# The Trump Administration: A Clusterfuck in the Making **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [December 7, 2016, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-administration-a-clusterfuck-in-the-making/774070 "2016-12-07T00:25:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 478
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2017, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-administration-a-clusterfuck-in-the-making/774070/9544 "2017-08-07T17:56:29Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > refusing to be alone with a member of the opposite sex is something I must commend him on rather than denigrate him. It is a practical work and personal life policy For him, maybe. How about for women in his organization that lack the same free access to him that men do? ---
**Author:** ![cuauhtemoc](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecb155/32.png) [@cuauhtemoc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cuauhtemoc)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2017, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-administration-a-clusterfuck-in-the-making/774070/9545 "2017-08-07T18:20:03Z")
To keep it fair, he should refuse to be alone with anyone at any time. He can be with two or more people, regardless of sex or gender, or he can be alone. Would that work? ---
**Author:** ![SaneBill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e68b1a/32.png) [@SaneBill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SaneBill)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2017, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-administration-a-clusterfuck-in-the-making/774070/9546 "2017-08-07T18:22:25Z")
Can you imagine the Republican outrage if Hillary Clinton would’ve said that she will not be alone with any man unless her husband will also be present. ---
**Author:** ![ZPG\_Zealot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e47c2d/32.png) [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2017, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-administration-a-clusterfuck-in-the-making/774070/9547 "2017-08-07T19:18:38Z")
> [@amarinth](#): > > If you have a job where work is only conducted in public, during business hours, and there is no socialization (during or after work) between managers and subordinates, and both promotions and pay raises are based only on objectively measurable criteria, it’s fine. > > However, with many jobs (and especially with the type of work that Pence has), that’s not the case. This “rule” adds a significant barrier to women who wish to excel. They can’t have a beer after work with the boss. They can’t be the only one working late nights on a project. If there is a classified or highly confidential project, they can’t be the one the boss works with, the project will have to go to a man. They definitely can’t be the one on a business trip, again, it will have to be a male subordinate. They’ll never be the person the boss gets to know well because they lack face time. Basically, they can’t be the “go to guy” in the office, at best they’ll be the “go to during hours where my wife has free time to babysit me guy.” And when it comes time for raises, for promotions, etc. they will not get the rewards because they haven’t been able to have the opportunities to excel and they will not have the relationship with the manager that gets that result. There are plenty of jobs were you can’t have a beer after work with boss simply because the boss doesn’t like to have a beer (or otherwise socialize outside of the office) with anybody. It’s a “barrier” that is micro-tissue thin (if it exists at all) when employees are evaluated for promotion on their merits rather than brown nosing ability which is what we should be striving for not the environment that everyone has to be BFFs to work together. I’ve managed my entire professional career without ever having to be alone with a man not related to me by blood or marriage. The “opportunities” I might have missed have involved physically defending myself from sexual assault. The only type of “go to guys” that upper management absolutely have to be alone with are the ones they go to for sex. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2017, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-administration-a-clusterfuck-in-the-making/774070/9548 "2017-08-07T19:22:30Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > For him, maybe. How about for women in his organization that lack the same free access to him that men do? They don’t need to worry about hand-rapes. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Anny\_Middon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/bc79bd/32.png) [@Anny\_Middon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anny_Middon)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2017, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-administration-a-clusterfuck-in-the-making/774070/9549 "2017-08-07T19:41:08Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > While I think Pence is a menace to the government, refusing to be alone with a member of the opposite sex is something I must commend him on rather than denigrate him. It is a practical work and personal life policy that greatly reduces the possibility of being accused of sexual impropriety. I know many male teachers, coaches, and religious figures, etc., who adhere to a similar, or more stringent, policies. So a pastor has a female member of his flock that requests counseling on a private matter. The pastor refuses to meet alone with her? IMHO this is not fulfilling the responsibilities of his job. A male CEO who has this practice is barred from hiring a female CFO no matter how qualified because occasionally he has to meet one-on-one with his CFO to discuss confidential financial information. Really? A man works hard at a job he loves. In the geographical area where he lives, the organization he works for is the only one which can provide him with the experience he needs to succeeds. His boss retires, and the company replaces the boss with a woman. Does the man quit his job? ---
**Author:** ![ZPG\_Zealot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e47c2d/32.png) [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2017, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-administration-a-clusterfuck-in-the-making/774070/9550 "2017-08-07T19:49:04Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > For him, maybe. How about for women in his organization that lack the same free access to him that men do? How about the men in his organization that Pence doesn’t fraternize with because they have annoying voices? Communication (at least the type that should be occurring in a government office during working hours) shouldn’t require being alone with someone. ---
**Author:** ![ZPG\_Zealot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e47c2d/32.png) [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2017, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-administration-a-clusterfuck-in-the-making/774070/9551 "2017-08-07T20:00:11Z")
> [@Anny\_Middon](#): > > So a pastor has a female member of his flock that requests counseling on a private matter. The pastor refuses to meet alone with her? IMHO this is not fulfilling the responsibilities of his job. That may be your HO, but many ministers, priests, rabbis, imans, etc., do not meet with female members of their congregation unchaperoned precisely because the responsibilities of his or her job include protecting the reputations of members of their flock > [@Anny\_Middon](#): > > A male CEO who has this practice is barred from hiring a female CFO no matter how qualified because occasionally he has to meet one-on-one with his CFO to discuss confidential financial information. Really? A CEO and a CFO conducting any legitimate discussion of financial information will have underlings from clerical and legal documenting what’s going on. They wouldn’t be alone together. > [@Anny\_Middon](#): > > A man works hard at a job he loves. In the geographical area where he lives, the organization he works for is the only one which can provide him with the experience he needs to succeeds. His boss retires, and the company replaces the boss with a woman. Does the man quit his job? No, but he may be fired from his job if he throws a hissy fit insisting his female boss must be alone with him. ---
**Author:** ![Sherrerd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sherrerd/32/8_2.png) [@Sherrerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sherrerd)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2017, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-administration-a-clusterfuck-in-the-making/774070/9552 "2017-08-07T20:02:13Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > How about the men in his organization that Pence doesn’t fraternize with because they have annoying voices? Say what? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Bredin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/96bed5/32.png) [@John\_Bredin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Bredin)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2017, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-administration-a-clusterfuck-in-the-making/774070/9553 "2017-08-07T20:12:54Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > Communication (at least the type that should be occurring in a government office during working hours) shouldn’t require being alone with someone. 😕 I work in a government branch where almost everything we do is transparent public record once it’s done, but is supposed to be totally and completely confidential while it’s being processed. We routinely have private meetings. ---
**Author:** ![Finagle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/b19c9b/32.png) [@Finagle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Finagle)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2017, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-administration-a-clusterfuck-in-the-making/774070/9554 "2017-08-07T20:15:41Z")
> [@Aspenglow](#): > > Pence is the Mercers’, and therefore Bannon’s, guy. Politics does indeed make strange bedfellows. Big, nasty money behind Pence. > > Pence has been doing a ton of stuff behind the scenes as he angles for the nomination in 2020 – or, possibly sooner (he hopes), Trump’s replacement. I