# The Trump Administration: A Clusterfuck in the Making **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [December 7, 2016, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-administration-a-clusterfuck-in-the-making/774070 "2016-12-07T00:25:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2069
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2020, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-administration-a-clusterfuck-in-the-making/774070/41365 "2020-03-13T01:13:43Z")
[PANDUMBIC 2: The Dumpire Strikes Back (The Sequel)](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uxROKabhDP8) (1:27 video) ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2020, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-administration-a-clusterfuck-in-the-making/774070/41366 "2020-03-13T01:20:00Z")
> [@Mike\_Mabes](#): > > who is good at stats here? I know some people (not here) are going to say it’s just a coincidence. So if you take all of the countries where travel is banned from, what are the odds of those 3 countries being selected randomly? I assume that you’re asking what the odds are of excluding a particular set of 3 _European_ countries? The odds are pretty good: > **[Schengen Area](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schengen_Area)** > > {{Infobox geopolitical organization > | name = Schengen Area > | image\_map = Map of the Schengen Area.svg > | map\_caption = Map of the Schengen Area > | org\_type = Open border area of the European Union > | established = 26 March 1995 > | membership\_type = Members > > | membership = The Schengen is a real thing and Trump hasn’t added not subtracted from it. Given that they did specifically use the Schengen as their meter, the argument would presumably be that - due to there being no border checks while moving around through the region - it’s impossible to say who has been where and where they came from. Of course, it’s still an arbitrary line if you’re basing things on preventing disease transmission. It’s like saying that you’re not going to sleep with the town drunk, because who knows who she’s been with, but you will sleep with the lady who was just on TV talking about her difficulties with her untreated syphilis. All while, yourself, having a severe case of gonorrhea that you’re hiding from your wife. Given that is an arbitrary line, and there are lots of different partnerships in Europe and the world to select from, it wouldn’t have been too difficult to select a rule that kept business going. ---
**Author:** ![Defensive\_Indifference](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/defensive_indifference/32/6502_2.png) [@Defensive\_Indifference](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Defensive_Indifference)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2020, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-administration-a-clusterfuck-in-the-making/774070/41367 "2020-03-13T01:45:14Z")
Now I know back in January I thought we were going to war with Iran and I asked how much nuclear winter it would take to fix global warming. And of course we didn’t go to war and missed our opportunity to solve global warming. But hear me out. What if we let coronavirus kill 7% or so of the population of earth. How much will the resulting dip in energy demand affect global temperatures? This could still work itself out. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2020, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-administration-a-clusterfuck-in-the-making/774070/41368 "2020-03-13T01:48:24Z")
> [@jsc1953](#): > > Ya know, a president who was interested in leadership and moral authority and all that stuff would stage a photo op of himself getting tested. > > Speaking of CNN, one of their correspondents has the unenviable task of pulling out the most ridiculous statements from most Trump pronouncements for our amusement. [Here’s what he had from today.](https://www.cnn.com/2020/03/12/politics/donald-trump-coronavirus-press-conference/index.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+rss%2Fcnn_topstories+%28RSS%3A+CNN+-+Top+Stories%29)… I hate to sound like click-bait, but #16 cracked me up. Loser Donald strikes me as the kind of pansy who faints at the sight of his own blood. ---
**Author:** ![Rick\_Kitchen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rick_kitchen/32/522_2.png) [@Rick\_Kitchen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick_Kitchen)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2020, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-administration-a-clusterfuck-in-the-making/774070/41369 "2020-03-13T02:13:58Z")
> [@Defensive\_Indifference](#): > > Now I know back in January I thought we were going to war with Iran and I asked how much nuclear winter it would take to fix global warming. And of course we didn’t go to war and missed our opportunity to solve global warming. But hear me out. What if we let coronavirus kill 7% or so of the population of earth. How much will the resulting dip in energy demand affect global temperatures? This could still work itself out. Satellite imagery shows that the heavy air pollution over China has dissipated since the virus struck. ---
**Author:** ![Defensive\_Indifference](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/defensive_indifference/32/6502_2.png) [@Defensive\_Indifference](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Defensive_Indifference)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2020, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-administration-a-clusterfuck-in-the-making/774070/41370 "2020-03-13T02:21:22Z")
> [@Rick\_Kitchen](#): > > Satellite imagery shows that the heavy air pollution over China has dissipated since the virus struck. Seriously? I was just indulging in gallows humor. I didn’t think there would be any noticeable effect. I guess the dip in pollution is due to people staying home instead of driving? I mean they haven’t had that many deaths yet have they? ---
