# The Trump Impeachment Inquiry **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [September 24, 2019, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771 "2019-09-24T20:23:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 131
**Author:** ![jshore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b5e925/32.png) [@jshore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jshore)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2019, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771/2601 "2019-10-12T01:27:16Z")
> [@MulderMuffin](#): > > Trump says acting Homeland Security Secretary McAleenan is stepping down > [Trump says acting Homeland Security Secretary McAleenan is stepping down](https://news.yahoo.com/trump-says-acting-homeland-security-235452580.html) > > How many is that, now? Isn’t he the guy who was in the [Sharpiegate video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HXkCZUAv_1A)? I always thought he had a look on his face like, “Man, I’m not being paid nearly enough to do this sort of shit” in that video. ---
**Author:** ![I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/i_love_me_vol.i/32/521_2.png) [@I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/I_Love_Me_Vol.I)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2019, 1:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771/2602 "2019-10-12T01:46:27Z")
Is it Pence yet? ---
**Author:** ![Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b487fb/32.png) [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walken_After_Midnight)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2019, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771/2603 "2019-10-12T01:52:19Z")
[Amy Fiscus](https://twitter.com/amyfiscus/status/1182834487526350853), NYTimes: > [@](#): > > NEW: Rudy Giuliani is under investigation over whether he broke foreign lobbying laws in his work with Ukraine ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2019, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771/2604 "2019-10-12T02:26:47Z")
Remember the scene in Hunt for Red October where the Soviet ambassador is chided for losing another submarine? I keep thinking about that each time a Trump confident ends up in criminal investigations. “Are you serious? Another one?” ---
**Author:** ![I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/i_love_me_vol.i/32/521_2.png) [@I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/I_Love_Me_Vol.I)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2019, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771/2605 "2019-10-12T02:26:59Z")
> [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](#): > > [Amy Fiscus](https://twitter.com/amyfiscus/status/1182834487526350853), NYTimes: > > > [@](#): > > > > NEW: Rudy Giuliani is under investigation over whether he broke foreign lobbying laws in his work with Ukraine The article linked above says: > [@](#): > > **Federal prosecutors** in Manhattan are investigating whether President Trump’s personal lawyer Rudolph W. Giuliani broke lobbying laws in his dealings in Ukraine, according to two people familiar with the inquiry. [Bolding mine] Don’t those prosecutors work in the DOJ under Barr? How and why were they “allowed”\* to do this? I should understand this but I don’t. \*It wouldn’t be a question during normal times of Law and Order but Bob-Barr-the-Door frowns on investigations related to his buddy Don ---
**Author:** ![MulderMuffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muldermuffin/32/2862_2.png) [@MulderMuffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MulderMuffin)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2019, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771/2606 "2019-10-12T02:37:03Z")
> [@I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](#): > > The article linked above says:[Bolding mine] > > Don’t those prosecutors work in the DOJ under Barr? How and why were they “allowed”\* to do this? I should understand this but I don’t. > > \*It wouldn’t be a question during normal times of Law and Order but Bob-Barr-the-Door frowns on investigations related to his buddy Don My first gut reaction is that they’re maybe trying to go with the “it was all Rudy, he went rogue” defense. We’ve all been waiting at the bus stop to see when he’d be thrown under… ---
**Author:** ![Aspenglow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aspenglow/32/76_2.png) [@Aspenglow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aspenglow)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2019, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771/2607 "2019-10-12T02:41:44Z")
> [@I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](#): > > \ > > Don’t those prosecutors work in the DOJ under Barr? How and why were they “allowed”\* to do this? I should understand this but I don’t. US Attorneys such as Geoffrey Berman (a Trump appointee, it should be noted) work basically independent of the Attorney General. As much as Barr may want to stifle investigations, he would be breaking the law himself to actively interfere in the lawful prosecution of a criminal for whom there is probable cause to arrest