# The Trump Administration: A Clusterfuck in the Making **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [December 7, 2016, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-administration-a-clusterfuck-in-the-making/774070 "2016-12-07T00:25:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 733
**Author:** ![enipla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/54ee81/32.png) [@enipla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enipla)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2017, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-administration-a-clusterfuck-in-the-making/774070/14645 "2017-12-23T01:31:58Z")
> [@Folacin](#): > > Why would China want it? I think the only real use they have for NK is as a buffer between a Western ally and their border. ehh… It’s thought that NK has a LOT of unexploited mineral resources. Not worth the trade off though. As much as I would love to see Kim Jong Un spend a few years in his own ‘re-education’ camps. And as much as I would love to help the NK people. I think the best solution is to see Kim die on the vine. It is a long living tree though. A NK war would kill 10’s of millions. ---
**Author:** ![AnalogSignal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/analogsignal/32/1085_2.png) [@AnalogSignal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AnalogSignal)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2017, 1:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-administration-a-clusterfuck-in-the-making/774070/14646 "2017-12-23T01:32:44Z")
> [@Johanna](#): > > Theodore Roosevelt: Speak softly and carry a big stick. > > Trump: Talk loud and be an insufferable weenie. Trump: Talk loud and throw the stick in the garbage because maybe Obama touched it. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2017, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-administration-a-clusterfuck-in-the-making/774070/14647 "2017-12-23T01:42:50Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > Consider akso that a number of ethnic Korean Chinese families have members who are DPRK citizens still in North Korea This would seem to be a “pro” towards occupation. “We will ensure your DPRK relatives have a better life” > [@](#): > > China still has a population problem, not likely to be alleviated with an influx of refugees. Of course there is also the danger of setting a precedent of allowing people to flee a country in search of freedom. That could have dire consequences on the other side of China, not to mention right there in the ethnic Korean part NK has like 2% of the population of China, would it really be that big of a problem? Plus they wouldn’t be fleeing the country, they would just stay there with what is probably a better way of life. Not being argumentative, just trying to understand. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2017, 1:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-administration-a-clusterfuck-in-the-making/774070/14648 "2017-12-23T01:44:26Z")
> [@enipla](#): > > ehh… It’s thought that NK has a LOT of unexploited mineral resources. Not worth the trade off though. > > As much as I would love to see Kim Jong Un spend a few years in his own ‘re-education’ camps. And as much as I would love to help the NK people. I think the best solution is to see Kim die on the vine. It is a long living tree though. A NK war would kill 10’s of millions. Yep. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2017, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-administration-a-clusterfuck-in-the-making/774070/14649 "2017-12-23T01:50:08Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > [Take a look at the egotestical Twit-In-Chief’s Presidential Coin](https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/its-very-gold-the-presidential-coin-undergoes-a-trumpian-makeover/2017/12/22/23c8b11e-e5bb-11e7-ab50-621fe0588340_story.html?hpid=hp_hp-top-table-main_trumpcoin405pm%3Ahomepage%2Fstory&utm_term=.196613f41088): Gold as all fuck, has his name on it _four times_…and can you guess what replaces _“E pluribus unum”_? > > “Make America Great Again” > > Someone call “The Onion” and tell them to pack it in-Trump spoofs himself, and our country, better than they ever could. Jesus. :smack: I was disappointed to learn the real presidential dollar system would not produce an Obama coin; but that disappointment is tempered by the fact that the same goes for Trump. I ordered hundreds of LBJ and JFK dollars from the US Mint, and they are the only dollars I use (any time I make a purchase, I add enough of them and smaller coins to make sure my change is a multiple of five dollars). > [@Monty](#): > > China doesn’t care about our military on their border; they already have unfriendly democracies bordering their territory. As others have stated–and you continue to ignore–what China cares about is what it calls stability on the Korean peninsula. Mightn’t it consider 47,000 square miles of trinitite “stability”? 😉 > [@Monty](#): > > Besides that, China does have to worry about its government spending. China [used more concrete between 2011 and 2013 than the U.S. used in the entire 20th century](http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/how-did-china-use-more-cement-between-2011-and-2013-than-the-us-used-in-the-entire-20th-century-10134079.html). I think they can handle it. > [@Monty](#): > > By the way, thanks for admitting your lack of actual concern for Koreans. It’s not a lack of concern for Koreans, it’s just a greater concern for me and mine. If I’m driving past a children’s hospital with my kids in tow, and snipers from within it start targeting my car, if I happen to have a grenade launcher with me, I’m firing away, no matter how many cute little sick moppets it might blow up in the process. Sorry! > [@Slash1972](#): > > They are not old, white guys, so why should he care? What the actual fuck are you talking about? I’m a Democrat. Get it straight. ---