**Author:** ![ThelmaLou](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thelmalou/32/390_2.png) [@ThelmaLou](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ThelmaLou)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2020, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-administration-a-clusterfuck-in-the-making/774070/41371 "2020-03-13T02:25:40Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Loser Donald strikes me as the kind of pansy who faints at the sight of his own blood. Definitely at the sight of a needle that’s about to poke a hole in him. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2020, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-administration-a-clusterfuck-in-the-making/774070/41372 "2020-03-13T02:37:55Z")
> [@Defensive\_Indifference](#): > > Seriously? I was just indulging in gallows humor. I didn’t think there would be any noticeable effect. I guess the dip in pollution is due to people staying home instead of driving? I mean they haven’t had that many deaths yet have they? As I understand it, the dip is from shutting down a ton of factories. I suspect electricity demand is down also, which helps in reducing the use of their coal-fired plants. ---
**Author:** ![dasmoocher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/dbc845/32.png) [@dasmoocher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dasmoocher)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2020, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-administration-a-clusterfuck-in-the-making/774070/41373 "2020-03-13T03:10:14Z")
> [@Grrr](#): > > The repubs response to this on my FB is Basically: “Imagine being so stupid you think Trump started the Corona virus.” > > Talk about gaslighting. Also seen on Facebook (paraphrased by me): - Hillary and George Soros had this virus created in a secret lab in the Amazon. - Then had it transported and released in Wuhan, China. - In collusion with their agents in the FAKE NEWS! and with the purpose of inducing global panic and hysteria, they have created a hoax that artificially caused the global markets to tank. - All done with the goal to bring down Donald Trump. To be honest, it’s hard to tell if this is a real MAGAss conspiracy theory or a parody of one. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2020, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-administration-a-clusterfuck-in-the-making/774070/41374 "2020-03-13T03:19:56Z")
> [@dasmoocher](#): > > Also seen on Facebook (paraphrased by me): > > - Hillary and George Soros had this virus created in a secret lab in the Amazon. > - Then had it transported and released in Wuhan, China. > - In collusion with their agents in the FAKE NEWS! and with the purpose of inducing global panic and hysteria, they have created a hoax that artificially caused the global markets to tank. > - All done with the goal to bring down Donald Trump. > > To be honest, it’s hard to tell if this is a real MAGAss conspiracy theory or a parody of one. The parody is less ridiculous. ---
**Author:** ![dasmoocher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/dbc845/32.png) [@dasmoocher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dasmoocher)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2020, 3:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-administration-a-clusterfuck-in-the-making/774070/41375 "2020-03-13T03:46:33Z")
> [@running\_coach](#): > > The parody is less ridiculous. I just saw the FB post today, but apparently, versions of this have been out there and Bill Gates is also involved: [California GOP candidate tweets coronavirus conspiracy theories](https://thehill.com/policy/technology/485427-california-gop-candidate-tweets-coronavirus-conspiracy-theories) > [@](#): > > 03/02/20 > A GOP House candidate in California has repeatedly tweeted conspiracy theories regarding the novel coronavirus, a fast-spreading flu-like disease that has spurred a wave of online misinformation. > > The tweets, from Republican hopeful Joanne Wright, underline how widespread coronavirus-related conspiracy theories have become as even politicians tout debunked claims linking the disease to governments and public figures. > > Wright has tweeted multiple times over the last few weeks about the coronavirus, suggesting the virus may be manmade or even connected to prominent Democrats, the Los Angeles Times first reported. > > In one tweet, from Feb. 28, Wright questioned whether Microsoft founder Bill Gates is connected to the virus, a conspiracy theory that has made its way from the fringes of the online ecosystem to the center. She also tied the coronavirus, also known as COVID-19, to Democratic mega-donor George Soros and former Democratic presidential candidate Hillary Clinton. > > “Doesn’t @BillGates finance research at the Wuhan lab where the Corona virus was being created?” Wright tweeted, earning hundreds of retweets and likes. “Isn’t @georgesoros a good friend of Gates? Isn’t it always when @HillaryClinton tweets that fire and brimstone hits us? Check Gates Foundation and Clinton Foundation for stock sells.” > > The day before, responding to a tweet espousing a largely debunked theory on the origins of the virus from Sen. Tom Cotton (R-Ark.), Wright tweeted, “The Corona virus is a man made virus created in a Wuhan laboratory. Ask @BillGates who financed it.” ---