as determined by a grand jury. Barr is already damaged and questionable due to his willingness to misrepresent Robert Mueller’s findings/report. IOW, he’s skating on thin ice as it is. He may not be willing to skate so far as to commit an obvious crime. Attorneys General can go to jail, too – and have. > [@I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](#): > > \*It wouldn’t be a question during normal times of Law and Order but Bob-Barr-the-Door frowns on investigations related to his buddy Don He does, but not for nothing is the Southern District of New York known and referred to as the Sovereign District of New York. They pride themselves on their independence. I was leery of Berman when he was first appointed to replace Preet Bahrara. I felt mildly better when Berman recused himself from overseeing the Michael Cohen investigation. He seems committed to preserving the integrity of SDNY. I do hope that is the case. ---
**Author:** ![KidCharlemagne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed8c4c/32.png) [@KidCharlemagne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KidCharlemagne)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2019, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771/2608 "2019-10-12T03:11:43Z")
> [@Aspenglow](#): > > US Attorneys such as Geoffrey Berman (a Trump appointee, it should be noted) work basically independent of the Attorney General. As much as Barr may want to stifle investigations, he would be breaking the law himself to actively interfere in the lawful prosecution of a criminal for whom there is probable cause to arrest as determined by a grand jury. Barr is already damaged and questionable due to his willingness to misrepresent Robert Mueller’s findings/report. IOW, he’s skating on thin ice as it is. He may not be willing to skate so far as to commit an obvious crime. Attorneys General can go to jail, too – and have. > > He does, but not for nothing is the Southern District of New York known and referred to as the Sovereign District of New York. They pride themselves on their independence. I was leery of Berman when he was first appointed to replace Preet Bahrara. I felt mildly better when Berman recused himself from overseeing the Michael Cohen investigation. He seems committed to preserving the integrity of SDNY. I do hope that is the case. I always hear this about the SDNY, but is there any special mandate that gives them some degree of freedom from Washington? Sure they’re in charge of Wall St and NYC, but that just means they have a bigger staff and budget, right? Is it just a soft power from NYC connections? ---
**Author:** ![Aspenglow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aspenglow/32/76_2.png) [@Aspenglow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aspenglow)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2019, 3:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771/2609 "2019-10-12T03:31:05Z")
> [@KidCharlemagne](#): > > I always hear this about the SDNY, but is there any special mandate that gives them some degree of freedom from Washington? Sure they’re in charge of Wall St and NYC, but that just means they have a bigger staff and budget, right? Is it just a soft power from NYC connections? No specific mandate of which I’m aware. To my understanding, within the DOJ the SDNY is considered the most prestigious of all the US Attorneys’ offices in the country. Merely through an accident of geography, they handle highly visible, high risk/benefit cases. They’re tough – because they have to be. As such, they have more autonomy than some of the other offices, perhaps. As I understand it, it’s a culture and reputation thing. They guard their independence fiercely. IANAL and I have no first hand knowledge of this beyond being an avid watcher of matters legal. I think there are some Dopers who have more first-hand knowledge of the reasons underlying for their reputation. Perhaps they’ll speak up. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2019, 3:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771/2610 "2019-10-12T03:52:31Z")
…Talia Lavin, former fact-checker with the New York Times (that nobody has really heard of but is hated and targeted often by the alt-right) apparently got hold of Rudy’s cellphone number and has been prank-texting him. The responses (if true of course, the way the world is going right now I can barely trust anyone or anything anymore, but she insists the responses are true) are not what one would expect from the Presidents Lawyer. > These guys are really not smart. When Michelle Obama said “I have been at G-summits, I have sat in at the UN; they are not that smart” she wasn’t joking. ---
**Author:** ![Defensive\_Indifference](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/defensive_indifference/32/6502_2.png) [@Defensive\_Indifference](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Defensive_Indifference)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2019, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771/2611 "2019-10-12T03:59:08Z")
I follow her on Twitter, but I missed that! ---
