# The Trump Administration: A Clusterfuck in the Making **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [December 7, 2016, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-administration-a-clusterfuck-in-the-making/774070 "2016-12-07T00:25:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 723
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2017, 8:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-administration-a-clusterfuck-in-the-making/774070/14445 "2017-12-20T08:37:39Z")
> [@Lord\_Feldon](#): > > Are low-information voters going to notice? One of the complaints I occasionally hear from Democrats about Obama is that when he cut payroll taxes, nobody really connected the few extra bucks on each paycheck to anything the government had done, unlike when Bush sent out the rebate checks in 2001. The feeling is that unless it looks like [this](https://www.ssa.gov/history/pics/check3.jpg), people won’t give the government credit. That’s a good point, and I remember being frustrated with Obama for not getting the politics right. So many people believed Obama actually raised taxes, when for years that wasn’t true at all and then it ultimately became true only for a very small percentage of the population. It’s hard to understand how George W. Bush could do it right (politically) in 2001 but the Democrats in 2009 and now the Republicans in 2017 don’t know better. If I can enjoy my tax cut, and at the same time Republicans get zero credit, I will consider that a win-win. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2017, 1:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-administration-a-clusterfuck-in-the-making/774070/14446 "2017-12-20T13:26:31Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > I think we should be wary of taking the deficit hawk position. Paul Krugman has said this was a big mistake among Clintonites, and I am inclined to agree with him. The drumbeat response to any Republican talk of “cuts” should be “Naaaah; we can pay for everything just fine with the yuuuuge economic growth spurt from your new tax plan”. Make them either shut up or admit they don’t believe their own bullshit. ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2017, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-administration-a-clusterfuck-in-the-making/774070/14447 "2017-12-20T14:38:23Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > Buuuut…if I had a magic button I could press to stop the bill from passing, I would be very, well, hard-pressed to press it. :o My family is right about at the national median for household income (grossing in the $50-55K range), we have four kids, and we don’t itemize. So while we obviously won’t get the huge windfall a billionaire will, it’s going to net us, what, three grand a year at least? Maybe even four or five Gs? When you’re living paycheck to paycheck like we are, that’s a lot of dough! Which is precisely the rationale of Republican voters, and their leadership, when they try to sell tax cuts. Who cares about the debt, the people who will be harmed by the inevitable cuts to public aid, the health of the country, or the massive benefits the super-wealthy get, or the continued support for corporate welfare? I got my tax break, so it’s all good. ---
**Author:** ![Crotalus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crotalus/32/41_2.png) [@Crotalus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crotalus)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2017, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-administration-a-clusterfuck-in-the-making/774070/14448 "2017-12-20T15:58:57Z")
These assholes keep finding new ways to shock and disgust me. Apparently, Scott Pruitt, who was obviously appointed to cripple the EPA, managed to have a superfund task force consisting of over 100 people meet for two months and produce no artifacts except for their final report. No agendas, no minutes, no reference documents. The guy who chaired the task force was a buddy of Pruitt’s, a disgraced banker. Story [here](http://talkingpointsmemo.com/news/pruitt-superfund-task-force-no-records). ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2017, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-administration-a-clusterfuck-in-the-making/774070/14449 "2017-12-20T16:12:45Z")
> [@Crotalus](#): > > These assholes keep finding new ways to shock and disgust me. Apparently, Scott Pruitt, who was obviously appointed to cripple the EPA, managed to have a superfund task force consisting of over 100 people meet for two months and produce no artifacts except for their final report. No agendas, no minutes, no reference documents. The guy who chaired the task force was a buddy of Pruitt’s, a disgraced banker. > > Story [here](http://talkingpointsmemo.com/news/pruitt-superfund-task-force-no-records). Trump is going to inflict decades worth of damage - and perhaps permanent damage - on the federal government. The plutocrats and religious fundamentalists who’ve hijacked this government have longed for the opportunity to destroy, and now that opportunity is upon them. Certain people were brought into to bring an axe to the federal bureaucracy, and Pruitt’s chopping the EPA to pieces. In the end, it’ll be the people in red state America who suffer because people in blue states will insist on keeping their state regulations. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2017, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-administration-a-clusterfuck-in-the-making/774070/14450 "2017-12-20T16:14:43Z")