**Author:** ![Catamount](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/catamount/32/2840_2.png) [@Catamount](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Catamount)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2017, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-administration-a-clusterfuck-in-the-making/774070/14650 "2017-12-23T01:55:10Z")
> [@running\_coach](#): > > Silly person. That’s why we have _smart_ bombs. To quote [Danny Elfman](https://youtu.be/ajVIiS65TFY), “the smart bombs are so clever they only kill bad people now.” Trump probably believes this. The adverb in the previous sentence is unnecessary. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2017, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-administration-a-clusterfuck-in-the-making/774070/14651 "2017-12-23T01:56:32Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > What the actual fuck are you talking about? I’m a Democrat. Get it straight. LOL, ok. Thanks for sharing. Let me know when your kids are in such a danger from North Korea that you think tens of thousands of dead Korean civilians in a war is worth it. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2017, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-administration-a-clusterfuck-in-the-making/774070/14652 "2017-12-23T02:00:30Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > LOL, ok. Thanks for sharing. Let me know when your kids are in such a danger from North Korea that you think tens of thousands of dead Korean civilians in a war is worth it. I’m not keen to wait until they have miniaturized warheads and dependable ICBMs. At that point, it’s too late. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2017, 2:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-administration-a-clusterfuck-in-the-making/774070/14653 "2017-12-23T02:24:13Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > Because it’s so fucking brilliant to sit by and let a raving loon–who kills his relatives and boasts of his plans to win nuclear war with America–continue to plug away at building better nukes and ICBMs to launch them. This country elected a guy who engages in massive criminal fraud, is probably indebted personally to Vladimir Putin, and sexually assaulted multiple women. Maybe he hasn’t committed murder (that we know of), but Donald Trump is no less of a raving lunatic than Kim Jung Un. What makes us “better” isn’t our president; it’s our democratic institutions - which our current president is setting out to destroy. Things like democracy, the rule of law, human rights. And this president could quite easily use a war on North Korea as a pretext to cripple those institutions. I think you need to see things through a more objective lens. > [@SlackerInc](#): > > Your Neville Chamberlain-style “solution” is likely to end up with at least as many Koreans dead, and millions more Americans along with them. :dubious: The Neville Chamberlain analogy doesn’t work here. North Korea isn’t threatening to invade another country to “protect” ethnic North Korean speaking populations in China, Japan, or even South Korea for that matter. Of course, again, bear in mind that this EXACTLY Vladimir Putin’s tactic - and may I remind you once more that our president is currently what the CIA may term an “asset” of Putin - that’s beyond obvious now. North Korea’s not threatening invasion, they’re not threatening to “rescue” North Koreans or even South Koreans. They’re just threatening to blow the shit out of any country that dares to test the regime. Which brings us to why we have the Russia problem to begin with: something happened in 2003, a thing called regime change. If you’re Kim Jung Un - or Vladimir Putin for that matter - and you’ve been called out as an unacceptable regime and you watch America’s invasion and Saddam Hussein drop from a rope an hour before the crystal ball drops from Times Square on New Year’s eve…how is it NOT rational to think that the United States is out to get you? Piece of scum or angel, what head of state wouldn’t take steps to defend their regime. You know, decades ago, we had a foreign policy that didn’t think in simplistic, binary terms of “good and evil”. We accepted that the world was a dangerous neighborhood and we sometimes have to do business with people we don’t like. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2017, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-administration-a-clusterfuck-in-the-making/774070/14654 "2017-12-23T02:30:49Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > I’m not keen to wait until they have miniaturized warheads and dependable ICBMs. At that point, it’s too late. This is probably how some within the Pentagon see this as well, and that’s what makes the situation dangerous. The North Koreans probably won’t even fire another missile until they’re done with their growing season - they’re reduced to using human shit as fertilizer. This is not a country that’s going to start lobbing nuclear missiles at its neighbors. But get close enough to that hive and they might assume you’re a predator that’s their to destroy it. The American era of regime change is probably more than anything to blame for some of its most difficult diplomatic situations. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2017, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-administration-a-clusterfuck-in-the-making/774070/14655 "2017-12-23T02:30:53Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > I’m not keen to wait until they have miniaturized warheads and dependable ICBMs. At that point, it’s too late. Russia has that. Do you think they are a huge threat to your children? ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2017, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-administration-a-clusterfuck-in-the-making/774070/14656 "2017-12-23T02:36:23Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > It’s not a lack of concern for Koreans, it’s just a greater concern for me and mine. If I’m driving past a children’s hospital with my kids in tow, and snipers from within it start targeting my car, if I happen to have a grenade launcher with me, I’m firing away, no matter how many cute little sick moppets it might blow up in the process. If I were to come straight out and state that I don’t care if your wife dies, no doubt I would get a warning from a mod. But you probably don’t understand that you just said to me you don’t care if my wife dies. But let’s take your nonsense, er, example. There are other, and legal and moral, options than committing a war crime or mass murder. > [@](#): > > Sorry! There is no longer even the shadow of a doubt. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2017, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-administration-a-clusterfuck-in-the-making/774070/14657 "2017-12-23T02:49:51Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > Russia has that. Do you think they are a huge threat to your children? “I hope the Russians love their children too.” As bad as Putin is (he [blew up apartment blocks of his own citizens as a false flag operation to gin up his own popularity](http://www.nybooks.com/articles/2012/11/22/finally-we-know-about-moscow-bombings/), not to mention helping us elect the Giant Cheeto of Doom and Facepalm), he–like his predecessor Stalin–is more rational than that. But if he weren’t, it would be too late to do anything about it and thus an irrelevant question. I do wonder: assuming there really are the massive number of alien civilizations that Carl Sagan and others calculated there must be (although there’s the Fermi paradox, but let’s set that aside for the sake of argument), on how many worlds did multiple nuclear powers develop? I have a feeling that in most cases, the first one would conquer the world. And while it sounds terrible for an American to say “Truman should have conquered the world”, if you think about it in a more abstract, universe-wide way, that does reduce the chances of armageddon. Anyway, there are a certain number of nuclear powers we can’t do anything about–genie’s out of the bottle. Is Pakistan in that category? I know they have nukes, but do they have ICBMs? In any event, that’s another case where I think we (meaning not just the U.S. but all the nuclear powers) should have drawn a line. Too much of a risk of an Islamist getting control of the arsenal. > [@asahi](#): > > This country elected a guy who engages in massive criminal fraud, is probably indebted personally to Vladimir Putin, and sexually assaulted multiple women. Maybe he hasn’t committed murder (that we know of), but Donald Trump is no less of a raving lunatic than Kim Jung Un. What makes us “better” isn’t our president; it’s our democratic institutions - which our current president is setting out to destroy. Things like democracy, the rule of law, human rights. And this president could quite easily use a war on North Korea as a pretext to cripple those institutions. I think you need to see things through a more objective lens. Again: I’m a Democrat, so I’m not sure what “lens” you’re referring to. And even if I were a Republican, I’d like to think I’d be one of the decent ones like Corker or Flake. Donald Trump is an absolute nightmare, and really embarrassing to boot. Still, I don’t agree that he’s as much of a raving lunatic as Kim Jong Un. (I think Trump actually ranks third in “raving lunacy” among world leaders, also behind Duterte, who thankfully does not have access to a nuclear arsenal.) Not to mention that as you say, the institutions around Trump are far better than those around KJU. ETA: **Monty** , I \*absolutely \*care if your wife dies. I just care _more_ whether mine dies. I think that’s pretty standard! ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2017, 2:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-administration-a-clusterfuck-in-the-making/774070/14658 "2017-12-23T02:53:35Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > Again: I’m a Democrat, so I’m not sure what “lens” you’re referring to Strange. I don’t know many Democrats that support tens of thousands of civilian deaths because they irrationally “fear for their children” ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2017, 3:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-administration-a-clusterfuck-in-the-making/774070/14659 "2017-12-23T03:28:24Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > Strange. I don’t know many Democrats that support tens of thousands of civilian deaths because they irrationally “fear for their children” You kind of begged that question, slipping in “irrationally”. 😛 But you’re entitled to that opinion. And you’re right that most Democrats would agree with you on that point. Lots of peaceniks in the party–I’m obviously not one. But I \*am \*into stuff like: “soak the rich” progressive taxation; universal health care; robust spending on public education (and making standards the same nationwide); increasing the minimum wage; instituting a basic income; tightly regulating industry for health, safety, and environmental impact; offering strong incentives for the use of clean energy; spending lots of tax dollars on public media, the arts, medical research, and basic science; instituting “sin taxes” on unhealthful foods and making sure schoolkids get good nutrition, Michelle Obama style; etc. What other party than the Democratic Party could I possibly adhere to with all those policy preferences? I just have to roll my eyes and deal with the peaceniks and America-lasters. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2017, 3:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-administration-a-clusterfuck-in-the-making/774070/14660 "2017-12-23T03:37:17Z")
