# The Trump era - what's surprised you the most? **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [June 17, 2018, 3:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-era-whats-surprised-you-the-most/816246 "2018-06-17T03:38:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2018, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-era-whats-surprised-you-the-most/816246/81 "2018-06-19T00:01:49Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > You do not understand liberals or liberalism. What you know is what conservatives believe is the truth about liberalism not what liberals themselves believe. Just where do you imagine my view of liberalism comes from? > [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Think about this: do you feel that the liberals on this board have an accurate view of who conservatives are and what conservatism is? My guess is your answer is no. Your guess is correct, at least for quite a few of them (the liberals on this board). > [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > So now you have to think about the harder question: is the conservative view on liberalism just as distorted as the liberal view on conservatism? If you’re honest, you have to consider it’s possible. You’re conflating two different things here. One is MY view on liberalism and the other is “the conservative view on liberalism”. They are not (necessarily) the same thing. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2018, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-era-whats-surprised-you-the-most/816246/82 "2018-06-19T01:21:55Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Just where do you imagine my view of liberalism comes from? I don’t know. But from your statements, it’s clear that your views on liberalism on very inaccurate. And your inaccurate view is a very negative one. So I’m assumed it was from some conservative source like Breitbart, Matt Drudge, Glenn Beck, Anne Coulter, Rush Limbaugh, or Michelle Malkin who present a negative and inaccurate view of liberalism. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2018, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-era-whats-surprised-you-the-most/816246/83 "2018-06-19T01:50:13Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > I don’t know. But from your statements, it’s clear that your views on liberalism on very inaccurate. And your inaccurate view is a very negative one. So I’m assumed it was from some conservative source like Breitbart, Matt Drudge, Glenn Beck, Anne Coulter, Rush Limbaugh, or Michelle Malkin who present a negative and inaccurate view of liberalism. I wonder if you remember this exchange we had a while back: > [@February jobs report](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/february-jobs-report/810310/13): > > You really are completely clueless about what people think outside of your conservative bubble, aren’t you? > > Non-conservatives, even liberals, love America just as much as conservatives do. Our opposition to Trump isn’t based on some childish whim. It’s based on our belief, supported by ongoing evidence, that he is harming America. We oppose Trump because we love America. > [@February jobs report](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/february-jobs-report/810310/15): > > :rolleyes: > [@February jobs report](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/february-jobs-report/810310/22): > > What does your emoji mean here? Are you standing by your belief that liberals hate America and you’re skeptical of my claim to the contrary? > [@February jobs report](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/february-jobs-report/810310/23): > > The eyeroll was directed at “your conservative bubble”. It strikes me as a particularly stupid charge to level against anyone who regularly posts on the SDMB. > [@February jobs report](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/february-jobs-report/810310/24): > > Your post is my cite. If you were listening to what other people here were saying, you wouldn’t have cause to write things like “I suspect with dismay by more than a few Dopers”. > > But you wrote that. So it appears you just come here to repeat things you heard on right wing sites and don’t bother paying attention to what anyone else says. And that means I’m standing by “your conservative bubble” until you show some signs it isn’t accurate. > [@February jobs report](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/february-jobs-report/810310/40): > > > [@February jobs report](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/february-jobs-report/810310/13): > > > > … Non-conservatives, even liberals, love America just as much as conservatives do. … > > BTW, this is false (at least according to [a 2015 YouGov poll](https://today.yougov.com/news/2015/02/24/obama-patriotism/)): > > > [@](#): > > > > Broken down along ideological lines, liberals (13%) are more likely than either moderates (5%) or conservatives (4%) to say that they do not love America. 90% of conservatives say that they love America, compared to 85% of moderates and 82% of liberals. After reviewing that conversation, and the cite I provided within, would you say that your view of liberals (that they “love America just as much as conservatives do”) is more accurate or less accurate than my view of liberals (that conservatives have a slight edge on them in the “love America” department)? ---
**Author:** ![JKellyMap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jkellymap/32/15880_2.png) [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2018, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-era-whats-surprised-you-the-most/816246/84 "2018-06-19T02:04:35Z")
HD, what is “love”? Indeed, what is “America”? (Mountains and plains? 300 million people? An idea? Everything ever done in the name of the US government?). Impossible to quantify. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2018, 2:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-era-whats-surprised-you-the-most/816246/85 "2018-06-19T02:08:05Z")
