# The Trump Impeachment Inquiry **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [September 24, 2019, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771 "2019-09-24T20:23:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 15
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2019, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771/281 "2019-09-25T18:09:22Z")
> [@Dale\_Sams](#): > > Ahh. Gotcha (no sarcasm) FWIW, the federal bribery statute says it is a crime if the President (or any public official): “directly or indirectly, corruptly demands, seeks, receives, accepts, or agrees to receive or accept anything of value personally or for any other person or entity, in return for being influenced in the performance of any official act.” Here, it would be seeking information or other assistance with his presidential campaign in exchange for agreeing to release military aid to Ukraine. The transcript has Zelensky talking about the need for the US aid that Trump himself suspended and Trump saying, “I would like you to do us a favor though,” before asking for information in two categories: (1) related to his conspiracy theory that the DNC framed Russia for the 2016 email hack, to help him counter the narrative of the Mueller Report; and (2) derogatory information about Joe Biden. The main question is whether the assistance sought from Ukraine is “anything of value.” It is an unsettled question. The Mueller Report said this on the subject: > [@](#): > > A campaign can be assisted not only by the provision of funds, but also by the provision of derogatory information about an opponent. Political campaigns frequently conduct and pay for opposition research. A foreign entity that engaged in such research and provided resulting information to a campaign could exert a greater effect on an election, and a greater tendency to ingratiate the donor to the candidate, than a gift of money or tangible things of value. At the same time, no judicial decision has treated the voluntary provision of uncompensated opposition research or similar information as a thing of value that could amount to a contribution under campaign-finance law. … Those questions could be especially difficult where the information consisted simply of the recounting of historically accurate facts. It is uncertain how courts would resolve those issues. ---
**Author:** ![guizot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guizot/32/3636_2.png) [@guizot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/guizot)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2019, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771/282 "2019-09-25T18:10:53Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > If there was an alien observing this, s/he might think Earth is a mishmash of parallel universes, Or they might be able to see the larger view, and note that so far this could be no different from Watergate. (“[The Myth of Watergate Bipartisanship – The Republicans stuck with their president, right up to the end](https://www.nytimes.com/2018/08/13/opinion/watergate-republican-party.html),” _New York Times_.) ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2019, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771/283 "2019-09-25T18:14:16Z")
> [@Dale\_Sams](#): > > Sounds more like extortion. i point this out only because > > 1. If it gets bad for Trump enough you can be sure this distinction will be made. > > 2, “I did not attempt to bribe the man. I can prove it because it was extortion.” is a hilarious defense. My call to Cornyn and Cruz, today: "Trump is bribing the President of Ukraine with the Taxpayer’s money. As a taxpayer, I find this bribery impeachable. And bribery is defined as such in the Constitution under Article 2, section 4. Do you need anything else? Thank you." Just keep it simple - this isn’t a criminal investigation, it’s a political one, and what they’re truly investigating is whether The American People (meaning… us) is going to stand up for this. And the best way to let them understand the answer is “yes, we will not let this stand!” is to _call your Reps and Senators and say the above._ Today. Now. And repeatedly. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2019, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771/284 "2019-09-25T18:15:29Z")
> > [@](#): > > On whether Senators would vote for impeachment, > @murphymike > says, “One Republican senator told me if it was a secret vote, 30 Republican senators would vote to impeach Trump.” If this is accurate, then some Republicans may work in secret to help the Democrats find something very, very damning against Trump. But who knows? We live in a very, very silly time and place. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2019, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771/285 "2019-09-25T18:16:42Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > FWIW, the federal bribery statute says it is a crime if the President (or any public official): > “directly or indirectly, corruptly demands, seeks, receives, accepts, or agrees to receive or accept anything of value personally or for any other person or entity, in return for being influenced in the performance of any official act.” No point in diffusing the Ukraine problem that way. If that is going to be an impeachment article, it’s a much more direct link to the Trump Hotel in DC. The routine direction of USAF crews, and funds, to Turnberry is just ordinary low-grade corruption. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2019, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771/286 "2019-09-25T18:18:22Z")
