# The Trump Administration: A Clusterfuck in the Making **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [December 7, 2016, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-administration-a-clusterfuck-in-the-making/774070 "2016-12-07T00:25:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 362
**Author:** ![Enuma\_Elish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5e9695/32.png) [@Enuma\_Elish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enuma_Elish)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2017, 12:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-administration-a-clusterfuck-in-the-making/774070/7223 "2017-06-24T12:55:41Z")
> [@VinylTurnip](#): > > That’s all very stirring, but I wasn’t referring to Obama. Of course you weren’t. That’s the problem. ---
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2017, 1:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-administration-a-clusterfuck-in-the-making/774070/7224 "2017-06-24T13:01:08Z")
> [@Enuma\_Elish](#): > > Obama was/is an Illinois Democrat who came from a uber-union philosophy. The man can’t even give an impromptu speech. Trump isn’t perfect, but at least he can speak to a crowd without a teleprompter. If you can’t/won’t see that you are incapable of seeing Obama for who he is and what he can/can’t do. See him for what he is and judge him for what he is, not for what your ideal of him is. Fuck sakes, he was the President for 8 years - but he wasn’t perfect. If you agree with Obama’s ‘worldview’ over America first policies, fine, but many people like me want America before the world, because in the end its a better policy for everyone in the world. This thread is about what a piece of shit Trump is, not how mediocre Obama was. There were plenty of those threads back when he was President. Stop pretending that calling out Trump for what a vile, incompetent, sexually predatory douchebag he is means we’re incapable, or unwilling, to evaluate the performance of other Presidents. The only bias here is basic human decency. ---
**Author:** ![Enuma\_Elish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5e9695/32.png) [@Enuma\_Elish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enuma_Elish)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2017, 1:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-administration-a-clusterfuck-in-the-making/774070/7225 "2017-06-24T13:08:17Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > God forbid you trust anything from a legitimate news source, right? > > That’s unadulterated horseshit. > > You voted for Trump not because you had to but because you wanted to. This is why anyone who isn’t a far-left liberal has stopped posting here. Even the Mods are full of shit. PolitiFact or CNN are legitimate news sources? No they aren’t. If you think so - you shouldn’t me a Mod. And don’t imply I am a liar. I hated voting for Trump. He was/is self absorbed and seemed to be only interested in money/fame. I hated voting for Hillary the liar and killer more. If you think Hillary wasn’t a liar and responsible for the death of innocents, you are far too believing of left-wing bullshit to be in a position of power, but what can anyone who judges by his/her political beliefs instead of what he/she sees do other than jump down the throats of people who actually judge by what they see? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2017, 1:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-administration-a-clusterfuck-in-the-making/774070/7226 "2017-06-24T13:09:35Z")
> [@Enuma\_Elish](#): > > Obama was/is an Illinois Democrat who came from a uber-union philosophy. The man can’t even give an impromptu speech. Trump isn’t perfect, but at least he can speak to a crowd without a teleprompter. If you can’t/won’t see that you are incapable of seeing Obama for who he is and what he can/can’t do. See him for what he is and judge him for what he is, not for what your ideal of him is. Fuck sakes, he was the President for 8 years - but he wasn’t perfect. If you agree with Obama’s ‘worldview’ over America first policies, fine, but many people like me want America before the world, because in the end its a better policy for everyone in the world. I agree with Obama’s actual worldview, which is far more “America first” than Trump’s (which is more like “Trump first”), as opposed to the fantasy right-wing radio version. And LOL that you think Trump gives a better impromptu speech than Obama. It’s true that Obama has never bragged, impromptu, about grabbing pussies. ---
**Author:** ![Enuma\_Elish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5e9695/32.png) [@Enuma\_Elish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enuma_Elish)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2017, 1:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-administration-a-clusterfuck-in-the-making/774070/7227 "2017-06-24T13:09:50Z")
> [@Spice\_Weasel](#): > > This thread is about what a piece of shit Trump is, not how mediocre Obama was. There were plenty of those threads back when he was President. Stop pretending that calling out Trump for what a vile, incompetent, sexually predatory douchebag he is means we’re incapable, or unwilling, to evaluate the performance of other Presidents. The only bias here is basic human decency. How is Trump sexually predatory? Please use Weiner as a baseline. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2017, 1:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-administration-a-clusterfuck-in-the-making/774070/7228 "2017-06-24T13:11:19Z")
