# The Trump Impeachment Inquiry **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [September 24, 2019, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771 "2019-09-24T20:23:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 143
**Author:** ![Intergalactic\_Gladiator](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/intergalactic_gladiator/32/112_2.png) [@Intergalactic\_Gladiator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Intergalactic_Gladiator)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2019, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771/2841 "2019-10-16T20:01:59Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > But don’t we have a long history of abandoning the Kurds in order to appease our allies? Kurds aren’t going to be staying at Trump Hotels, ya know. ---
**Author:** ![Fiddle\_Peghead](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fiddle_peghead/32/3506_2.png) [@Fiddle\_Peghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiddle_Peghead)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2019, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771/2842 "2019-10-16T20:32:19Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > I’ve already told you that there are a number of ways, aside from the $391M, that the US was assisting Ukraine, and I don’t see any reason to conclude that some generalized “we do a lot for Ukraine” and “the United States has been very very good to Ukraine” language is specifically referencing that $391M in aid money. Aside from the $391M, just off the top of my head, the USA has: > > - imposed sanctions > - condemned the Russian annexation of Crimea and the quasi-invasion of eastern Ukraine > - sold Javelin missiles to Ukraine > - provided loan guarantees (Biden’s infamous $1B, among others) I see these points as suggestive of the possibility that Trump wasn’t talking about the $391M. Money is the language Trump knows best, and he is not known for subtlety. We have seen what Trump will say in public. Is it that far a stretch to suggest that Trump would have been much more clear in this case, on a private call? I am always wary of trying to read minds of politicians, unlike every Tom, Dick, and Harry pundit on FOX, CNN, MSNBC, and the like. So I am not saying I think Trump definitely was not talking about the cash. Maybe he was, but I don’t think it’s a forgone conclusion. But in either case, it is using his office for personal gain, and that is really the issue for me. ---
**Author:** ![Fiddle\_Peghead](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fiddle_peghead/32/3506_2.png) [@Fiddle\_Peghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiddle_Peghead)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2019, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771/2843 "2019-10-16T20:39:53Z")
From the transcript: > [@](#): > > Well it is very nice of you to say that. I will say that we do a lot for Ukraine. We spend a lot of effort and a lot of time. Much more than the European countries are doing and they should be helping you more than they are. Germany does almost nothing for you. All they do is talk and I think it’s something that you should really ask them about. When I was speaking to Angela Merkel she talks Ukraine, but she ·doesn’t do anything. A lot of the European countries are the same way so I think it’s something you want to look at but the United States has been very very good to Ukraine. I wouldn’t say that it’s reciprocal necessarily because things are happening that are not good but the United States has been very very good to Ukraine. He could have even been a bit subtle, and said, “I will say that we do a lot for Ukraine. We spend a lot of effort and a lot of time, _and quite frankly, money_…” Something like this, for instance. That would clearly get his message across, and clearly be about the dough. ---
**Author:** ![Akaj](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/akaj/32/145_2.png) [@Akaj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Akaj)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2019, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771/2844 "2019-10-16T20:46:49Z")
> [@Fiddle\_Peghead](#): > > From the transcript:He could have even been a bit subtle, and said, “I will say that we do a lot for Ukraine. We spend a lot of effort and a lot of time, _and quite frankly, money_…” > > Something like this, for instance. That would clearly get his message across, and clearly be about the dough. Maybe this is why he thought the call was “perfect” – because he so subtly got his demands across without saying the word “money.” Such a clever devil, he. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2019, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771/2845 "2019-10-16T20:56:29Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > Do you deny the very simple fact that Trump was withholding aid to Ukraine… No, I think it’s pretty clear from the public record that the $391M was being withheld. > [@k9bfriender](#): > > … do you deny that he asked Ukraine for a favor, while withholding those funds? … No, again, I think the record is pretty clear that he asked the President for a favor: > [@President Trump](#): > > “I would like you to do us a favor though because our country has been through a lot and Ukraine knows a lot about it. I would like you to find out what happened with this whole situation with Ukraine, they say Crowdstrike… I guess you have one of your wealthy