> [@Fiveyearlurker](#): > > Republicans: There is no crime to investigate without explicit magic phrases of quid pro quo. And _There Was No Collusion!_ ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2019, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771/287 "2019-09-25T18:18:40Z")
Yeah, my point is that fitting this into a federal crime box at all is a mistake. It is obviously an egregious abuse of power to even ask for foreign assistance in a US election, much less withhold military aid to achieve that end. ---
**Author:** ![Dale\_Sams](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/779978/32.png) [@Dale\_Sams](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dale_Sams)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2019, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771/288 "2019-09-25T18:21:41Z")
Hey I’m just spitballing trying to figure out what actual official defense we will hear in the end: “I was not bribing anyone. They (The Ukranian govt.) broke their own laws by squelching the investigation into Biden. All I did was demand they follow their own laws before i would release the taxpayers money that has been allocated to them.” Edit: That’s not gonna work is it? Sorry Donnie…I did my best. You’re on your own. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2019, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771/289 "2019-09-25T18:24:44Z")
Lawfare: [Don’t Over-Legalize Impeachment](https://www.lawfareblog.com/dont-over-legalize-impeachment). > [@](#): > > This is an understandable impulse, but it should be resisted, at least for now. The question is not whether Trump broke federal criminal law. The question is whether he has failed to uphold his constitutional duties and should be impeached and removed from office. Another article, [So You Want to Impeach the President](https://www.lawfareblog.com/so-you-want-impeach-president) lays out how to do that and what not to focus on. > [@](#): > > This is why it is critically important to be disciplined at this juncture—to base articles of impeachment only on that activity which is not merely a plausible basis for removal but is unambiguously justified as a basis for removal. That means that anything that is a matter of policy—no matter how much one might disagree with the policy or how abhorrent one might find it—should not be included. For example, Congress should strongly resist the temptation to include disputes over border security—including both spending on the wall and the grotesque policy of family separation—in any articles it might draw up. > > It also means that Congress should avoid issues that implicate Trump’s conduct before he became president. > > \ > > It also means ignoring for impeachment purposes Trump’s likely criminality with respect to the Daniels and McDougal payments. While this activity spilled over into his presidency, it is predominantly pre-presidential. > [@](#): > > Finally, articles of impeachment should not include alleged violations of the Emoluments Clause in connection with the operation of the Trump Organization’s many commercial properties. > [@](#): > > In short, Congress should focus for impeachment purposes only on matters of unacceptable presidential conduct that are provable on the basis of currently available evidence and that are thus easily presentable to the Senate for judgment. ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2019, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771/290 "2019-09-25T18:29:02Z")
I would like to note that in this call the bribery goes both ways: 1. Trump received a bribe by the Ukrainian President stating he stays at Trump properties. 2. Trump offered a bribe of taxpayer funds for the Biden investigation. Lastly… didn’t Ukraine receive a mysterious _additional_ $140m on top of the $250m authorized by Congress? Bribery. That’s the crime. And it goes both ways: offering and receiving. ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2019, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771/291 "2019-09-25T18:31:15Z")
Here’s the bribe: > **[On support for Ukraine, extra $140 million draws scrutiny](https://www.msnbc.com/rachel-maddow-show/support-ukraine-extra-140-million-draws-scrutiny-msna1281981)** > > The Trump administration initially delayed $250 million in aid to Ukraine, before releasing a $390 million package. Where'd the extra $140 million come from? > [@](#): > > **On support for Ukraine, extra $140 million draws scrutiny** > > It didn’t cause much of a stir at the time, but the Associated Press ran a report two weeks ago that may be relevant anew. It noted that Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskiy announced at a conference that the United States had released $250 million in military aid – with an additional $140 million on top of that sum. > > The Trump administration said Thursday [Sept. 12] that it has released $250 million in military aid to Ukraine that had been held up. It didn’t mention additional funds. > > Zelenskiy’s deputy chief of staff Kirill Tymoshenko confirmed to The Associated Press after the president’s speech that Ukraine is indeed expecting an extra $140 million from the U.S., but he wouldn’t give detail on the source or designation of the funds. > > There may very well be nothing to this, but it was a curious series of events. The Trump administration was supposed to give Ukraine $250 million, but that money was on hold when the American president spoke via phone to his Ukrainian counterpart – a conversation in which Trump reportedly pressed Zelenskiy eight times about investigating Biden. It’s all right there, guys: Trump gave $140 million of taxpayer money to Ukraine so they may open the Biden investigation. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2019, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771/292 "2019-09-25T18:31:50Z")