find him more repulsive even than Trump, because he hides his corrupt, lizardy nature behind a facade of pious adoration as he gazes at Trump with steadfast "loyalty. In many ways, I find Pence to be a far worse person that Trump. Now don’t get me wrong, Trump is vileness incarnate. But for all his myriad, _myriad_ faults and his complete unfamiliarity with the concept of “truth”, Trump has, somewhat surprisingly, been trying to keep his campaign promises. Mind you, they are horrible promises that no sane or intelligent person would have made or would contemplate keeping, but Trump, as a political newbie, is gamely trying to build his stupid wall and create his various bans and tear down the EPA because that’s what he told his base he would do. And Pence has had his back 100%, rolling up his sleeves and reliably casting the 51st vote in the Senate, plugging for the repeal of healthcare, and talking up Trump’s policies. But, the thing is, unlike Trump, Pence is supposed to be at least nominally sane, politically savvy, and somewhat cognizant that an exceedingly slim electoral victory means that there is about 50% of the population that isn’t behind your policies. In addition, Pence is literally the one person in the Executive Branch who isn’t serving at the President’s pleasure. No one except maybe Congress can dismiss the Vice President. He could actually take a moral stance or two and act as the cricket on Trump’s shoulder. The fact that he hasn’t done this indicates to me that he’s A-OK with all the batshit lunacy going on. Which means that he has no more business than Trump does to be sitting in the Oval Office. ---
**Author:** ![Rick\_Kitchen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rick_kitchen/32/522_2.png) [@Rick\_Kitchen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick_Kitchen)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2017, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-administration-a-clusterfuck-in-the-making/774070/9555 "2017-08-07T20:18:46Z")
Trump tweeted his praise for a Twitter account that kept posting pro-Trump propaganda that turned out to have been created by someone who stole another person’s identity to create the account, and apparently several more, all associated with the pro-Trump protrump45 dot com website. Twitter has banned all of them. > **[Twitter Bans Throng Of Fake Twitter Accounts After Trump Praises Propaganda...](https://crooksandliars.com/2017/08/twitter-bans-throng-fake-twitter-accounts)** > > Twitter suspended a number of fake accounts over the weekend that were using false names to spread pro-Trump propaganda. ---
**Author:** ![Sherrerd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sherrerd/32/8_2.png) [@Sherrerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sherrerd)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2017, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-administration-a-clusterfuck-in-the-making/774070/9556 "2017-08-07T20:21:58Z")
> [@John\_Bredin](#): > > 😕 I work in a government branch where almost everything we do is transparent public record once it’s done, but is supposed to be totally and completely confidential while it’s being processed. We routinely have private meetings. Sure, and so do most private enterprises. This “rule” is clearly intended to divide humanity into People and Dangerous Temptresses. It’s just a Western version of purdah, and has the same goal of segregating females into ‘seclusion’ as do the practices of fundamentalist Hinduism and Islam (and fundamentalist Judaism too, though there, I gather, the word ‘purdah’ isn’t used). As with purdah, Pence’s version is always discussed in terms of how it “protects” women. > **[Purdah | Veil, Seclusion & Gender Roles](https://www.britannica.com/topic/purdah)** > > Purdah, practice that was inaugurated by Muslims and later adopted by various Hindus, especially in India, and that involves the seclusion of women from public observation by means of concealing clothing (including the veil) and by the use of... ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2017, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-administration-a-clusterfuck-in-the-making/774070/9557 "2017-08-07T20:25:34Z")
Can ZPG Zealot’s well-established sexism be taken to another thread? Yes, she believes in segregating the sexes and slut-shaming women who do not abide by her choices. No, she won’t make any more sense no matter how much you ask. ---
**Author:** ![Malleus\_Incus\_Stapes](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/malleus_incus_stapes/32/3293_2.png) [@Malleus\_Incus\_Stapes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malleus_Incus_Stapes)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2017, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-administration-a-clusterfuck-in-the-making/774070/9558 "2017-08-07T20:26:03Z")
> [@Lord\_Feldon](#): > > When that info came out, I read stuff from a _bunch_ of conservative Christians who were surprised that anybody found it noteworthy, let alone possibly problematic. It wasn’t so much that it was an expectation, just that they thought it was obvious common sense. A lot of them called it something like “putting a fence around your marriage.” Likewise, I come from a very conservative Jewish background, and not being alone with someone of the opposite sex is actual religious law. So it took me a bit to realize how alien it must seem to Joe Average. Even then, I’d think people would be all for anything that cut down on the number of sex scandals. I mean, some of those politicians practically need chastity belts. ---