> [@Hamlet](#): > > Which is precisely the rationale of Republican voters, and their leadership, when they try to sell tax cuts. Who cares about the debt, the people who will be harmed by the inevitable cuts to public aid, the health of the country, or the massive benefits the super-wealthy get, or the continued support for corporate welfare? I got my tax break, so it’s all good. It’s power. More money gets taken away from the public sector and pooled into a slim segment of the private sector. They’re destroying the public sector economy so that they can increase their power and replace public institutions with those that turn the rest of us into serfs. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2017, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-administration-a-clusterfuck-in-the-making/774070/14451 "2017-12-20T16:34:42Z")
> [@Ukulele\_Ike](#): > > Nikki Haley: “The US will be TAKING NAMES when the UN vote goes down on the Jerusalem decision!” > > [http://thehill.com/policy/international/365686-haley-the-us-will-be-taking-names-after-un-vote-on-jerusalem-decision](http://thehill.com/policy/international/365686-haley-the-us-will-be-taking-names-after-un-vote-on-jerusalem-decision) > > Huh. Maybe the Nikkster hasn’t quite got the “hang” of this “diplomacy” stuff yet? Are we also going to put a bad mark in their permanent record? ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Miskatonic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.miskatonic/32/310_2.png) [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2017, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-administration-a-clusterfuck-in-the-making/774070/14452 "2017-12-20T16:43:30Z")
Heyyyy, Trump took the petition site We The People offline. I’m sure his 2018 replacement, We the Oligarchs will be much more to his liking. > **[White House shuts down petition site, promises to resurrect it next year](https://www.theverge.com/2017/12/19/16795516/trump-white-house-we-the-people-petition-site-shutdown-relaunch)** > > The Verge is about technology and how it makes us feel. Founded in 2011, we offer our audience everything from breaking news to reviews to award-winning features and investigations, on our site, in video, and in podcasts. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2017, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-administration-a-clusterfuck-in-the-making/774070/14453 "2017-12-20T16:43:34Z")
> [@asahi](#): > > Trump is going to inflict decades worth of damage - and perhaps permanent damage - on the federal government. The plutocrats and religious fundamentalists who’ve hijacked this government have longed for the opportunity to destroy, and now that opportunity is upon them. Certain people were brought into to bring an axe to the federal bureaucracy, and Pruitt’s chopping the EPA to pieces. In the end, it’ll be the people in red state America who suffer because people in blue states will insist on keeping their state regulations. They are also destroying their economies. The only reason I ever visit redder states than Ohio is because they do have nice places to go visit. I like to go camping and hiking in areas that do not have obvious human footprints on them. If they go ahead and get rid of those natural areas, make them no longer a place to go out of your way to visit, how much money do red states lose due to dwindling tourism? ---
**Author:** ![Buck\_Godot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/buck_godot/32/6573_2.png) [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2017, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-administration-a-clusterfuck-in-the-making/774070/14454 "2017-12-20T17:04:32Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > Buuuut…if I had a magic button I could press to stop the bill from passing, I would be very, well, hard-pressed to press it. :o My family is right about at the national median for household income (grossing in the $50-55K range), we have four kids, and we don’t itemize. So while we obviously won’t get the huge windfall a billionaire will, it’s going to net us, what, three grand a year at least? Maybe even four or five Gs? When you’re living paycheck to paycheck like we are, that’s a lot of dough! The estimates I ahve been hearing, even from the bills supporters don’t indicate that you would get nearly that much. For 50K you are probably looking at about $1,200. Enough to take the family out to dinner at a cheap place once a week, but not enought to cover the increase in health insurance premiums you can expect. ---
**Author:** ![jasg](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f0a364/32.png) [@jasg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jasg)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2017, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-administration-a-clusterfuck-in-the-making/774070/14455 "2017-12-20T17:37:09Z")
> [@Buck\_Godot](#): > > The estimates I ahve been hearing, even from the bills supporters don’t indicate that you would get nearly that much. For 50K you are probably looking at about $1,200. Enough to take the family out to dinner at a cheap place once a week, but not enought to cover the increase in health insurance premiums you can expect. Here is a [calculator](http://taxplancalculator.com). $56k and four kids. $2351 savings. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2017, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-administration-a-clusterfuck-in-the-making/774070/14456 "2017-12-20T17:45:26Z")