Sorry, misread the post 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2017, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-administration-a-clusterfuck-in-the-making/774070/14661 "2017-12-23T03:40:17Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > And you’re right that most Democrats would agree with you on that point. Lots of peaceniks in the party–I’m obviously not one. But I \*am \*into stuff like: “soak the rich” progressive taxation; universal health care; robust spending on public education (and making standards the same nationwide); increasing the minimum wage; instituting a basic income; tightly regulating industry for health, safety, and environmental impact; offering strong incentives for the use of clean energy; spending lots of tax dollars on public media, the arts, medical research, and basic science; instituting “sin taxes” on unhealthful foods and making sure schoolkids get good nutrition, Michelle Obama style; etc. What other party than the Democratic Party could I possibly adhere to with all those policy preferences? I just have to roll my eyes and deal with the peaceniks and America-lasters. That’s cool. But with that kind of outlook, it would seem like other scenarios would occur to you besides “killing thousands of civilians to ensure a dictator doesn’t hurt my children” ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2017, 3:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-administration-a-clusterfuck-in-the-making/774070/14662 "2017-12-23T03:51:56Z")
[‘Ready to die’: Modesto man suspect in planned Christmas attack in San Francisco](http://www.modbee.com/news/article191271129.html) > [@](#): > > A former U.S. Marine with ties to Modesto and Merced has been accused of planning a Christmas Day terror attack in San Francisco, according to federal court documents. > > Everitt Aaron Jameson, 26, was targeting Pier 39 for the attack on Dec. 25, according to a criminal complaint. He was arrested Wednesday and charged with attempting to provide material support to a foreign terrorist organization. > > Jameson told an undercover FBI agent he “had been there before and knew it was a heavily crowded area,” according to the complaint. > > Jameson also met with the agent whom he believed to be associated with the senior leadership of the foreign terrorist organization, ISIS (the Islamic State of Iraq and al-Sham, also known as ISIL). During his interactions with this undercover agent, Jameson offered to carry out violent acts and to provide financial support for the terrorist organization. Not a tweet from the Howling Yam. I guess he doesn’t care about home grown Muslim terrorists. ---
**Author:** ![enipla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/54ee81/32.png) [@enipla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enipla)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2017, 3:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-administration-a-clusterfuck-in-the-making/774070/14663 "2017-12-23T03:54:00Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > \Still, I don’t agree that he’s as much of a raving lunatic as Kim Jong Un. (I think Trump actually ranks third in “raving lunacy” among world leaders, also behind Duterte, who thankfully does not have access to a nuclear arsenal.) Not to mention that as you say, the institutions around Trump are far better than those around KJU. hmm… I’ve read 5 books about Kim. And I don’t think he’s as much as a raving loon as Trump. Kim IS playing chess. Trump is just tossing the pieces about the board and claiming that he is winning. I DON’T consider Trumps administration, or the Republican congress to be better than those institutions around KJU. The people in power under KJU do so under threat of a bullet (as is seen over and over[not to mention 3 generations of their family being ‘re-educated’]). Trumps institutions and collaborators are in it for themselves WILLINGLY hoping to squeeze anything out of the moron in chief to put a few more bucks in their overflowing pockets. Now, Trumps supporters, the people that voted for him, are a whole 'nother kettle of fish. I say this as a well off 57 year old white man. The tomfoolery of the tax bill will put more money in my pocket. Trump rates third as a raving lunatic for world leaders? Lovely. ---
**Author:** ![Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/try2b_comprehensive/32/65_2.png) [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2017, 4:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-administration-a-clusterfuck-in-the-making/774070/14664 "2017-12-23T04:04:21Z")
The problem with America is that we don’t win anymore. We used to win, a lot. That seemed to change with Korea, where the US fought to this eternal stalemate instead of a victory. Well, a military victory over NK would certainly be a win, and more people would be tired of winning than believe it now, believe me. How acceptable _is_ it to live in a world where NK is armed with nuclear ICBMs? Do we really want to go there? But of course there is an excluded middle here. For instance, [the UN just imposed new sanctions](http://www.cnn.com/2017/12/22/politics/un-us-north-korea-resolution/index.html) > [@](#): > > Resolution 2397 cuts exports of gasoline, diesel and other refined oil products by a total of 89%, Haley said. > The resolution also bans exports of industrial equipment, machinery, transportation vehicles and industrial metals to North Korea. It requires countries using North Korean laborers to send them back home no later than 24 months from the adoption of the resolution. > The resolution also requires countries to stop ships from illegally providing oil to North Korea through ship-to-ship transfers and prohibits them from smuggling North Korean coal and other prohibited commodities by sea. IIRC, China has not been game for cutting off fuel before now. This may hurt NK a lot, and that population is not exactly comfortable now. If they proceed further with their nuclear program, they can be cut off even more painfully. We get a disaster no matter what. Millions of starving North Koreans. Or maybe a war, or maybe somebody gets nuked. No truly good choices AFAICT. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-administration-a-clusterfuck-in-the-making/774070.md?page=732) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-administration-a-clusterfuck-in-the-making/774070.md?page=734)