> [@Enuma\_Elish](#): > > This is why anyone who isn’t a far-left liberal has stopped posting here. Even the Mods are full of shit. PolitiFact or CNN are legitimate news sources? No they aren’t. If you think so - you shouldn’t me a Mod. > > And don’t imply I am a liar. I hated voting for Trump. He was/is self absorbed and seemed to be only interested in money/fame. I hated voting for Hillary the liar and killer more. > > If you think Hillary wasn’t a liar and responsible for the death of innocents, you are far too believing of left-wing bullshit to be in a position of power, but what can anyone who judges by his/her political beliefs instead of what he/she sees > do other than jump down the throats of people who actually judge by what they see? Hillary lies, she just lies a lot less than Trump. Trump rose to prominence based on white supremacist lies. He never apologized for them. He hasn’t stopped lying since. He lied about Obama, about Hillary, about his own words, about Ted Cruz’s father, about 5 black teenagers in the 80s who were falsely accused of rape, about jobs in the US, about energy in the US, about climate change, and much, much more. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2017, 1:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-administration-a-clusterfuck-in-the-making/774070/7229 "2017-06-24T13:12:19Z")
> [@Enuma\_Elish](#): > > How is Trump sexually predatory? Please use Weiner as a baseline. Weiner might be a predator too. Trump bragged about sexual assault. ---
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2017, 1:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-administration-a-clusterfuck-in-the-making/774070/7230 "2017-06-24T13:12:21Z")
You really want this thread to be about anything but Trump, eh? You weren’t obligated to vote for Hillary, either. She’s not the current President, hence the general not talking about her. ---
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2017, 1:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-administration-a-clusterfuck-in-the-making/774070/7231 "2017-06-24T13:14:14Z")
Oh, I get it. You think the thread is about YOU. Defensive much? ---
**Author:** ![Enuma\_Elish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5e9695/32.png) [@Enuma\_Elish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enuma_Elish)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2017, 1:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-administration-a-clusterfuck-in-the-making/774070/7232 "2017-06-24T13:14:20Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I agree with Obama’s actual worldview, which is far more “America first” than Trump’s (which is more like “Trump first”), as opposed to the fantasy right-wing radio version. > > And LOL that you think Trump gives a better impromptu speech than Obama. It’s true that Obama has never bragged, impromptu, about grabbing pussies. How old are you? Are you male? Have you never said stupid things about women while in the presence of men? Bill Clinton raped under aged girls on a billionaire’s jet. Does this not bother you? And don’t even claim it isn’t true. Bill Clinton is/was sex pervert personified. ---
**Author:** ![Enuma\_Elish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5e9695/32.png) [@Enuma\_Elish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enuma_Elish)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2017, 1:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-administration-a-clusterfuck-in-the-making/774070/7233 "2017-06-24T13:15:35Z")
Its late. I’m logging out now. See you peeps later. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2017, 1:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-administration-a-clusterfuck-in-the-making/774070/7234 "2017-06-24T13:16:50Z")
> [@Enuma\_Elish](#): > > How old are you? Are you male? Have you never said stupid things about women while in the presence of men? In my 30s. I’ve never bragged about sexual assault. Bragging about sexual assault is different than bragging about how much the girls love you and want to have sex with you. > [@](#): > > Bill Clinton raped under aged girls on a billionaire’s jet. Does this not bother you? > And don’t even claim it isn’t true. Bill Clinton is/was sex pervert personified. True or not, it doesn’t excuse Trump’s bragging about sexual assault or anything else Trump has done. The Trump White House thanks you for your continued defense of the indefensible. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2017, 1:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-administration-a-clusterfuck-in-the-making/774070/7235 "2017-06-24T13:20:58Z")