people… The server, they say Ukraine has it. There are a lot of things that went on, the whole situation. I think you’re surrounding yourself with some of the same people. I would like to have the Attorney General call you or your people and I would like you to get to the bottom of it. As you saw yesterday, that whole nonsense ended with a very poor performance by a man named Robert Mueller, an incompetent performance, but they say a lot of it started with Ukraine. Whatever you can do, it’s very important that you do it if that’s possible.” I think that second question leaves out an important bit of context, in that while it was indeed “while withholding those funds”, [Ukraine was reportedly unaware the funds were being deliberately withheld](https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/christopherm51/ukraine-unaware-aid-holdup-month-after-trump-call). > [@k9bfriender](#): > > … You seem to think that Ukraine didn’t notice that the money was not in their bank account, as that is the only way to make the claim that Ukraine would not have had very good reason to try to please Trump in any way they could in order to get access to these funds that they were already allocated and expecting to have recieved. I think they were unaware it was being withheld at the time of the call: > [@BuzzFeed](#): > > When Ukraine’s President Volodymyr Zelensky spoke with President Donald Trump in the now-infamous July 25 phone call, he believed $391 million worth of military aid was already on its way to Kiev, two Ukrainian officials and a US official told BuzzFeed News. > > The Ukrainian government didn’t know it was being held up in Washington by Trump, according to the two Ukrainian officials. Nearly a month after the call — which Zelensky has since described as “good” and Trump has called “perfect” — the Ukrainian government was left stumped when they received word that the aid had in fact been suspended. … But a broader point you touch on is, I think, accurate: Ukraine (just like most countries, perhaps even more than most countries) has a lot of reasons to want to stay in the good graces of the military and economic superpower that is the USA. Regardless of the status / knowledge of the specific $391M aid package, Ukraine was in fairly dire straights and rather desperate for assistance from Washington on a number of fronts. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2019, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771/2846 "2019-10-16T21:06:59Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > No, I think it’s pretty clear from the public record that the $391M was being withheld. > No, again, I think the record is pretty clear that he asked the President for a favor: Okay, then we are agreed that he was withholding funds in exchange for a favor. We just don’t agree whether or not that is something that is illegal? > [@](#): > > I think that second question leaves out an important bit of context, in that while it was indeed “while withholding those funds”, [Ukraine was reportedly unaware the funds were being deliberately withheld](https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/christopherm51/ukraine-unaware-aid-holdup-month-after-trump-call). Not sure what you are trying to get at here. Your cite even says that they knew that they didn’t have the money and were desperately scrambling to figure out why. Now, they didn’t know why they had not yet received the money that they had been told that they would be receiving, I’ll agree. Which is why I find Trump’s phone call even more damning. If someone agrees to pay you money for something, and the time for that money to have been paid comes and goes, and your bank account is still empty, then they call you up and ask you for a favor, would you think that that favor would have anything to do with that money that you have been expecting? > [@](#): > > I think they were unaware it was being withheld at the time of the call: They may not have known why, but they certainly knew it was. IMHO, the reason for the phone call was to give them the reason why. > [@](#): > > But a broader point you touch on is, I think, accurate: Ukraine (just like most countries, perhaps even more than most countries) has a lot of reasons to want to stay in the good graces of the military and economic superpower that is the USA. Regardless of the status / knowledge of the specific $391M aid package, Ukraine was in fairly dire straights and rather desperate for assistance from Washington on a number of fronts. And if the United States wants to take advantage of their desperate situation to get some particular concession or favors out of them, great(-ish. I don’t think that it’s entirely ethical, but if its open and above board, then it’s not more or less underhanded then most international diplomacy.) But if an individual uses the power of his office to get personal concessions and favors, then that is open abuse of power, and exactly the sort of things that the founders were thinking when they penned the words “High Crimes”. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2019, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771/2847 "2019-10-16T21:11:09Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > And if the United States wants to take advantage of their desperate situation to get some particular concession or favors out of them, great(-ish. I don’t think that it’s entirely ethical, but if its open and above board, then it’s not more or less underhanded then most international diplomacy.) But if an individual uses the power of his office to get personal concessions and favors, then that is open abuse of power, and exactly the sort of things that the founders were thinking when they penned the words “High Crimes”. Good post. And it’s particularly damning when the “favor” the individual asks for is for the country to investigate his political opponent. And it’s worse if the individual directs the country to work on this “favor” with his own personal attorney who holds no position in the government. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2019, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771/2848 "2019-10-16T21:28:54Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > Okay, then we are agreed that he was withholding funds in exchange for a favor. We just don’t agree whether or not that is something that is illegal? … No, we agree that he was withholding funds. We agree that it was happening at a time that coincided with him asking for a favor. But we do NOT agree that “he was withholding funds **in exchange for** a favor.” (emphasis mine). I hope that’s clear. > [@k9bfriender](#): > > … Not sure what you are trying to get at here. Your cite even says that they knew that they didn’t have the money and were desperately scrambling to figure out why. … My cite says “he believed $391 million worth of military aid was already on its way to Kiev”. It’s essentially the difference between believing that “the check is in the mail” and being told “I’m not going to pay you”. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2019, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771/2849 "2019-10-16T21:29:57Z")
> [@Fiddle\_Peghead](#): > > … it is using his office for personal gain, and that is really the issue for me. Could you elaborate on this point a bit? A couple of days ago, I posted this: > [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > … For example, if a fictional president were to ask a fictional foreign government for a favorable trade agreement sometime before his re-election bid, perhaps even planning on touting in campaign commercials how he had arranged a favorable trade agreement with this foreign government and it had brought benefits to the working class, I suppose by the strict letter of the law, one might try to claim that he had “solicited” an “other thing of value” from the foreign government, but I find that interpretation ludicrous. As the NPR article pointed out, the President needs some latitude to conduct foreign policy without any favorable thing being interpreted as an “other thing of value” for purposes of campaign finance laws. Your thoughts? Is pursuing any policy objective that might benefit the president in a re-election campaign “using his office for personal gain” in your eyes? ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2019, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771/2850 "2019-10-16T22:52:40Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > No, I think it’s pretty clear from the public record that the $391M was being withheld… > Ukraine was reportedly unaware the funds were being deliberately withheld… > > I think they were unaware it was being withheld at the time of the call:. So your point here is that Trump is a backstabber? No argument here. Kurdish deaths underscore his perfidy. ---
**Author:** ![Fiveyearlurker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/da6949/32.png) [@Fiveyearlurker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiveyearlurker)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2019, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771/2851 "2019-10-16T22:54:00Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > No, we agree that he was withholding funds. We agree that it was happening at a time that coincided with him asking for a favor. But we do NOT agree that “he was withholding funds **in exchange for** a favor.” (emphasis mine). I hope that’s clear. Come on? Seriously? This is where the goalpost is now? It’s not quid pro quo, it’s quid (wink, wink) quo, so that’s fine? ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2019, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771/2852 "2019-10-16T23:06:22Z")
> [@Fiveyearlurker](#): > > Come on? Seriously? This is where the goalpost is now? It’s not quid pro quo, it’s quid (wink, wink) quo, so that’s fine? The goalposts are in the same place they have always been. Several weeks and many pages ago in this thread, I posted this: > [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > AFAICT President Trump never “mentioned it on a call” that he was withholding aid until Ukraine did what he wanted. Certainly nothing like “If the prosecutor is not fired, you’re not getting the money.” Please tell me you understand at least that much. > [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > I read it. It doesn’t show where President Trump made a “promise” either. It’s perfectly clear in the transcript that he wanted the Ukranians to look into the Crowdstrike server and Hunter Biden’s corruption. What’s not clear is what Ukraine was going to get as a result of doing that. The “promise” from President Trump isn’t there. He doesn’t say something like " do X, Y, and Z and you’ll get your Javelins" or “once you’ve done that, I’ll make sure you get the aid money you’ve been waiting for”. I understand some of you think that’s _implied_, but it’s not _stated_, can we agree on at least that basic fact? > [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > No, he didn’t. This first sentence in the above quote is false. He didn’t “offer to trade US aid”. He didn’t even mention the financial aid at all on the call, and as I said before: More recently, I’ve said this: > [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > You’re still misquoting him. And no, I don’t “see the quid pro quo now”. I see why you think it’s _implied_, but I don’t find your assumptions / summaries there convincing (or accurate). If we can both agree, as **YamatoTwinkie** does, that no quid pro quo is overtly stated, I’m content to leave you with your own interpretation of what might be implied. It is not one shared by me though. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2019, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771/2853 "2019-10-16T23:09:21Z")
You’re saying that Ukraine NEVER knew that they were supposed to provide political dirt on Biden to get the aid Congress intended to provide them? ---
**Author:** ![CaptMurdock](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/captmurdock/32/11736_2.png) [@CaptMurdock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CaptMurdock)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2019, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771/2854 "2019-10-16T23:19:07Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > You’re saying that Ukraine NEVER knew that they were supposed to provide political dirt on Biden to get the aid Congress intended to provide them? Head, meet Brick Wall. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2019, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771/2855 "2019-10-16T23:35:59Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > No, we agree that he was withholding funds. We agree that it was happening at a time that coincided with him asking for a favor. But we do NOT agree that “he was withholding funds **in exchange for** a favor.” (emphasis mine). I hope that’s clear. Your conclusion is clear. Your rationale, not so much. > [@](#): > > My cite says “he believed $391 million worth of military aid was already on its way to Kiev”. It’s essentially the difference between believing that “the check is in the mail” and being told “I’m not going to pay you”. So, do you really believe that when people say “the check is in the mail”, that the check is actually in the mail? Your cite also says, ““Yes, of course we were worried, because actually we didn’t find any plausible reason” for the aid to be delayed”. Zelensky was “under the impression” that the aid was on its way, but he was also very aware that it had not yet arrived. If there is no plausible reason for the aid to be delayed, and yet, the aid is not in your bank account, when the person responsible for administering that aid calls up and asks for a favor, would you think that that favor that they are asking for would have anything to do with the aid that you can find no plausible reason to be delayed? ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2019, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771/2856 "2019-10-17T00:08:55Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Is pursuing any policy objective that might benefit the president in a re-election campaign “using his office for personal gain” in your eyes? I would say, “Yes.” ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2019, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771/2857 "2019-10-17T00:40:21Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > I would say, “Yes.” Oh good. Someone fell in the trap. Here, let me give you some homework for the questions Ditka will now present you: So you think improving the economy because it will help in the next election should be a crime?!?!? ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2019, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771/2858 "2019-10-17T01:55:01Z")
> [@running\_coach](#): > > Why don’t you tear off your fucking blindfold? And pull out the earplugs? That’ll earn you a warning, running coach. You should know better than such. EVERYONE: One more issue in this thread and it’s closed and I won’t let you open another one for several days. If you can’t control yourself, take ti to the Pit. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2019, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771/2859 "2019-10-17T01:59:09Z")
> [@snfaulkner](#): > > We used to be the world’s police force. Now we’re straight up mercenaries. Hired goons. I wonder how the soldiers feel knowing that their lives are now simply services to be rented out or perhaps sold outright for someone else’s profit. ---
**Author:** ![KarlGauss](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/karlgauss/32/3713_2.png) [@KarlGauss](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KarlGauss)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2019, 3:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771/2860 "2019-10-17T03:26:46Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > I wonder how the soldiers feel knowing that their lives are now simply services to be rented out or perhaps sold outright for someone else’s profit. Well, [here’s](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EHCRHKtW4AA6o3g?format=png&name=small) how the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff feels. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771.md?page=142) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771.md?page=144)