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2019, 4:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771/2612 "2019-10-12T04:23:17Z")
> [@Aspenglow](#): > > US Attorneys such as Geoffrey Berman (a Trump appointee, it should be noted) work basically independent of the Attorney General. As much as Barr may want to stifle investigations, he would be breaking the law himself to actively interfere in the lawful prosecution of a criminal for whom there is probable cause to arrest as determined by a grand jury. Barr is already damaged and questionable due to his willingness to misrepresent Robert Mueller’s findings/report. IOW, he’s skating on thin ice as it is. He may not be willing to skate so far as to commit an obvious crime. Attorneys General can go to jail, too – and have. A few months ago, I listed to Rachel Maddow’s podcast series, “Bag Man,” about Spiro Agnew, and the investigation that led to his resignation as Vice-President. The U.S. Attorney for the Maryland District in that era, George Beall, and his office, had been investigating corruption among public officials in Baltimore, and discovered that Agnew (who had, before becoming VP, been a county executive in Baltimore, and then the governor of Maryland) had been taking payoffs. When Agnew learned that he was a target of Beall’s office’s investigation, the White House had attempted to force Beall to stop the investigation – this included asking Beall’s brother, J. Glen Beall (then a senator from Maryland) to intervene on Agnew’s behalf, as well as sending George H.W. Bush (then the GOP Chairman) to ask Beall to stop. Beall refused to stop, and his office was able to secure a “no contest” plea from Agnew, and force his resignation as VP. ---
**Author:** ![wguy123](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wguy123/32/3161_2.png) [@wguy123](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wguy123)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2019, 4:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771/2613 "2019-10-12T04:27:14Z")
White House sends Ukraine talking points to Democrats. Again. Dumbshits gonna dumbshit. > **[White House accidentally sends Ukraine talking points to Democrats again](https://thehill.com/homenews/house/465457-white-house-accidentally-sends-ukraine-talking-points-to-democrats-again/)** > > The White House accidentally sent Democrats a list of talking points related to ex-Ukraine Ambassador Marie Yovanovitch’s Friday House deposition, two sources with knowledge of the email told The H… ---
**Author:** ![squeegee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/squeegee/32/14537_2.png) [@squeegee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/squeegee)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2019, 4:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771/2614 "2019-10-12T04:50:20Z")
> [@wguy123](#): > > White House sends Ukraine talking points to Democrats. Again. Dumbshits gonna dumbshit. > > [https://thehill.com/homenews/house/465457-white-house-accidentally-sends-ukraine-talking-points-to-democrats-again](https://thehill.com/homenews/house/465457-white-house-accidentally-sends-ukraine-talking-points-to-democrats-again) Not really seeming like an accident at this point. Disgruntled staff. ---
**Author:** ![I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/i_love_me_vol.i/32/521_2.png) [@I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/I_Love_Me_Vol.I)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2019, 5:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771/2615 "2019-10-12T05:30:31Z")
> [@wguy123](#): > > White House sends Ukraine talking points to Democrats. Again. Dumbshits gonna dumbshit. > > [https://thehill.com/homenews/house/465457-white-house-accidentally-sends-ukraine-talking-points-to-democrats-again](https://thehill.com/homenews/house/465457-white-house-accidentally-sends-ukraine-talking-points-to-democrats-again) Yeaaaah… if I was a general directing a war against even a very stupid enemy, I would be very suspicious if the enemy’s Order of Battle fell out of the blue sky right into my hands not once, but twice. PsyOps, dudes. Counter-Intelligence. …and stuff. ---
**Author:** ![OttoDaFe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ottodafe/32/356_2.png) [@OttoDaFe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OttoDaFe)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2019, 7:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771/2616 "2019-10-12T07:35:24Z")
Neal Katyal (Acting Solicitor General under Obama) was on Maddow this evening. After listing some of the recent legal and political setbacks for the malAdministration, he continued thus: > [@](#): > > Altogether you’ve got a lot of phenomena, all against the President, and I think it suggests, really, you know, what that great legal scholar Twisted Sister said, “We’re not gonna take it anymore.” After I picked myself up off the floor I realized this may be a major factor in the surge of support for impeachment and removal. And barring some major upheaval, it’s only going to get worse. ---