> [@Buck\_Godot](#): > > The estimates I ahve been hearing, even from the bills supporters don’t indicate that you would get nearly that much. For 50K you are probably looking at about $1,200. Enough to take the family out to dinner at a cheap place once a week, but not enought to cover the increase in health insurance premiums you can expect. But i don’t think you’re factoring in the expanded child tax credit, which is not simply a deduction on your taxable income, but an actual reduction in your tax obligation. Also, because some of the tax credit is actually refundable, you can get some of it even after your income tax burden drops to zero. With an income of $55K, and assuming his four dependent children are under 18, **SlackerInc** will probably benefit considerably more than the average $55K taxpayer. I did some quick and dirty calculations on paper, and came out at a benefit of around $2500 for a family like his under the current plan, assuming i’m interpreting the child tax credit rules correctly (i’ve never had to deal with this part of the tax system myself). And on preview, i see that **jasg** has found a calculator, and its results seem pretty close to my calculations. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2017, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-administration-a-clusterfuck-in-the-making/774070/14457 "2017-12-20T17:48:09Z")
I admit that I’m not up on the final iteration of the bill, but from what I’ve followed, it’s entirely possible that the tax bill isn’t noticeably objectionable in the first year or two of implementation. At minimum, taxes for the working class would probably remain the same or even decrease - what’s not to like about that, right? The problem I see - and what I suspect the Paul Krugmans of the world also see - is that this is a stealth bill with a much larger agenda and impact in the years ahead. We’re not talking about whether to impose a 2 or 3 year tax rebate gimmick that gradually increases the deficit; we’re talking about major changes to the system. And the system is now saying, the extreme wealth holders desperately need more tax relief than the working poor. And so it goes: The wealthiest are the ones who get the relief! And we know that when intellectual economists and right wing think tanks start reaching a consensus that something needs to be done about the growing national debt, two radically different solutions will be proposed: the economists who actually study this stuff will say that the donor class need to have their taxes raised; the donor class and their propaganda machine will say it’s time that the poor and elderly stop sucking off the government teat. And by then their grip on congress might well be stronger than it is even now. America Democracy as we’ve known it for the past 100 years is sliding backward into the 19th Century, back to the days of the Frick and the Pinkertons. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2017, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-administration-a-clusterfuck-in-the-making/774070/14458 "2017-12-20T17:53:28Z")
> [@asahi](#): > > I admit that I’m not up on the final iteration of the bill, but from what I’ve followed, it’s entirely possible that the tax bill isn’t noticeably objectionable in the first year or two of implementation. At minimum, taxes for the working class would probably remain the same or even decrease - what’s not to like about that, right? > > The problem I see - and what I suspect the Paul Krugmans of the world also see - is that this is a stealth bill with a much larger agenda and impact in the years ahead. We’re not talking about whether to impose a 2 or 3 year tax rebate gimmick that gradually increases the deficit; we’re talking about major changes to the system. And the system is now saying, the extreme wealth holders desperately need more tax relief than the working poor. > > And so it goes: The wealthiest are the ones who get the relief! And we know that when intellectual economists and right wing think tanks start reaching a consensus that something needs to be done about the growing national debt, two radically different solutions will be proposed: the economists who actually study this stuff will say that the donor class need to have their taxes raised; the donor class and their propaganda machine will say it’s time that the poor and elderly stop sucking off the government teat. And by then their grip on congress might well be stronger than it is even now. > > America Democracy as we’ve known it for the past 100 years is sliding backward into the 19th Century, back to the days of the Frick and the Pinkertons. Taking our Country back! ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2017, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-administration-a-clusterfuck-in-the-making/774070/14459 "2017-12-20T18:25:02Z")