**Author:** ![Sherrerd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sherrerd/32/8_2.png) [@Sherrerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sherrerd)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2017, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-administration-a-clusterfuck-in-the-making/774070/9559 "2017-08-07T20:30:25Z")
> [@Malleus\_Incus\_Stapes](#): > > Likewise, I come from a very conservative Jewish background, and not being alone with someone of the opposite sex is actual religious law. So it took me a bit to realize how alien it must seem to Joe Average. > Even then, I’d think people would be all for anything that cut down on the number of sex scandals. I mean, some of those politicians practically need chastity belts. It’s not my place to condemn anyone’s religious practice, but: how about self-control? You know, instead of declaring one gender to be the source of temptation and using that highly-questionable excuse to restrict their opportunities? On the other hand, it’s a whiz-bang solution to the problem of having to **compete fairly with 100% of the species** : Just cut that number in half! Problem solved! ---
**Author:** ![The\_Devil\_s\_Grandmother](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/74df32/32.png) [@The\_Devil\_s\_Grandmother](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Devil_s_Grandmother)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2017, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-administration-a-clusterfuck-in-the-making/774070/9560 "2017-08-07T20:37:49Z")
I’ve been seriously amused with all the Jeff Sessions looks like a keebler elf memes that have been going around. But I feel kind of bad all the bad press the keebler company must be getting over it. Any chance we’ll get a moderate into Session’s old senate seat? ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2017, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-administration-a-clusterfuck-in-the-making/774070/9561 "2017-08-07T20:46:46Z")
> [@The\_Devil\_s\_Grandmother](#): > > I’ve been seriously amused with all the Jeff Sessions looks like a keebler elf memes that have been going around. But I feel kind of bad all the bad press the keebler company must be getting over it. > Any chance we’ll get a moderate into Session’s old senate seat? I hear Ernest J. Keebler (assistant head elf) is looking to serve in public office as a way of giving back for all his personal success in business. ---
**Author:** ![ZPG\_Zealot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e47c2d/32.png) [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2017, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-administration-a-clusterfuck-in-the-making/774070/9562 "2017-08-07T20:49:19Z")
> [@Sherrerd](#): > > It’s not my place to condemn anyone’s religious practice, but: how about self-control? You know, instead of declaring one gender to be the source of temptation and using that highly-questionable excuse to restrict their opportunities? > > On the other hand, it’s a whiz-bang solution to the problem of having to **compete fairly with 100% of the species** : Just cut that number in half! Problem solved! The only opportunities restricted are of those of sexual predators seeking easy access to victims. Being excellent at your job shouldn’t require “private” time with the boss. ---
**Author:** ![ZPG\_Zealot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e47c2d/32.png) [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2017, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-administration-a-clusterfuck-in-the-making/774070/9563 "2017-08-07T20:53:08Z")
> [@Sherrerd](#): > > Sure, and so do most private enterprises. > > This “rule” is clearly intended to divide humanity into People and Dangerous Temptresses. It’s just a Western version of purdah, and has the same goal of segregating females into ‘seclusion’ as do the practices of fundamentalist Hinduism and Islam (and fundamentalist Judaism too, though there, I gather, the word ‘purdah’ isn’t used). > > As with purdah, Pence’s version is always discussed in terms of how it “protects” women. > > [Purdah | Veil, Seclusion & Gender Roles | Britannica](https://www.britannica.com/topic/purdah) Plenty of companies, academic campuses, and religious centers use this rule to protect the organization and the individual from sexual harassment and assault. It’s intended to protect potentially vulnerable people (low-level employees, students, congregation members, etc.) from predator by those with more social and/or organizational power. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-administration-a-clusterfuck-in-the-making/774070.md?page=477) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-administration-a-clusterfuck-in-the-making/774070.md?page=479)