**Author:** ![ThelmaLou](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thelmalou/32/390_2.png) [@ThelmaLou](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ThelmaLou)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2019, 1:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771/2617 "2019-10-12T13:35:20Z")
Could it be? Some good news? **[The Conspiracy of Silence Is Cracking](https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2019/10/limits-trumps-obstruction/599869/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+TheAtlantic+%28The+Atlantic+-+Master+Feed%29)** > [@](#): > > What if the White House threw an obstruction party and no one came? Or perhaps more accurately, what if the White House threw an obstruction party and people came anyway? > … > > Earlier this week, White House Counsel Pat Cipollone sent a lengthy rant to House Democrats, announcing that the administration would refuse to cooperate with the impeachment inquiry into President Donald Trump. The letter rested largely on political, rather than legal, arguments, but Cipollone also invoked executive privilege to justify preventing executive-branch employees from testifying. It looked a lot like a declaration of constitutional crisis. > > As the week closes, however, something strange has happened. The White House hasn’t changed its stance, but witnesses employed by the executive branch are coming to testify to House committees anyway. On Friday, Marie Yovanovitch, the former ambassador to Ukraine who was recalled earlier this year, is giving a transcribed interview behind closed doors over State Department objections. Also on Friday, Gordon Sondland, Trump’s ambassador to the European Union, signaled he would testify as well. > > Suddenly the obstruction letter is looking a bit more like a Maginot letter: imposing in theory, impotent in practice. One of the leading narratives of the last three years has been that the guardrails thought to constrain the White House are not enforceable on a president with no shame. Yovanovitch and Sondland are illustrating a corollary: Trump’s insistence that his subordinates answer only to him is also unenforceable. A conspiracy of silence works only if people want to conspire. > … ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2019, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771/2618 "2019-10-12T14:00:56Z")
> [@ThelmaLou](#): > > Could it be? Some good news? > > **[The Conspiracy of Silence Is Cracking](https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2019/10/limits-trumps-obstruction/599869/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+TheAtlantic+%28The+Atlantic+-+Master+Feed%29)** I’m wondering whether, and please don’t think I’m Nazifying the thread, there’ll be consideration of the “I’m just following orders” defense. Trump is telling his subordinates they’re not allowed to talk with Congress. But it looks like this order may itself be illegal. If subordinates follow his order, and thereby defy a legally-issued subpoena from Congress, will they say they were just following orders? Will they be punished anyway? ---
**Author:** ![ThelmaLou](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thelmalou/32/390_2.png) [@ThelmaLou](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ThelmaLou)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2019, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771/2619 "2019-10-12T14:13:43Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > I’m wondering whether, and please don’t think I’m Nazifying the thread, there’ll be consideration of the “I’m just following orders” defense. > > Trump is telling his subordinates they’re not allowed to talk with Congress. But it looks like this order may itself be illegal. If subordinates follow his order, and thereby defy a legally-issued subpoena from Congress, will they say they were just following orders? Will they be punished anyway? IANAL but it seems to me that a subpoena trumps (as it were) an “order” from your boss, even if that boss is, well, you know… ---
**Author:** ![Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b487fb/32.png) [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walken_After_Midnight)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2019, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771/2620 "2019-10-13T01:13:59Z")
_Washington Post_, via [Kyle Griffin](https://twitter.com/kylegriffin1/status/1183184330916618240), MSNBC: > [@](#): > > Breaking via WaPo: Gordon Sondland intends to tell Congress that the text he wrote denying a quid pro quo with Ukraine was relayed to him directly by Trump in a call. Sondland plans to say he has no knowledge of whether Trump was telling him the truth. > … > “It’s only true that the president said it, not that it was the truth,” the person familiar with Gordon Sondland’s planned testimony tells WaPo. > … > Gordon Sondland is expected to say that for months before the Sept. 9 message, he worked at the direction of Rudy Giuliani to secure what he would call in another text message the “deliverable” sought by Trump: a public statement from Ukraine that it would investigate corruption. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771.md?page=130) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771.md?page=132)