> [@Enuma\_Elish](#): > > I started to read your list and then realized that it wasn’t a list of Trump’s lies, but a list of lies the left claims of Trump. > > Do you have a list of Bill Clinton’s lies? > > Do you have a list of Obama’s lies? > > Do you have a list of Hillary’s lies? > > Obviously not. > > I hated having to vote for Trump. He was the lesser of two evils. But people like you -liberals who can’t see, or refuse to see, the faults in everyone, made my vote easier. I started to read your post and then realized that it wasn’t a real inquiry, but an attempt to deflect from the list of lies I posted. Did you read the list of Trump’s lies? Did you do any fact checking of Trump’s lies? Did you do any critical thinking whatsoever? Obviously not. I hate that you are so stupid that you thought you had to vote for Trump. That mindset is one of the greater evils of our time. And people like you - conservatives who can’t see, or refuse to see, the faults in Donald Trump, make everyone’s life worse. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2017, 1:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-administration-a-clusterfuck-in-the-making/774070/7236 "2017-06-24T13:22:45Z")
> [@Enuma\_Elish](#): > > His detractors, even if they hated him, gave him a chance. He chose to not make any effort to work with Republicans. The current Democrats have never given Trump a chance. Let’s go to the quarry and throw stuff down there! When did they do this? ---
**Author:** ![BlankSlate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blankslate/32/80_2.png) [@BlankSlate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlankSlate)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2017, 1:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-administration-a-clusterfuck-in-the-making/774070/7237 "2017-06-24T13:28:16Z")
> [@Enuma\_Elish](#): > > If you are so instilled in your left-wing ideology, there is nothing I can show you now. I’m too drunk. If you are serious, I will try to give cites later. Fucking H. anyone with any sense and any basic curiosity knows PolitiFact is bullshit. Let’s play a game. (If you chose to play, drunk guy pulling shit out of his ass doesn’t count as factual evidence) I found a [chronological list](https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2017/06/23/opinion/trumps-lies.html) of Trump’s lies. You can refute them one by one. The first ten: **JAN. 21** “I wasn’t a fan of Iraq. I didn’t want to go into Iraq.” (He was for an invasion before he was against it.) **JAN. 21** “A reporter for Time magazine — and I have been on their cover 14 or 15 times. I think we have the all-time record in the history of Time magazine.” (Trump was on the cover 11 times and Nixon appeared 55 times.) **JAN. 23** “Between 3 million and 5 million illegal votes caused me to lose the popular vote.” (There’s no evidence of illegal voting.) **JAN. 25** “Now, the audience was the biggest ever. But this crowd was massive. Look how far back it goes. This crowd was massive.” (Official aerial photos show Obama’s 2009 inauguration was much more heavily attended.) **JAN. 25** “Take a look at the Pew reports (which show voter fraud.)” (The report never mentioned voter fraud.) **JAN. 25** “You had millions of people that now aren’t insured anymore.” (The real number is less than 1 million, according to the Urban Institute.) **JAN. 25** “So, look, when President Obama was there two weeks ago making a speech, very nice speech. Two people were shot and killed during his speech. You can’t have that.” (There were no gun homicide victims in Chicago that day.) **JAN. 26** “We’ve taken in tens of thousands of people. We know nothing about them. They can say they vet them. They didn’t vet them. They have no papers. How can you vet somebody when you don’t know anything about them and you have no papers? How do you vet them? You can’t.” (Vetting lasts up to two years.) **JAN. 26** “I cut off hundreds of millions of dollars off one particular plane, hundreds of millions of dollars in a short period of time. It wasn’t like I spent, like, weeks, hours, less than hours, and many, many hundreds of millions of dollars. And the plane’s going to be better.” (Most of the cuts were already planned.) **JAN. 28** “The coverage about me in the @nytimes and the @washingtonpost has been so false and angry that the Times actually apologized to its dwindling subscribers and readers.” (It never apologized.) Since you’re a Trumpy dumbass, you’ll probably start sobbing “der, fake news” because of the source. Put up, or shut the fuck up. And hurry up, because there are hundreds more. ---
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2017, 1:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-administration-a-clusterfuck-in-the-making/774070/7238 "2017-06-24T13:36:12Z")