> [@asahi](#): > > And so it goes: The wealthiest are the ones who get the relief! And we know that when intellectual economists and right wing think tanks start reaching a consensus that something needs to be done about the growing national debt, two radically different solutions will be proposed: the economists who actually study this stuff will say that the donor class need to have their taxes raised; the donor class and their propaganda machine will say it’s time that the poor and elderly stop sucking off the government teat. And by then their grip on congress might well be stronger than it is even now. I wonder if we could start a thing where rich people would wear their tax returns on their shirts, and when we saw someone like that we’d say “thank you for your service”. Or maybe if you pay more than a million dollars in taxes the IRS sends you a green star to hang in your window, like we do for the poor and working-class families who give up their children’s lives for the country. ---
**Author:** ![jsc1953](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/5daacb/32.png) [@jsc1953](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jsc1953)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2017, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-administration-a-clusterfuck-in-the-making/774070/14460 "2017-12-20T20:10:54Z")
> [@Buck\_Godot](#): > > The estimates I ahve been hearing, even from the bills supporters don’t indicate that you would get nearly that much. For 50K you are probably looking at about $1,200. Enough to take the family out to dinner at a cheap place once a week, but not enought to cover the increase in health insurance premiums you can expect. NY Times had an online calculator to estimate the bill’s impact on your taxes. For my situation – income, filing status, the fact that I itemize (mortgage deduction) and live in a high-tax state-- the impact: $0. Thanks, Trump. ---
**Author:** ![suranyi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e36b37/32.png) [@suranyi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/suranyi)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2017, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-administration-a-clusterfuck-in-the-making/774070/14461 "2017-12-20T20:18:04Z")
> [@jsc1953](#): > > NY Times had an online calculator to estimate the bill’s impact on your taxes. For my situation – income, filing status, the fact that I itemize (mortgage deduction) and live in a high-tax state-- the impact: $0. > > Thanks, Trump. The same calculator shows that I might be expected to get a tax cut of about $800. Nice, but definitely not worth the well-reported problems this bill will cause. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2017, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-administration-a-clusterfuck-in-the-making/774070/14462 "2017-12-20T20:22:30Z")
Between a loss of $340 and a gain of $20 for me. Whee! 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Rick\_Kitchen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rick_kitchen/32/522_2.png) [@Rick\_Kitchen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick_Kitchen)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2017, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-administration-a-clusterfuck-in-the-making/774070/14463 "2017-12-20T20:36:14Z")
Anybody have a link to that tax calculator? ---
**Author:** ![Defensive\_Indifference](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/defensive_indifference/32/6502_2.png) [@Defensive\_Indifference](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Defensive_Indifference)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2017, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-administration-a-clusterfuck-in-the-making/774070/14464 "2017-12-20T20:44:21Z")
My wife and I are just over the line into the top 1% of American household income. According to the NY Times calculator, we will see a cut of between $13,000 and $19,000. And we will definitely use that money to create jobs!! Nah, just foolin’! We’ll put it in our retirement investments and kids’ college funds. Sorry, Trump voters, almost none of my savings will trickle down to you. That stuff you feel trickling on your head and down your back? It ain’t money. FTR, I hate Trump, I hate the Republican Party, and I hate this tax bill. I support higher taxes and more social safety net programs. Sure, I’ll enjoy the extra money, but I’d prefer living in a more just and sustainable economy. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-administration-a-clusterfuck-in-the-making/774070.md?page=722) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-administration-a-clusterfuck-in-the-making/774070.md?page=724)