**Bo:** That’s what it should be, sure. However, one other thing the Republicans did in the Clinton case is get it widely accepted that impeachment is simply how the criminal justice system operates for Presidents (so, you see, they \*had \*to do it, it was required by law. :rolleyes:). That was even though the Constitution explicitly says the opposite. A corollary, also bullshit but still out there, is the notion that impeachment is \*not \*permissible if the conduct is \*not \*criminal, but is simply political spite. That all needs to be cleared away. ---
**Author:** ![Fiddle\_Peghead](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fiddle_peghead/32/3506_2.png) [@Fiddle\_Peghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiddle_Peghead)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2019, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771/293 "2019-09-25T18:32:26Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > That “mistake” has GOT TO BE deliberate on the part of a staffer who has just had enough of the bullshit. I doubt it. It was sent by [Tori Symonds](https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2019/09/the-white-house-accidentally-sent-democrats-its-ukraine-call-talking-points.html), Special Assistant to the President and Director of Government Communications. Er, _ **EX** _-Special Assistant to the President and Director of Government Communications, that is. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2019, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771/294 "2019-09-25T18:34:35Z")
> [@steronz](#): > > So Trump says this: > And the folks over on r/Conservative agree wholeheartedly. The whole transcript is a nothingburger, they say, and it shows a perfectly normal call, nothing bad in it, nope, everything’s fine. > > So that’s the angle. Commit wrongdoing right out in the open and pretend it’s not wrongdoing. [It wasn’t me](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u_f6qFBQD9U). [I didn’t do it.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AcU8O5AudTM) ---
**Author:** ![Fiddle\_Peghead](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fiddle_peghead/32/3506_2.png) [@Fiddle\_Peghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiddle_Peghead)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2019, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771/295 "2019-09-25T18:37:50Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > The article strictly talks about questioning the release of the partial transcript, not questioning the president’s “Nice aid package you got, shame if something happened to it” rhetoric within the call. They’re concerned about campaign strategy, not about national security or governmental ethics. Oh, for a minute I got my hopes up. :rolleyes: Seriously though, thanks for the reply. ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2019, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771/296 "2019-09-25T18:41:20Z")
The redacted (…) sections are about the $140 million. I’d bet next months mortgage on that\*. \*Disclaimer: Not a betting man. ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2019, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771/297 "2019-09-25T18:42:54Z")
Trump is speaking. Guys, he’s just too emotional to hold office. LOL, he ended his co-statement with Zelensky by declaring Pelosi is no longer Speaker of the House. (Trump said this, not Zelensky.) > “Nancy Pelosi, as far as I’m concerned, unfortunately, she’s no longer the Speaker of the House” ---
**Author:** ![ThelmaLou](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thelmalou/32/390_2.png) [@ThelmaLou](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ThelmaLou)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2019, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771/298 "2019-09-25T18:43:00Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > No, fuck them, I hate paywalls. Yeah! Everything should always be free! No one should charge for legitimate products or services! :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![KidCharlemagne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed8c4c/32.png) [@KidCharlemagne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KidCharlemagne)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2019, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771/299 "2019-09-25T18:43:40Z")
Watching Trump and a couple Republicans on Fox, it appears they’re going to play the “Democrats are wasting time and blocking important legislation on gun control, infrastructure, and drug prices.” When the Senate acquits they are going to go fucking nuts about his “innocence.” We are truly fucked. This was an impetuous move that changes nothing regarding the investigation, but opens us up to look like idiots. ---
**Author:** ![Dale\_Sams](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/779978/32.png) [@Dale\_Sams](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dale_Sams)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2019, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771/300 "2019-09-25T18:44:36Z")
> [@ThelmaLou](#): > > Yeah! Everything should always be free! No one should charge for legitimate products or services! :dubious: You are every Democrat running for President and I claim my five pounds. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771.md?page=14) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771.md?page=16)