> [@JKellyMap](#): > > HD, what is “love”? Indeed, what is “America”? (Mountains and plains? 300 million people? An idea? Everything ever done in the name of the US government?). Impossible to quantify. And yet, despite this impossibility, [91% of the 998 respondents](http://cdn.yougov.com/cumulus_uploads/document/sr9c4ms39p/tabs_OPI_obama_patriotism_20150223.pdf) found a way to see themselves through to providing an answer to the question. Simply amazing! ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2018, 2:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-era-whats-surprised-you-the-most/816246/86 "2018-06-19T02:08:33Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > I wonder if you remember this exchange we had a while back: > > After reviewing that conversation, and the cite I provided within, would you say that your view of liberals (that they “love America just as much as conservatives do”) is more accurate or less accurate than my view of liberals (that conservatives have a slight edge on them in the “love America” department)? As other posters noted in that thread, your conclusion is silly. > [@February jobs report](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/february-jobs-report/810310/62): > > Here we go again. > > **Why I Love America** by _Ann Hedonia_ > > “We hold these truths to be sacred and undeniable; that all men are created equal and independent, that from that equal creation they derive rights inherent and inalienable, among which are the preservation of life liberty and the pursuit of happiness.” > > Those were some radical sentiments for their time. The founders of our country came out of a time where it was believed that your place in society and the world was the divine manifestation of God’s will and plan and it was not your place to try and change it. It was believed that your husband, your king, the lord of your manor was inherently better than you and that this hierarchy needed to be accepted. The idea of pursuit of happiness was also radical - the prevailing idea was that your life was the property of your king and your God. Personal happiness had no place in the equation. > > But our forefathers changed that. Our country was built on an idea, not a race, religion or ethnicity. > > The Declaration of Independence is more aspiration than declaration. It took us ,as a country, time to implement this idea. And it’s a continuing process. > > We fought a war over slavery, and our ideals triumphed over race, culture and heritage. > > It was still a slow process, but we continued > > We changed the country’s attitude towards war. We fought against the mass slaughter of unwilling soldiers in Vietnam. We still have war, but this country no longer has tolerance for the kind of casualties we saw in Vietnam. And all military service is now elective. > > We also took part in eliminating the legalized racism that ran directly counter to the Declaration of Independence and hampered so many of our citizens in their pursuit of happiness. > > We took further steps towards achieving these ideals by making marriage legally available to all couples. > > We still aren’t there yet. But we’re getting there. And I’m proud to be part of it. > > Because asking people how much they love their country is like asking men how much they love their wives. It’s, at best, a meaningless question because what counts is not how much you profess to love, but how you express that love. > > And frankly, a lot of “patriots” are like the guys that love their wives so much that they would rather kill them then see them with another man. They embrace anti-governmental hierarchical ideals that run directly counter to the vision set forth in the Declaration of Independence. These “patriots” are exactly like the guys that project a fantasy image onto an exceptional but not perfect (because she’s real) woman and then kill her because she doesn’t live up to their fantasy. > > Yes, I love my country. I love my country the way a parent loves their child. A good loving parent doesn’t insist that their child can do no wrong. A good loving parent doesn’t believe her child if he tells her that everyone in the school system and police department is out to get them. A good and loving parent doesn’t try to make her child’s misbehavior a societal norm > > Like a good parent, I have a vision of what ai want my country to be in 10 years, 20 years, 50 years. That vision is laid out in our founding documents. And I want to help guide my country towards achieving that vision in whatever small way I can. > > Because I love my country > > (_parts of this post have appeared in other posts,because I’m tired of writing the same thing over and over from scratch_) ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2018, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-era-whats-surprised-you-the-most/816246/87 "2018-06-19T02:11:37Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > As other posters noted in that thread, your conclusion is silly. My conclusion is based on a scientific poll. Does that count as “silly” around here now? ETA: the point here isn’t to restart the debate about who loves their country more. As I said in that thread, and I’ll re-iterate here: “most everyone on both sides of the aisle loves America, and people on both sides are well-meaning and sincere even if they define things like patriotism and love of country a bit differently sometimes.” That’s not the point. I stand accused of having “very inaccurate” views on liberalism. This scurrilous charge has sullied my otherwise-sterling reputation, and I intend to defend myself from it. As one data point, I provide a recounting of one time where my views of liberalism proved more accurate than my accuser’s. ---
**Author:** ![Merneith](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/57b2e6/32.png) [@Merneith](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merneith)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2018, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-era-whats-surprised-you-the-most/816246/88 "2018-06-19T02:27:12Z")
I’m surprised that anyone is talking about Trump’s being a patsy for Vladimir Putin. I knew about it before the election, and if I knew about, I’m shocked that everybody didn’t know about it. I didn’t think anyone cared. Mind you - I’m still waiting for someone to do something about it. But I’m amazed that it’s even mentioned on the news or that we have a Special Prosecutor. That the Republicans have gone Full Donald doesn’t surprise me in the slightest. ---
**Author:** ![China\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/779978/32.png) [@China\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/China_Guy)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2018, 3:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-era-whats-surprised-you-the-most/816246/89 "2018-06-19T03:17:29Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > nevermind, that was unnecessarily harsh. No worries. BTW, The Great Waldo Pepper pointed out I was probably [thinking of DeNiro](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sAXIinDdfWg) in Midnight Run. So, I got two words for you “supply side economics” 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2018, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-era-whats-surprised-you-the-most/816246/90 "2018-06-19T03:21:04Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > After reviewing that conversation, and the cite I provided within, would you say that your view of liberals (that they “love America just as much as conservatives do”) is more accurate or less accurate than my view of liberals (that conservatives have a slight edge on them in the “love America” department)? Yes, I definitely think my view of liberals is more accurate than yours. After rereading that previous exchange, I see myself making the same points I made in this