# The Trump era - what's surprised you the most? **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [June 17, 2018, 3:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-era-whats-surprised-you-the-most/816246 "2018-06-17T03:38:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2018, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-era-whats-surprised-you-the-most/816246/181 "2018-06-21T22:11:00Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Roy Moore was credibly accused of child molestation, Just because someone is associated with Trump does not make an accusation against them credible. It has not thus far proven sufficiently creditable to lead to an arrest or a prosecution, much less a conviction. So it is not yet a credible accusation. I could say much the same thing to some Republicans about their accusations against the Clintons. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2018, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-era-whats-surprised-you-the-most/816246/182 "2018-06-21T22:13:53Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > Just because someone is associated with Trump does not make an accusation against them credible. It has not thus far proven sufficiently creditable to lead to an arrest or a prosecution, much less a conviction. So it is not yet a credible accusation. > > I could say much the same thing to some Republicans about their accusations against the Clintons. Some of the accusations against Bill Clinton certainly are credible. And the fact that Roy Moore admitted to knowing at least some of the accusers, and didn’t deny dating at least one of them, as well as not denying that he did indeed pursue teenage girls, and then changing his story, makes those accusations extremely credible. Your usage of the word appears to be contrary to the common definition and usage. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Economist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2018, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-era-whats-surprised-you-the-most/816246/183 "2018-06-21T22:15:01Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > It has not thus far proven sufficiently creditable to lead to an arrest or a prosecution, much less a conviction. And it never will, thanks to something called the “statute of limitations,” which you probably would have known if you’d bothered to read up at all about the accusations. But who has time for that? ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2018, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-era-whats-surprised-you-the-most/816246/184 "2018-06-21T22:17:15Z")
In this case “credibly” appears to be largely in the eye of the beholder. **iiandyiiii** , could you be bothered to provide evidence for your self-proclaimed facts? For example, you say President Trump “unapologetically praised white supremacists”. What are you talking about? If I had to guess, I’d guess you’ve got in your mind something related to the protest in Charlottesville, but without you offering a cite or any specifics, we’re forced to guess. That’s not good when we’re trying to determine facts. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2018, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-era-whats-surprised-you-the-most/816246/185 "2018-06-21T22:41:21Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > In this case “credibly” appears to be largely in the eye of the beholder. > > **iiandyiiii** , could you be bothered to provide evidence for your self-proclaimed facts? For example, you say President Trump “unapologetically praised white supremacists”. What are you talking about? If I had to guess, I’d guess you’ve got in your mind something related to the protest in Charlottesville, but without you offering a cite or any specifics, we’re forced to guess. That’s not good when we’re trying to determine facts. Not interested in assisting your Trump apologetics or playing your semantic games (‘who built it…?’ Pathetic). I have no illusions that you’re actually interested in my cites. You know what kind of person Trump is, and you’ve decided to continue to support him, and if you’re fine with that, then that reveals a lot about your character. No point in any further discussion with you unless you want to take it to the Pit. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2018, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-era-whats-surprised-you-the-most/816246/186 "2018-06-21T22:46:13Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Not interested in assisting your Trump apologetics or playing your semantic games (‘who built it…?’ Pathetic). I have no illusions that you’re actually interested in my cites. You know what kind of person Trump is, and you’ve decided to continue to support him, and if you’re fine with that, then that reveals a lot about your character. No point in any further discussion with you unless you want to take it to the Pit. LOL! You’ve just vaporized your own claims to “facts”. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2018, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-era-whats-surprised-you-the-most/816246/187 "2018-06-21T22:48:56Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > That story was published in 2015. Was the president at the time “evil”? Yes. Or rather, the national security establishment he oversaw had evil elements, and he let them do very bad things. And as the First Black President, he got a pass from too many of us. (I cut him a lot of slack too; I’m guilty of shrugging about the illegal war in Libya.) But between ICE and the drone war (or properly terrorism), I could see that there were a lot of key decision makers in Obama’s administration without conscience. Wrong is wrong even if your rival also does it. Especially when it’s really not something you’re doing to each other, but wrong done to third parties by the same machine you & your rival both headed. If the Irish mob murdered black prostitutes under a leader called Sean, and they still murdered black prostitutes under a leader called Shem, neither Sean nor Shem could excuse this continued behavior by pointing to the other. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2018, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-era-whats-surprised-you-the-most/816246/188 "2018-06-21T22:51:21Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > LOL! You’ve just vaporized your own claims to “facts”. I hope one day you’ll actually realize how terrible sexual assault and harassment are, and how important it is to oppose them. Best wishes to you and your family. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2018, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-era-whats-surprised-you-the-most/816246/189 "2018-06-21T22:52:26Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > My understanding was that many / most of the “concentration camps for infants” were built during President Obama’s administration, but I’m open to reviewing evidence to the contrary. Makes one wonder if you do keep up with the news. “Built” implies that they were used before for the same reasons or at the same levels. > **[7 Myths About Family Separation At The Border, Debunked](https://www.bustle.com/p/7-myths-about-family-separation-at-the-border-debunked-9510303)** > > Deflect, defend, distort: This has been President Trump's response thus far to harsh criticisms of his "zero tolerance" approach to immigration. People have perpetuated numerous myths about Trump's family separation policy since reports surfaced… > [@](#): > > Katie Waldman, a spokeswoman for Nielsen, claimed in an interview with The Washington Post that the Obama administration also separated families. Migrant children were detained under the Obama administration, but they were rarely separated from their families. > > “There may have been some separation if there was suspicion that the children were being trafficked or a claimed parent-child relationship did not actually exist. But nothing like the levels we are seeing today,” Sarah Pierce, a policy analyst at the Migration Policy Institute, told The Post. > > \*\*Prior to the Trump administration, there was no policy requiring all illegal entry cases to be criminally prosecuted, thus causing the separation of all families caught crossing the border. \*\* ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2018, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-era-whats-surprised-you-the-most/816246/190 "2018-06-21T22:58:46Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > Are you? That child molester: did Trump praise the molestation of the children? I very much doubt it. Indeed, has this child molester actually been convicted? We have a statute of limitations on some crimes. I seem to remember this inhibited prosecution. (And technically, Roy Moore attacked and probably raped young adult women. But shouting “pedophile” is the hot new thing in my country, apparently.) ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2018, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-era-whats-surprised-you-the-most/816246/191 "2018-06-21T22:59:29Z")
> [@foolsguinea](#): > > We have a statute of limitations on some crimes. I seem to remember this inhibited prosecution. (And technically, Roy Moore attacked and probably raped young adult women. But shouting “pedophile” is the hot new thing in my country, apparently.) No, some of them were underage. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2018, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-era-whats-surprised-you-the-most/816246/192 "2018-06-21T22:59:41Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > Makes one wonder if you do keep up with the news. “Built” implies that they were used before for the same reasons or at the same levels. > > [7 Myths About Family Separation At The Border, Debunked](https://www.bustle.com/p/7-myths-about-family-separation-at-the-border-debunked-9510303) “built” (well “building” anyways) was the word chosen by **Evil Economist**. As for your quote, (“Prior to the Trump administration, there was no policy requiring all illegal entry cases to be criminally prosecuted, thus causing the separation of all families caught crossing the border.”) the two uses of the word “all” there seem … conspicuous. I assume it means that the Obama administration separated families as well, but at a lower rate than the Trump administration. Is that a correct understanding? ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2018, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-era-whats-surprised-you-the-most/816246/193 "2018-06-21T23:03:51Z")
> [@foolsguinea](#): > > Yes. > > Or rather, the national security establishment he oversaw had evil elements, and he let them do very bad things. And as the First Black President, he got a pass from too many of us. (I cut him a lot of slack too; I’m guilty of shrugging about the illegal war in Libya.) But between ICE and the drone war (or properly terrorism), I could see that there were a lot of key decision makers in Obama’s administration without conscience. > > Wrong is wrong even if your rival also does it. Especially when it’s really not something you’re doing to each other, but wrong done to third parties by the same machine you & your rival both headed. > > If the Irish mob murdered black prostitutes under a leader called Sean, and they still murdered black prostitutes under a leader called Shem, neither Sean nor Shem could excuse this continued behavior by pointing to the other. This was refreshing to read. Thank you. I think your broad point (“Wrong is wrong even if your rival also does it”) is a good one to keep in mind. I tend to revert to “but Obama did it too” arguments because all the threads on this topic seem to have recurring claims of how extra-special super-duper evil Trump and Trump alone is for having done this (where “this” = separating families in detention centers). The obvious retort is that he’s not the only one who has done it. If someone wants to have a discussion about what an appropriate and humane immigration policy should look like, I’d be up for it, but it seems that most posters just want to reiterate how extra-special super-duper evil they think Trump and Trump alone is. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Economist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2018, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-era-whats-surprised-you-the-most/816246/194 "2018-06-21T23:29:47Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > “built” (well “building” anyways) was the word chosen by **Evil Economist**. > > As for your quote, (“Prior to the Trump administration, there was no policy requiring all illegal entry cases to be criminally prosecuted, thus causing the separation of all families caught crossing the border.”) the two uses of the word “all” there seem … conspicuous. I assume it means that the Obama administration separated families as well, but at a lower rate than the Trump administration. Is that a correct understanding? Perhaps you could simply list for us the evil acts which you are prepared to ignore if someone else may have also committed them in the past, and then we can check for ourselves if operating concentration camps for infants is on the list? Also, it would be helpful if you could indicate how big a part political persuasion plays in your decision? E.g. Roy Moore–child abuser but Republican, so don’t worry about it? ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2018, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-era-whats-surprised-you-the-most/816246/195 "2018-06-21T23:34:08Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > My understanding was that many / most of the “concentration camps for infants” were built during President Obama’s administration, That doesn’t matter. Trump is President so he is responsible. The buck stops with him. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Economist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2018, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-era-whats-surprised-you-the-most/816246/196 "2018-06-21T23:37:16Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > I tend to revert to “but Obama did it too” arguments because… I suspect you are aware of how weak people find those arguments, and resort to them only when you have no credible defense. In fact, I would think the “but XXX did it too…” argument falls below the “he did it and I know it’s wrong” threshold. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2018, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-era-whats-surprised-you-the-most/816246/197 "2018-06-21T23:37:20Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > “built” (well “building” anyways) was the word chosen by **Evil Economist**. And you choose to jump off the bridge if someone else tells you. > [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > As for your quote, (“Prior to the Trump administration, there was no policy requiring all illegal entry cases to be criminally prosecuted, thus causing the separation of all families caught crossing the border.”) the two uses of the word “all” there seem … conspicuous. I assume it means that the Obama administration separated families as well, but at a lower rate than the Trump administration. Is that a correct understanding? Yes, because there were people that were suspected of smuggling, happens also in Democratic administrations you know. But as I pointed before, for guys like Trump and his supporters children are awesome, except if they are of refugees or asylum seekers. ---
**Author:** ![Silver\_lining](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aca169/32.png) [@Silver\_lining](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Silver_lining)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2018, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-era-whats-surprised-you-the-most/816246/198 "2018-06-22T00:50:25Z")
I would have to say his accomplishments in less than two years time. Tax cuts for corporations and private citizens A booming economy with historic low unemployment, thanks in part to deregulation and tax cuts. A successfully nominated Supreme Court Justice A historic peace meeting face to face with Kim Jong-un where both leaders signed a document to work towards de-nucelarization. Illegal immigration down over 50% since he took office > [@BobLibDem](#): > > This list is disingenuous at best. > > 1- The corporations did not need the tax cuts and indeed most said they would not use them to invest in their business. The only private citizens the made out are the elite ruling class, the working class got very little. > > 2- The economy was essentially an extension of the Obama recover, thanks in no way to deregulation and tax cuts. So now polluters can poison us all and make more money while doing it. Good show! > > 3- The Gorsuch seat was stolen > > 4- The US got nothing from the meeting, Kim got a big jump in his presence in the world while making vague promises that he has no intention of keeping. The US gave away some of the defense readiness of South Korea for a pocket full of mumbles, such are promises. > > 5- “Illegal” immigration is about where it was for the past several years, 2017 was an outlier. Not a fan I see. Yet he did accomplish ALL of the above. 1 ) yes they did, why have the 2nd highest tax rate in the world 2 ) BS, tax cuts and de-regulation, combined with enthusiasm are Trump’s mark on the economy. And his economy did not need billions of dollars spent in a stimulus 3 ) Stolen seat? Hilarious. 4 ) How do you know how it’s going to play out? This is not Iran, we didn’t offer them a lot of cash and free up billions 5 ) The numbers are way down. Not by accident. ---
**Author:** ![Silver\_lining](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aca169/32.png) [@Silver\_lining](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Silver_lining)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2018, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-era-whats-surprised-you-the-most/816246/199 "2018-06-22T00:51:29Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > LOL! You’ve just vaporized your own claims to “facts”. Yes Iiandyiiifi did exactly that. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Economist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2018, 1:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-era-whats-surprised-you-the-most/816246/200 "2018-06-22T01:07:31Z")
> [@Silver\_lining](#): > > Tax cuts for corporations and private citizens. Those tax changes are going to balloon the federal debt by over 2 trillion dollars, increase the debt ratio, and possibly lead to inflation and recession. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-era-whats-surprised-you-the-most/816246.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-era-whats-surprised-you-the-most/816246.md?page=11)