the top of my head. My rates aren’t as high as 50K/month but I’ve had offers which were on the 30K/month range (I rejected them because they came from a client I’d previously fired and still hate); note that this was for jobs in Europe, which usually pay less than in the US on a dollar-for-dollar basis (once you translate using McD dollars or similar, the rates get closer). The project lead should have been paid more than me. Same here - I’ve worked in just about a dozen industries ---
**Author:** ![jasg](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f0a364/32.png) [@jasg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jasg)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2019, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-administration-a-clusterfuck-in-the-making/774070/37226 "2019-09-29T18:41:52Z")
> [@Ann\_Hedonia](#): > > This article out today provided some clarity. > > \ > > So this is why Dickhead Dastardly and his sidekick Mutley thought they could find information they could use to clear Manafort. Yes, that is a good piece. I have read that if they can invalidate the “black ledger” that implicated Manafort, they think a pardon won’t look so bad. ---
**Author:** ![Mike\_Mabes](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mike_mabes/32/1782_2.png) [@Mike\_Mabes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mike_Mabes)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2019, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-administration-a-clusterfuck-in-the-making/774070/37227 "2019-09-29T19:10:14Z")
As usual the Democrats are screwing up the messaging by making it too complicated. They should have some very simple talking points- 1. It it illegal for a President to ask a foreign government to investigagt a political rival. Period. No quid pro quo is necessary. Even so… 2. Trump and the President of Ukraine were talking about military aid. And the very next thing Trump did was to ask for a favor and an investigation into Biden. If you think the two are not related I’ve got a bridge to sell you. (I hate that cliche but people get it). 3. The reason Biden, along with the International Monetary Fund, the European Union, the U.S. government, and foreign investors, were asking for the Ukranian prosector to be removed and replaced is because he wasn’t prosecuting the case. If Hunter Biden was doing anything wrong, that is the last thing Biden would want. And the current Ukrain government has twice stated in recent days that Hunter Biden did nothing wrong. I’m not so sure they should use number 2. It gets into a debate about something you cannot prove. Anyone with any sense, including the Ukrain President, knows why the aid was help up and what Trump was implying, but you can’t prove a quid pro quo here. Keep it simple. ---
**Author:** ![Aspenglow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aspenglow/32/76_2.png) [@Aspenglow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aspenglow)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2019, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-administration-a-clusterfuck-in-the-making/774070/37228 "2019-09-29T19:31:55Z")
Donald Trump is not the only Don with big problems in his country. The Moscow Don [has got his hands full, too](https://www.reuters.com/article/us-russia-politics-protests/thousands-rally-in-moscow-to-demand-release-of-jailed-protesters-idUSKBN1WE0AH). (Reuters) > [@](#): > > More than 20,000 Russians took to the streets of Moscow on Sunday to demand the release of protesters jailed over the summer in what opponents of the Kremlin say is a campaign to stifle dissent. Putin is the guy Trump wants to be more than anything. Both are getting desperate. So scary. ---
**Author:** ![Mike\_Mabes](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mike_mabes/32/1782_2.png) [@Mike\_Mabes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mike_Mabes)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2019, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-administration-a-clusterfuck-in-the-making/774070/37229 "2019-09-29T20:16:44Z")
Just saw a bit of Rudy on This Week with George Stephanopoulos. Rudy waving around an affidavit from Slokin saying he was forced out because he was investigating Hunter Biden. Rudy also claiming he will produce other affidavits from people in the Ukraine saying that it was Hillary that was guilty of collusion. Here is the thing. If I were an uninformed voter looking into this issue for the first time, I would probably come away thinking that maybe there was something to this. (George did not do a very good job of refuting Rudy, partially because Rudy would not let hm talk). And if I then heard a Democratic response, I might think the same thing. And I would not know who to believe. And being the typical voter, I would not spend a whole lot of time looking into it any further. The same thing would be true of Trump’s phone call. And I might ask, “They are impeaching a President for this? It’s not that big of a deal.”\* I just don’t think the phone call is going to be enough to change anyone’s mind. But we do have two more years for other things to come out, and two more years for Trump to keep fucking up. \*I remember the Watergate hearings. I was 12. And I remember hearing about the smoking gun - “For the good of the country” look the other way etc. And I remember thinking “That’s it? Doesn’t sound like such a horrible crime.” I don’t think the average voter knows anymore than I did then. ---