Bill Clinton is also piece of shit, but not the subject of this thread. [QUOTE=Enuma Elish] How is Trump sexually predatory? [/QUOTE] I’m using his own words, of course. > [@Enuma\_Elish](#): > > How old are you? Are you male? Have you never said stupid things about women while in the presence of men? I’d bet money he’s never bragged about sexually assaulting any. Look, there’s two ways to interpret this. Either Trump bragged about committing sexual assault, or he lied about committing sexual assault, as a brag. A good indication that he is, in fact, bragging about actual assault is that women have been saying he’s doing that stuff since 1997, and their stories are corroborated by other people. Either way, the idea that you expect victims of sexual assault and abuse to just roll over and ‘‘give him a chance’’ is fucking disgusting, but I guess I’m not surprised considering that’s exactly what my family did to me. The fact that I _don’t_ hate you and your ilk for your minimizing, apologist bullshit has nothing to do with what you deserve and everything to do with who I am as a person. That you apparently think this behavior is normal ‘‘guy stuff’’ is really fucking squicky. I know grizzled Marines who are creeped the fuck out, and rightly outraged on behalf of their daughters, who will spend the rest of their lives dealing with pieces of shit like Trump. If you looked at the balance of candidates and decided Trump was your lesser of two evils, whatevs. I have friends who voted for Trump but who made no attempt to excuse his disgusting behavior. But you don’t get to minimize all the terrible shit he has done just so you can feel better about yourself for making that choice. ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2017, 1:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-administration-a-clusterfuck-in-the-making/774070/7239 "2017-06-24T13:37:49Z")
> [@Enuma\_Elish](#): > > His detractors, even if they hated him, gave him a chance. He chose to not make any effort to work with Republicans. The current Democrats have never given Trump a chance. You’re joking, right? [The Real Story of Obamacare’s Birth](https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2015/07/the-real-story-of-obamacares-birth/397742/) > [@](#): > > But with Obama’s blessing, the Senate, through its Finance Committee, took a different tack, and became the fulcrum for a potential grand bargain on health reform. Chairman Max Baucus, in the spring of 2009, signaled his desire to find a bipartisan compromise, working especially closely with Grassley, his dear friend and Republican counterpart, who had been deeply involved in crafting the Republican alternative to Clintoncare. Baucus and Grassley convened an informal group of three Democrats and three Republicans on the committee, which became known as the “Gang of Six.” They covered the parties’ ideological bases; the other GOPers were conservative Mike Enzi of Wyoming and moderate Olympia Snowe of Maine, and the Democrats were liberal Jeff Bingaman of New Mexico and moderate Kent Conrad of North Dakota. > > … > > What became clear before September, when the talks fell apart, is that Senate Republican Leader Mitch McConnell had warned both Grassley and Enzi that their futures in the Senate would be much dimmer if they moved toward a deal with the Democrats that would produce legislation to be signed by Barack Obama. They both listened to their leader. An early embrace by both of the framework turned to shrill anti-reform rhetoric by Grassley—talking, for example, about death panels that would kill grandma—and statements by Enzi that he was not going to sign on to a deal. The talks, nonetheless, continued into September, and the emerging plan was at least accepted in its first major test by the third Republican Gang member, Olympia Snowe (even if she later joined every one of her colleagues to vote against the plan on the floor of the Senate.) > > Obama could have moved earlier to blow the whistle on the faux negotiations; he did not, as he held out hope that a plan that was fundamentally built on Republican ideas would still, in the end, garner at least some Republican support. He and Senate Democratic leaders held their fire even as Grassley and Enzi, in the negotiations, fought for some serious changes in a plan that neither would ever consider supporting in the end. If Obama had, as conventional wisdom holds, jammed health reform through at the earliest opportunity, there would have been votes in the Senate Finance Committee in June or July of 2009, as there were in the House. Instead, the votes came significantly later. > > To be sure, the extended negotiations via the Gang of Six made a big difference in the ultimate success of the reform, but for other reasons. When Republicans like Hatch and Grassley began to write op-eds and trash the individual mandate, which they had earlier championed, as unconstitutional and abominable, it convinced conservative Democrats in the Senate that every honest effort to engage Republicans in the reform effort had been tried and cynically rebuffed. So when the crucial votes came in the Senate, in late December 2009, Harry Reid succeeded in the near-impossible feat of getting all 60 Democrats, from Socialist Bernie Sanders and liberal Barbara Boxer to conservatives Joe Lieberman, Ben Nelson, Mark Pryor, and Blanche Lincoln, to vote for cloture, to end the Republican filibuster, and to pass their version of the bill. All sixty were needed because every single Republican in the Senate voted against cloture and against the bill. Was this simply a matter of principle? The answer to that question was provided at a later point by Mitch McConnell, who made clear that the unified opposition was a ruthlessly pragmatic political tactic. He said, “It was absolutely critical that everybody be together because if the proponents of the bill were able to say it was bipartisan, it tended to convey to the public that this is O.K., they must have figured it out.” ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2017, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-administration-a-clusterfuck-in-the-making/774070/7240 "2017-06-24T13:46:03Z")
