# The Trump Impeachment Inquiry **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [September 24, 2019, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771 "2019-09-24T20:23:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 171
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2019, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771/3401 "2019-10-29T15:07:30Z")
> [@Fiveyearlurker](#): > > The right wing talking point seems to be that Vindman was born in Ukraine and therefore his loyalty to the US is questionable. Multiple people have brought that up now on various news shows, so apparently this was the coordinated best response they could come up with. Yep. Throw the decorated soldier under the bus. That is the Republican Way of Things now. And yes, it is obviously a coordinated talking point, and Fox News is on board. What gets me is; do these people not realize that they will be the next under the bus? It’s perfectly obvious that Trump has no loyalty whatsoever, and will knife anyone at any time. ---
**Author:** ![ThelmaLou](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thelmalou/32/390_2.png) [@ThelmaLou](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ThelmaLou)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2019, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771/3402 "2019-10-29T15:10:10Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Well, depends… > [@OttoDaFe](#): > > I’d rather have one that didn’t need so much pampering. Are we going to have to separate you two?? :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2019, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771/3403 "2019-10-29T15:11:35Z")
“Wahhh, we want to be able to intimidate and threaten witnesses during the investigation!” I mean, they are spreading malicious crap about a decorated soldier - just because he dared to have an opinion that Trump’s call to the Ukraine was troubling. He DARED to think that The Donald was not perfect. The thing is, Republican politicians KNOW this is bullshit. But they pile it up confident their moron base does not know it is bullshit. ---
**Author:** ![BrianDime](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ad7895/32.png) [@BrianDime](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrianDime)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2019, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771/3404 "2019-10-29T15:12:03Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Well, depends… OK, that was legit funny. You got me. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2019, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771/3405 "2019-10-29T15:12:29Z")
> [@ThelmaLou](#): > > Are we going to have to separate you two?? :dubious: Luv your response. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2019, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771/3406 "2019-10-29T15:17:16Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Well, depends… > [@OttoDaFe](#): > > I’d rather have one that didn’t need so much pampering. > [@ThelmaLou](#): > > Are we going to have to separate you two?? :dubious: Make them sit in the corner on a stool. ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2019, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771/3407 "2019-10-29T15:24:45Z")
Everyone needs to have a group hug(gie). ---
**Author:** ![SmellMyWort](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ea5d25/32.png) [@SmellMyWort](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SmellMyWort)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2019, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771/3408 "2019-10-29T15:43:21Z")
I’m wondering if Vindman might be one of the whistleblower’s sources. ---
**Author:** ![CaptMurdock](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/captmurdock/32/11736_2.png) [@CaptMurdock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CaptMurdock)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2019, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771/3409 "2019-10-29T16:07:16Z")
And now, the pushback against the GOP smearing Vindman comes from… […Liz Cheney?!?](https://twitchy.com/gregp-3534/2019/10/29/liz-cheney-calls-out-republicans-questioning-lt-col-alexander-vindmans-patriotism/) > [@](#): > > “It is shameful to question their patriotism, their love of this country” :eek: I don’t want to spread rumors about entering strange places, but the large rabbit with the pocketwatch standing next to me is asking if I want to have tea with the hookah-smoking caterpillar. ---
**Author:** ![jsc1953](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/5daacb/32.png) [@jsc1953](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jsc1953)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2019, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771/3410 "2019-10-29T16:12:26Z")
> [@CaptMurdock](#): > > And now, the pushback against the GOP smearing Vindman comes from… > > […Liz Cheney?!?](https://twitchy.com/gregp-3534/2019/10/29/liz-cheney-calls-out-republicans-questioning-lt-col-alexander-vindmans-patriotism/) > > :eek: > > I don’t want to spread rumors about entering strange places, but the large rabbit with the pocketwatch standing next to me is asking if I want to have tea with the hookah-smoking caterpillar. We could compile a list of Republicans who have demonstrated some tiny amount of scruples, and are willing to draw a line somewhere. It shouldn’t take long; the list is pretty short. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2019, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771/3411 "2019-10-29T16:15:11Z")