**Author:** ![Rick\_Kitchen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rick_kitchen/32/522_2.png) [@Rick\_Kitchen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick_Kitchen)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2019, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-administration-a-clusterfuck-in-the-making/774070/37230 "2019-09-29T20:25:31Z")
They aren’t going to just go to a vote on impeachment. There will be hearings. They will bring in people to testify. It will be televised live all day on all networks. The hearings will produce evidence. If the House then believes that there is enough testimony to impeach, they will vote. The public is going to see what the Democrats are basing their vote on. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2019, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-administration-a-clusterfuck-in-the-making/774070/37231 "2019-09-29T20:47:46Z")
> [@Mike\_Mabes](#): > > The same thing would be true of Trump’s phone call. And I might ask, “They are impeaching a President for this? It’s not that big of a deal.”\* > > I just don’t think the phone call is going to be enough to change anyone’s mind. But we do have two more years for other things to come out, and two more years for Trump to keep fucking up. > > \*I remember the Watergate hearings. I was 12. And I remember hearing about the smoking gun - “For the good of the country” look the other way etc. And I remember thinking “That’s it? Doesn’t sound like such a horrible crime.” I don’t think the average voter knows anymore than I did then. What more do you want from the phone call? “I need some missiles”. “First we need a favor”. This is extortion, or a quid pro quo, take your pick. For the life of me I can’t figure out the talking heads opining on whether this broke campaign finance laws. Who cares? The point is the extortion then the coverup plus God knows how much more evidence that the power of the subpoena is going to turn up. ---
**Author:** ![Kolak\_of\_Twilo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kolak_of_twilo/32/73_2.png) [@Kolak\_of\_Twilo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kolak_of_Twilo)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2019, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-administration-a-clusterfuck-in-the-making/774070/37232 "2019-09-29T20:57:14Z")
I would suggest we stop using the phrase “quid pro quo” since the average Joe/Jane may not understand it. Extortion is much more clear and describes the behavior in the call and Trump/Giuliano’s behavior just as accurately. They act like mafiosos, they should be discussed in those terms. ---
**Author:** ![Mike\_Mabes](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mike_mabes/32/1782_2.png) [@Mike\_Mabes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mike_Mabes)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2019, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-administration-a-clusterfuck-in-the-making/774070/37233 "2019-09-29T21:02:05Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > What more do you want from the phone call? “I need some missiles”. “First we need a favor”. This is extortion, or a quid pro quo, take your pick. For the life of me I can’t figure out the talking heads opining on whether this broke campaign finance laws. Who cares? The point is the extortion then the coverup plus God knows how much more evidence that the power of the subpoena is going to turn up. I’m not talking about me. Obviously to anyone who has logic it’s extortion or quid pro quo. But a lot of voters are tomatoes, they don’t have logic. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2019, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-administration-a-clusterfuck-in-the-making/774070/37234 "2019-09-29T21:25:42Z")
> [@Mike\_Mabes](#): > > I’m not talking about me. Obviously to anyone who has logic it’s extortion or quid pro quo. But a lot of voters are tomatoes, they don’t have logic. I find that it’s pointless to try to argue with The Cult Of The Orange Anus. They don’t give a shit what he does as long as he hates the same people they do. For those that can be persuaded, I think the Ukrainian transcript would be enough. But get the whistleblower and his sources to testify and get more evidence, then that might move the needle enough to get a conviction. I’ve gotta believe that most Republican Senators would love to get rid of the little prick and even Lindsay Graham deep down would love to stop licking his boots. They just need to be confronted with compelling evidence. ---
**Author:** ![Sterling\_Archer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f1d935/32.png) [@Sterling\_Archer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sterling_Archer)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2019, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-administration-a-clusterfuck-in-the-making/774070/37235 "2019-09-29T22:03:05Z")
The most damning thing coming out of all this that will lead to much more is that the WH staff routinely stores records of the president’s conversations on a classified server if they think it could damage him. Those calls are going to get subpoenaed. More crazy requests and extortion will come to light, going BOTH ways. Just imagine what could be there between Putin and Trump, especially considering all the random pro-Russia stuff this administration has managed to slip in there, all while Trump insists he is “very tough on Russia”. The impeachment inquiry is going to shed light on all of this. The Ukraine extortion will end up being the tip of the iceberg. ---