> [@Enuma\_Elish](#): > > I started to read your list and then realized that it wasn’t a list of Trump’s lies, but a list of lies the left claims of Trump. The difference, of course, being that the former is a list of all the things Trump lied about, while the latter is a light salad served with balsamic vinaigrette. :rolleyes: No seriously, what distinction do you see here? Is the New York Times inaccurate in its claims? Is the list wrong somehow? Are they wrong to point out that the _only_ documented statement from Trump before the Iraq war has him being in favor of invasion? Or are they wrong to say that Trump said that he was against invading Iraq? The sole critique I have for the list at a glance is that it doesn’t do enough to separate lies (like the bit about Iraq) from insane conspiracy theories (like that 3-5 million illegal votes were cast in the election) and simple falsehoods (I can imagine that Trump just got the number of TIME magazine covers wrong by eyeballing it or something). But then I remember that we’re talking about the president, and the fact that we have to make those distinctions so constantly in the first place depresses me. So what’s _your_ problem with this list? That it’s wrong? Or that it’s by liberals, and therefore you don’t care? > [@](#): > > Do you have a list of Hillary’s lies? > > Obviously not. To be fair, Clinton didn’t run a campaign based primarily on lies. Her policies and claims were largely on the level, bar a few significant whoppers (which got utterly disproportionate coverage at times - can you find me one lie from Trump that got anywhere near the same coverage from the media that “Director Comey said my answers were truthful” got?). Trump’s campaign was essentially characterized by lies. There’s a reason the media called him out as the most dishonest campaign in history. Because it was! Because Trump constantly and consistently lied about _everything_. That’s why it’s so important to point out the scope of this. When a candidate lies _more than 500 unique times in his campaign_, that’s not normal! I know we’re all jaded about dishonest politicians who don’t keep their promises, but _this is not normal_! The reason you didn’t see such high-profile lists about Clinton was that her lying was absolutely within normal bounds for a political campaign. > [@](#): > > I hated having to vote for Trump. He was the lesser of two evils. But people like you -liberals who can’t see, or refuse to see, the faults in everyone, made my vote easier. What was so evil about Clinton that you _still_ think this, 6 months later? > [@Enuma\_Elish](#): > > Obama was/is an Illinois Democrat who came from a uber-union philosophy. The man can’t even give an impromptu speech. Trump isn’t perfect, but at least he can speak to a crowd without a teleprompter. First question: _what?!_ [Are you serious](https://twitter.com/StigAbell/status/763075178926596096?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw&ref_url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.huffingtonpost.co.uk%2Fentry%2Fdonald-trumps-rambling-90-second-speech-stuns-english-speaking-world_uk_57ab37d7e4b08ab70dc0f646)? There were a whole lot of Trump’s [speeches](https://mic.com/articles/120785/best-quotes-from-donald-trumps-2016-presidential-announcement-speech#.HCH6pgguA), [interview answers](http://edition.cnn.com/2017/05/01/politics/donald-trump-andrew-jackson-wiretapping/index.html), [debate answers](http://www.vox.com/world/2016/10/19/13341882/donald-trump-third-debate-aleppo), et cetera that were just _utterly_ incoherent. He seems to struggle to stay on topic for more than a few seconds in many of his statements. This is _not_ Second question: _why does this matter_? Why does the ability to make an unscripted speech (something rarely if ever necessary) matter this much? And doesn’t the _content_ of the speech matter more, like whether or not it reflects a coherent, sensible philosophy? Or whether the information contained therein is accurate? > [@](#): > > If you can’t/won’t see that you are incapable of seeing Obama for who he is and what he can/can’t do. See him for what he is and judge him for what he is, not for what your ideal of him is. Fuck sakes, he was the President for 8 years - but he wasn’t perfect. If you agree with Obama’s ‘worldview’ over America first policies, fine, but many people like me want America before the world, because