**Author:** ![Defensive\_Indifference](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/defensive_indifference/32/6502_2.png) [@Defensive\_Indifference](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Defensive_Indifference)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2020, 3:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-administration-a-clusterfuck-in-the-making/774070/41376 "2020-03-13T03:49:41Z")
I admit I wasn’t familiar with Andy Slavitt before just a few minutes ago. He was for a time the head of the Center for Medicare and Medicaid Services (CMS) under Obama and was tasked with fixing the issues with the [healthcare.gov](http://healthcare.gov) rollout. I guess he knows what he’s talking about. He says in a [tweet](https://twitter.com/ASlavitt/status/1238303395448008704) tonight that “Currently experts expect over 1 million deaths in the U.S.” He doesn’t give a timeframe. One million deaths this year? By May 1? I’m not sure. In any case, if he’s correct, HOLY FUCKING SHIT. For context, all wars the US has fought between 1776 and today have claimed about 1.2 million American lives ([cite, PDF](https://www.va.gov/opa/publications/factsheets/fs_americas_wars.pdf)). ---
**Author:** ![steatopygia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steatopygia/32/3132_2.png) [@steatopygia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steatopygia)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2020, 4:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-administration-a-clusterfuck-in-the-making/774070/41377 "2020-03-13T04:03:02Z")
That is nonsense. You can come up with those numbers using the worst case scenario at every single stage. 70% infection rate, 3.8% fatality rate, etc. Nonsense. ---
**Author:** ![Buck\_Godot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/buck_godot/32/6573_2.png) [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2020, 4:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-administration-a-clusterfuck-in-the-making/774070/41378 "2020-03-13T04:07:03Z")
> [@Grrr](#): > > The repubs response to this on my FB is Basically: “Imagine being so stupid you think Trump started the Corona virus.” > > Talk about gaslighting. Technically I think this would be strawmanning (claiming you hold a position that you don’t). Gaslighting would be when they claim that Trump never said that there would be no more than 13 people in the US infected and it was just your imagination that he said such a thing. ---
**Author:** ![dasmoocher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/dbc845/32.png) [@dasmoocher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dasmoocher)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2020, 4:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-administration-a-clusterfuck-in-the-making/774070/41379 "2020-03-13T04:15:44Z")
> [@Buck\_Godot](#): > > Gaslighting would be when they claim that Trump never said that there would be no more than 13 people in the US infected and it was just your imagination that he said such a thing. Or, it could be when one holds a lit match next to Trump’s mouth as he’s speaking. Some people have been known to juvenilely do this at the other end of their GI tract. ---
**Author:** ![Gorsnak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gorsnak/32/7587_2.png) [@Gorsnak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gorsnak)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2020, 4:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-administration-a-clusterfuck-in-the-making/774070/41380 "2020-03-13T04:52:30Z")
> [@steatopygia](#): > > That is nonsense. You can come up with those numbers using the worst case scenario at every single stage. 70% infection rate, 3.8% fatality rate, etc. > Nonsense. 1 million deaths in the US would be a 70% infection rate with about a 0.4% mortality rate. 3.8 would put you closer to 10 million. ---
**Author:** ![Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/try2b_comprehensive/32/65_2.png) [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2020, 5:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-administration-a-clusterfuck-in-the-making/774070/41381 "2020-03-13T05:09:11Z")
> [@Defensive\_Indifference](#): > > I admit I wasn’t familiar with Andy Slavitt before just a few minutes ago. He was for a time the head of the Center for Medicare and Medicaid Services (CMS) under Obama and was tasked with fixing the issues with the [healthcare.gov](http://healthcare.gov) rollout. I guess he knows what he’s talking about. > > He says in a [tweet](https://twitter.com/ASlavitt/status/1238303395448008704) tonight that “Currently experts expect over 1 million deaths in the U.S.” > > He doesn’t give a timeframe. One million deaths this year? By May 1? I’m not sure. In any case, if he’s correct, HOLY FUCKING SHIT. For context, all wars the US has fought between 1776 and today have claimed about 1.2 million American lives ([cite, PDF](https://www.va.gov/opa/publications/factsheets/fs_americas_wars.pdf)). That is based on comments from a Harvard epidemiologist who predicts between 70 million and 150 million Americans will ultimately catch it and that 1% will die. Not clear on the timeframe and the death rate may be inaccurate, but Merkel predicts 2/3 of Germans will catch it, so he is calling a lower percentage of infected than she is. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2020, 5:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-administration-a-clusterfuck-in-the-making/774070/41382 "2020-03-13T05:31:55Z")