**Author:** ![Mike\_Mabes](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mike_mabes/32/1782_2.png) [@Mike\_Mabes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mike_Mabes)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2019, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-administration-a-clusterfuck-in-the-making/774070/37236 "2019-09-29T22:03:35Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > I find that it’s pointless to try to argue with The Cult Of The Orange Anus. They don’t give a shit what he does as long as he hates the same people they do. For those that can be persuaded, I think the Ukrainian transcript would be enough. But get the whistleblower and his sources to testify and get more evidence, then that might move the needle enough to get a conviction. I’ve gotta believe that most Republican Senators would love to get rid of the little prick and even Lindsay Graham deep down would love to stop licking his boots. They just need to be confronted with compelling evidence. I think it was Jeff Flake who said about 35 Senators would vote for impeachment if they could do it in secret. Trump has no friends in the Senate. As I said we have a lot of time for more stuff to come out. And we only need about 5% of the people to come around to win the election. Trump has about 42% approval, once you get past the MAGA hats, a lot of that is very lukewarm support. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2019, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-administration-a-clusterfuck-in-the-making/774070/37237 "2019-09-29T22:24:22Z")
> [@Rick\_Kitchen](#): > > They aren’t going to just go to a vote on impeachment. There will be hearings. They will bring in people to testify. It will be televised live all day on all networks. The hearings will produce evidence. If the House then believes that there is enough testimony to impeach, they will vote. The public is going to see what the Democrats are basing their vote on. And the Republican voting public still will not care. They are already convinced it’s a witch hunt because their hero says it is. That’s all they will hear because that’s all they want to hear. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2019, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-administration-a-clusterfuck-in-the-making/774070/37238 "2019-09-29T23:09:27Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > their hero Their Messiah. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2019, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-administration-a-clusterfuck-in-the-making/774070/37239 "2019-09-29T23:12:24Z")
> [@Kolak\_of\_Twilo](#): > > I would suggest we stop using the phrase “quid pro quo” since the average Joe/Jane may not understand it. Extortion is much more clear and describes the behavior in the call and Trump/Giuliano’s behavior just as accurately. They act like mafiosos, they should be discussed in those terms. Extortion is such an ugly, clinical word. I prefer blackmail. ---
**Author:** ![HelenGawn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a88e4f/32.png) [@HelenGawn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HelenGawn)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2019, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-administration-a-clusterfuck-in-the-making/774070/37240 "2019-09-29T23:14:12Z")
> [@Sterling\_Archer](#): > > The most damning thing coming out of all this that will lead to much more is that the WH staff routinely stores records of the president’s conversations on a classified server if they think it could damage him. > > Those calls are going to get subpoenaed. More crazy requests and extortion will come to light, going BOTH ways. Just imagine what could be there between Putin and Trump, especially considering all the random pro-Russia stuff this administration has managed to slip in there, all while Trump insists he is “very tough on Russia”. > > The impeachment inquiry is going to shed light on all of this. The Ukraine extortion will end up being the tip of the iceberg. No way those call are coming out during trump’s reign, and I don’t think the House Dems will waste time on pointless, endless subpoenas, privilege claims, national security claims\*, etc. They want to keep the narrative simple and direct. A Democratic administration can examine and declassify at their leisure. Some of that will surely result in further investigations of a host of parties. \*There’s a valid claim that there’s no one except the current gang of villains with the clearance to sift through all the code-word documents, many of which are legitimate. The best you could do is set up a panel of former officials with top-secret clearance, and trump would immediately cancel those clearances. ---
**Author:** ![drad\_dog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@drad\_dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drad_dog)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2019, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-administration-a-clusterfuck-in-the-making/774070/37241 "2019-09-29T23:17:42Z")
> [@Mike\_Mabes](#): > > Just saw a bit of Rudy on This Week with George Stephanopoulos. Rudy waving around an affidavit from Slokin saying he was forced out because he was investigating Hunter Biden. Rudy also claiming he will produce other affidavits from people in the Ukraine saying that it was Hillary that was guilty of collusion. > > Here is the thing. If I were an uninformed voter looking into this issue for the first time, I would probably come away thinking that maybe there was something to this. (George did not do a very good job of refuting Rudy, partially because Rudy would not let hm talk). And if I then heard a Democratic response, I might think the same thing. And I would not know who to believe. And being the typical voter, I would not spend a whole lot of time looking into it any further. > > The same thing would be true of Trump’s phone call. And I might ask, “They are impeaching a President for this? It’s not that big of a deal.”