thread. And you dismissing the possibility, as you seem to be doing in this thread. ---
**Author:** ![nearwildheaven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/90db22/32.png) [@nearwildheaven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nearwildheaven)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2018, 3:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-era-whats-surprised-you-the-most/816246/91 "2018-06-19T03:29:52Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > That it happened at all. And has lasted this long. ☹ ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2018, 3:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-era-whats-surprised-you-the-most/816246/92 "2018-06-19T03:41:46Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > My conclusion is based on a scientific poll. Does that count as “silly” around here now? The poll is ok, your conclusion about it is the silly one. I will have to notice that you had absolutely **no reply** to what **Ann Hedonia** posted there, so her points and mine stands. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2018, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-era-whats-surprised-you-the-most/816246/93 "2018-06-19T03:50:04Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > The poll is ok, your conclusion about it is the silly one. I will have to notice that you had absolutely **no reply** to what **Ann Hedonia** posted there, so her points and mine stands. What was there to reply to? I never claimed that Ann Hedonia doesn’t love America, so neither her post nor yours are a refutation of anything I’ve claimed. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2018, 4:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-era-whats-surprised-you-the-most/816246/94 "2018-06-19T04:00:00Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > What was there to reply to? I never claimed that Ann Hedonia doesn’t love America, so neither her post nor yours are a refutation of anything I’ve claimed. Your reply shows that indeed, Liberals do love America. And the logic is simple: They love it so much that they are willing to sincerely point out at their flaws and do efforts to make it better. Republicans, like ones supporting very sorry Trump policies like the separation of families and their kids from Asylum seekers, are not really loving it. They like to keep the bad if their propaganda tells them to keep it. [http://thehill.com/homenews/administration/392802-poll-majority-of-republicans-back-family-separation-policy](http://thehill.com/homenews/administration/392802-poll-majority-of-republicans-back-family-separation-policy) QED. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2018, 4:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-era-whats-surprised-you-the-most/816246/95 "2018-06-19T04:23:16Z")
**The Trump era - what’s surprised you the most? Trump wants a US space force** OK, I’m not surprised that he wants it, because he’s a mad old man. If he _gets_ it, I’ll be surprised. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2018, 4:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-era-whats-surprised-you-the-most/816246/96 "2018-06-19T04:39:47Z")
If Donald Trump were smart, he would view the Russia investigation as not simply a threat, but an opportunity. If the polls show Republicans losing control of congress, it wouldn’t surprise me at all to see Trump actually play up Russian election interference. Hell, I could see them even asking Russia to interfere, to give them an excuse to do the extraordinary, and to give them an excuse to claim that the elections that they lost were ‘rigged’. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2018, 5:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-era-whats-surprised-you-the-most/816246/97 "2018-06-19T05:15:14Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > Your reply shows that indeed, Liberals do love America. And the logic is simple: They love it so much that they are willing to sincerely point out at their flaws and do efforts to make it better. > > Republicans, like ones supporting very sorry Trump policies like the separation of families and their kids from Asylum seekers, are not really loving it. They like to keep the bad if their propaganda tells them to keep it. > > [http://thehill.com/homenews/administration/392802-poll-majority-of-republicans-back-family-separation-policy](http://thehill.com/homenews/administration/392802-poll-majority-of-republicans-back-family-separation-policy) > > QED. Just to recap, again, because you seem confused here: I never claimed anything like “no liberals love America”, or anything resembling that, or whatever you appear to think you’re refuting. Yes, I know some liberals love America. In fact, a lot of liberals do (82% according to the 2015 YouGov poll). That’s just not quite as high as the 90% of conservatives that do. Do you understand now? Furthermore, do you understand that the point of reciting my earlier exchange with **Little Nemo** was to point out to him and any other interested readers that his views on liberals are less accurate than my own? ---
**Author:** ![China\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/779978/32.png) [@China\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/China_Guy)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2018, 5:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-era-whats-surprised-you-the-most/816246/98 "2018-06-19T05:17:07Z")
HurricaneDitka - why do you hate America? ---
**Author:** ![Channing\_Idaho\_Banks](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/channing_idaho_banks/32/250_2.png) [@Channing\_Idaho\_Banks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Channing_Idaho_Banks)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2018, 5:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-era-whats-surprised-you-the-most/816246/99 "2018-06-19T05:27:05Z")
My own father still supports Trumps’ policies. I don’t think he even knows what his policies are. That’s the most surprising thing to me. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2018, 5:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-era-whats-surprised-you-the-most/816246/100 "2018-06-19T05:36:18Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Just to recap, again, because you seem confused here: I never claimed anything like “no liberals love America”, or anything resembling that, or whatever you appear to think you’re refuting. Full stop there because you are the one that is confused, because I did not reply to you thinking that I think that you said that. It has to be noted that once again you can not reply defending what many Republicans that claim to love America are supporting now. They love America in just a very superficial way. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-era-whats-surprised-you-the-most/816246.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-era-whats-surprised-you-the-most/816246.md?page=6)