in the end its a better policy for everyone in the world. I’m a little lost as to how Obama’s policy _wasn’t_ “America first”. Perhaps if you believe Trump’s childish rhetoric about how China’s a currency manipulator or Syrian refugees are all dangerous, and think his childish solutions (slap China with tariffs and ban muslim immigrants, respectively) are good ideas, then it makes some sense. But they _aren’t_. They don’t hold up to even the slightest scrutiny. > [@Enuma\_Elish](#): > > Please don’t quote PolitiFacts at me. They are so casually left wing and completely biased and in-accurate in their polls and judgement. You might as well quote CNN… What sources do you reach to, if you don’t mind me asking? Politifacts has a long, well-established history of bipartisan fact-checking. I have yet to hear of any major inaccuracies from them - at worst, I can think of similar or related cases where they made tough calls that weren’t the same, and immediately got attacked for “bias”. Also, you _are_ aware that right-wing media has spent the last 20 years attacking literally any source that doesn’t support the republican party, right? Any source which doesn’t toe the party line gets slagged off with the label of “liberal bias”, regardless of how rational that is. > [@Enuma\_Elish](#): > > His detractors, even if they hated him, gave him a chance. He chose to not make any effort to work with Republicans. The current Democrats have never given Trump a chance. [Is there a single right-wing myth you don’t believe](https://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2017/01/16/obamas_unsung_bipartisan_legacy_132798.html)? Obama was _phenomenally_ bipartisan. [He _constantly_ reached out for Republican support](http://www.themodestproposal.com/?p=151), until it became increasingly clear that doing so was a huge waste of time. Spectacles like [McConnell filibustering _his own bill_](https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/plum-line/wp/2012/12/06/dem-unity-forces-mcconnell-to-filibuster-his-own-proposal/) to prevent Obama from getting a “win”. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2017, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-administration-a-clusterfuck-in-the-making/774070/7241 "2017-06-24T13:54:08Z")
> [@Enuma\_Elish](#): > > If you are so instilled in your left-wing ideology, there is nothing I can show you now. I’m too drunk. If you are serious, I will try to give cites later. Fucking H. anyone with any sense and any basic curiosity knows PolitiFact is bullshit. You must be on the mightiest drunk of all time if you think I’m left-wing. Yes, I’m serious. Even here in The BBQ Pit, people expect proof of your assertions. > [@Enuma\_Elish](#): > > This is why anyone who isn’t a far-left liberal has stopped posting here. Even the Mods are full of shit. PolitiFact or CNN are legitimate news sources? No they aren’t. If you think so - you shouldn’t me a Mod. > > And don’t imply I am a liar. I hated voting for Trump. He was/is self absorbed and seemed to be only interested in money/fame. I hated voting for Hillary the liar and killer more. > > If you think Hillary wasn’t a liar and responsible for the death of innocents, you are far too believing of left-wing bullshit to be in a position of power, but what can anyone who judges by his/her political beliefs instead of what he/she sees > do other than jump down the throats of people who actually judge by what they see? 1. That mighty drunk seems to be getting worse. 2. Yes, they are legitimate news sources. I daresay they manage to support their reporting better than you’re defending your hero. 3. How, exactly, was she responsible? 4. I judge by rational exercise of the mind the Good Lord gave me. You should try that. 5. Well, you appear to be blind drunk, so what you see(or think you see) might not really be there. 6. I’m not a mod. > [@Enuma\_Elish](#): > > How old are you? Are you male? Have you never said stupid things about women while in the presence of men? > > Bill Clinton raped under aged girls on a billionaire’s jet. Does this not bother you? > And don’t even claim it isn’t true. Bill Clinton is/was sex pervert personified. 1. I’m 58. I have never once in my life bragged about nor even given advice on how to molest women. 2. When and where did these rapes occur? What is your proof? See above about assertions. ---
**Author:** ![ThelmaLou](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thelmalou/32/390_2.png) [@ThelmaLou](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ThelmaLou)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2017, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-administration-a-clusterfuck-in-the-making/774070/7242 "2017-06-24T14:01:03Z")
The recent discussion illustrates the futility of confronting a Trump supporter with reality. They don’t like it, can’t face it, and thus don’t believe in it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-administration-a-clusterfuck-in-the-making/774070.md?page=361) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-administration-a-clusterfuck-in-the-making/774070.md?page=363)