\* > > I just don’t think the phone call is going to be enough to change anyone’s mind. But we do have two more years for other things to come out, and two more years for Trump to keep fucking up. > > \*I remember the Watergate hearings. I was 12. And I remember hearing about the smoking gun - “For the good of the country” look the other way etc. And I remember thinking “That’s it? Doesn’t sound like such a horrible crime.” I don’t think the average voter knows anymore than I did then. It’s weird because two years ago everyone was saying “if only there was something on tape.” Republicans are very good at moving goalposts. ---
**Author:** ![Sherrerd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sherrerd/32/8_2.png) [@Sherrerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sherrerd)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2019, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-administration-a-clusterfuck-in-the-making/774070/37242 "2019-09-30T00:05:51Z")
> [@Mike\_Mabes](#): > > Just saw a bit of Rudy on This Week with George Stephanopoulos. Rudy waving around an affidavit from Slokin saying he was forced out because he was investigating Hunter Biden. Rudy also claiming he will produce other affidavits from people in the Ukraine saying that it was Hillary that was guilty of collusion. > > Here is the thing. If I were an uninformed voter looking into this issue for the first time, I would probably come away thinking that maybe there was something to this. (George did not do a very good job of refuting Rudy, partially because Rudy would not let hm talk)… What George should have done was have some photos and graphics ready. When Rudy starts waiving his works of fiction around, cut to a photo of Joe McCarthy waiving his paper with ‘the names of 57 card-carrying Communists’, with the caption “McCarthy later admitted he’d made up a number he hoped would sound impressive” or the like. The Trump defenders are going to lie openly. News people need to be prepared in advance and stop them in their tracks. Chris Wallace did a nice job with Stephen Miller, today, countering Miller’s lies very smoothly: > [@](#): > > … Again, Wallace reminded Miller that the Inspector General found the allegations to be “credible.” > > “And they’re wrong, Chris,” Miller said. “This is a deep state operative, pure and simple… You have a group of unelected bureaucrats who think that they need to take down this president… publish hit pieces, they publish fake stories.” > > Wallace interjected. “The president has the State Department. He’s got the CIA. He’s got the Pentagon. He’s got a number of other agencies. Why did he use three private lawyers to get information on Biden from the Ukrainian government rather than go through all of the agencies of his government?” > > Miller, true to form, tried to obfuscate, but Wallace held his ground, insisting Miller answer his question directly. “I understand that you have your question, I have my answer,” Miller said. > > This prompted Wallace to say, “You have your non-answer at this point.” … > **[Chris Wallace Shoots Down Stephen Miller's Claim Whistleblower Is Part of...](https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-news/chris-wallace-stephen-miller-whistleblower-deep-state-892422/)** > > White House policy adviser Stephen Miller appeared on 'Fox News Sunday' and made unfounded accusations about the Ukraine whistleblower. It can be done. ---
**Author:** ![Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b487fb/32.png) [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walken_After_Midnight)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2019, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-administration-a-clusterfuck-in-the-making/774070/37243 "2019-09-30T14:29:12Z")
[Jeff Flake](https://twitter.com/kylegriffin1/status/1178664567141994501) in _The Washington Post_: > [@Jeff Flake](#): > > “Fellow Republicans, there’s still time to save your souls.” > … > “With what we now know, the president’s actions warrant impeachment.” > … > “My fellow Republicans, it is time to risk your careers in favor of your principles. Whether you believe the president deserves impeachment, you know he does not deserve reelection.” > … > “Our country will have more presidents. But principles, well, we get just one crack at those … Trust me when I say that you can go elsewhere for a job. But you cannot go elsewhere for a soul.” ---
**Author:** ![Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba9def/32.png) [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Just_Asking_Questions)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2019, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-administration-a-clusterfuck-in-the-making/774070/37244 "2019-09-30T14:42:22Z")
> [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](#): > > [Jeff Flake](https://twitter.com/kylegriffin1/status/1178664567141994501) in _The Washington Post_: The trouble with Flake is he never got a backbone when it mattered. If he was still in Washington, he could do something. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-administration-a-clusterfuck-in-the-making/774070.md?page=1861) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-administration-a-clusterfuck-in-the-making/774070.md?page=1863)