The ranges of numbers I have seen go from 40-70% infection rate and 0.6% to 4.2% fatality rate. I don’t have a gauge on the infection rate yet but 0.6%-1% currently seems more likely than higher numbers. 55% infection rate at 0.8% fatality, for 300m Americans would be 1.3m. An average year looks to have about 2.8m deaths (car accidents, heart attack, misadventure, etc.) Heart disease is our greatest killer at 23%, which would be 644k deaths. So a 1.3m loss is horrifying, for lack of a better word. Granted, we will expect to see a lot fewer cases of heart disease and other illness-caused death this year. Since Covid-19 will be taking people out prematurely, we would expect the next few years after this one to have a lower death rate. On the other hand, since we know that many who would have died for other reasons this year will die due to Corona instead, our total number should be less than 4.1m. I’d probably guess that we’ll see reduced death rates for the next two years, implying that 2/3rds of the 1.3m would have died naturally in the following two years and will die this year instead. (Fuzzy math.) So we should add 2/3rds of the 1.3m (867k) to the usual total (2.8m) for 3.7m deaths this year. ---
**Author:** ![smithsb](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smithsb/32/12107_2.png) [@smithsb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smithsb)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2020, 6:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-administration-a-clusterfuck-in-the-making/774070/41383 "2020-03-13T06:42:52Z")
Well those projected (fantasized) death rates will certainly reduce Social Security and Medicare outlays - a positive and in line with the President’s thinking (hunching?) /s ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2020, 10:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-administration-a-clusterfuck-in-the-making/774070/41384 "2020-03-13T10:40:07Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > I wasn’t writing for context, I was itemizing things that were flat out wrong. > > Say for example that Jim points at a green Granny Smith apple that is 3.5" diameter across the widest part. > > Rebecca says, “Jim, you stop pointing at that there orange! Oranges don’t like that!” > > I say, “Rebecca, a) that’s an apple not an orange and b) neither of those cares about being pointed at.” > > Now is it reasonable to follow my statement up by going, “Gee gosh, Sage, you’re missing the context! It’s not just some apple. It’s a Granny Smith apple that’s 3.5” diameter across the widest part! Pshaw!" > > I mean, yeah, that does add more context I suppose, but it’s not relevant context for the discussion. > > So say that Ziemer is a Rear Admiral. Yes that’s true. Does a human being turn into a “team” instead of still being an individual when they are promoted to being a Rear Admiral? Not that I’m aware of. You can make him into a five star general or the God Emperor of Planet Earth and he’s still not a team. Saying that a team was fired is counterfactual. It’s not lacking in context, it’s just flat out incorrect. > > Maybe the role was very important and integral to national security for just such a situation as this. Maybe it was a waste of space. I don’t know and the answer to that question would provide meaningful and valuable context to the matter. More importantly, that I can tell, no one that knows the answer to that question has been asked about it and had their response posted. The closest we can come to an answer, with the information available today, is by looking at who axed it and whether that person is an idiot. > > John Bolton axed it and, while some hate him as a war hawk, there’s no good reason to think that he would axe the position out of stupidity. Conceivably, it was an entirely useless role and, if it had been a team rather than a team, it would have been a useless team. Also conceivably, Bolton made a mistake and that was a dumb move on his part. We don’t know and it would be false, with the information available, to slam or praise him. And it’s false to take that the role was filled by a Rear Admiral that somehow thus it was integral to something. It just as well might have been a plush, cushy job for a former hero who needed a retirement income for all we know. The context tells us nothing relevant and is more likely to mislead than to aid, because the title sounds good. Likewise, I could create a position on the NSC called, “Leader in Chief of Curing Cancer for All Humanity, Gratis”, whose job description is to load new paper into the copy machine, for which he will be paid $400k a year, and get a company car. Should that role stay or go? > > Trump is certainly to blame for going on a purge of the National Security Council. But that is in the year 2020, not 2018. And in 2020, the role was already gone. Saying that Trump didn’t refill it is nonsensical. It would have been Bolton’s successor who would have restored the position, if he felt it was necessary. > > Yes, Trump is to blame for hiring Bolton and, thereby, at least somewhat to blame. But likewise, he could be thanked for the removal if, for example, it was an empty role for a friend of someone, taking bonus money unearned. We simply don’t know. While I appreciate the effort you’ve put into this post and its points supported by such examples as the micromeasuring of apples, quite a lot of pie-in-the-sky speculation and the phrase “Leader in Chief of Curing Cancer for All Humanity, Gratis”, I stand by my previous post on the subject and am content to let other readers decide for themselves which of us is accurately reflecting the situation and which is engaged in desperate deflection. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-administration-a-clusterfuck-in-the-making/774070.md?page=2068) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-administration-a-clusterfuck-in-the-making/774070.md?page=2070)