> [@eschrodinger](#): > > Yes, and? Of course there will be arguments on both sides. > > I have yet to hear any argument that would mean they could disobey the subpoena. And I think the possibility of a winning argument on that is exceedingly slim. But what I’m saying is that there is no punishment for the United States if it refuses to comply with a subpoena up until they have lost their legal argument in court. So without punishment, nothing except good will prevents the United States from _immediately_ complying with subpoenas. Basically, the executive branch can stall if it wants to. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![bobot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bobot/32/21622_2.png) [@bobot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bobot)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2019, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771/3412 "2019-10-29T16:35:45Z")
> **[White House adviser tells lawmakers Trump Ukraine call raised national...](https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-trump-whistleblower/trump-adviser-testifies-about-alarm-over-call-with-ukraine-leader-idUSKBN1X8112)** > > A senior White House official testified on Tuesday he was so alarmed by hearing U.S. President Donald Trump ask Ukraine's president to investigate a political rival, Democrat Joe Biden, that he reported the matter to a White House lawyer. "Even before his arrival, some allies of the Republican president, including Fox News host Laura Ingraham, sought to attack Vindman’s integrity and questioned his loyalty to the United States. … Democratic U.S. Representative Katherine Clark wrote on Twitter that Republicans were attacking “a purple heart recipient because they can’t defend the President’s actions.” The Purple Heart is awarded to those wounded or killed while serving in the U.S. military. " There is certainly a problem here with someone’s loyalty to the United States, and the problem lies not with the Lt. Col. ---
**Author:** ![Celidin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/cc9497/32.png) [@Celidin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Celidin)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2019, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771/3413 "2019-10-29T16:55:00Z")
> [@steronz](#): > > I mean, he’s active duty, what else would he show up to work in? Active duty military are required\* to wear their full dress uniform for any business at the White House or on The Hill. So unsurprising that the Colonel would follow procedure. But damn that paints a certain picture, doesn’t it? \*\* Source: the West Wing, Episode 1.19 “Let Bartlet be Bartlet”\* ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2019, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771/3414 "2019-10-29T17:03:23Z")
> [@steronz](#): > > Why on earth do you think any reasonable person is still willing to “wait and see”? Why are you still giving Trump the benefit of the doubt? > > In addition to the executive failings I outlined in [post #3140](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=21932161&postcount=3140), we can now add a new one - - Respectfully I’ll address this later, after I respond to post #3140. > [@steronz](#): > > [The current executive] fails to understand the most basic function of the house oversight committee and embarks on a misguided legal strategy because of it. There are 7th graders who understand civics better than this guy. How much longer do we need to let this example in Dunning Kruger play out? I doubt seventh graders learn about the house oversight committee. I remember learning very basic things such as how a bill becomes a law, Schoolhouse Rock style. We learned that bills get stuck in committees. We did _not_ get into any specific committees or their functions, except that bills have to go through committees before Congress can vote on it. It wasn’t until Government class in twelfth grade that I learned what committees did, and there we learned that the Steering Committees decide what gets put to the vote, the Rules Committees do procedural rules, and the Judiciary Committees do impeachment inquiries and federal judiciary stuff. There’s no way we spent more than two days on this stuff. Other committees were largely self-explanatory, eg: the agriculture committee does agriculture laws, the budget committee does the budget, the energy committee oversees the dept. of energy, the transportation committee does highways, etc. The Oversight committee wasn’t mentioned, or if it was, it wasn’t prominent. (or I don’t remember it) But still, I admitted that _I_ misunderstood the House Oversight Committee’s function. **eschrodinger** asked why I focused on a bogus argument based on a misunderstanding of the Oversight Committee, and the answer is that I didn’t know the argument was bogus. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2019, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771/3415 "2019-10-29T17:07:13Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …[“You underestimate the power of the Dark Side.”](https://twitter.com/ndrew_lawrence/status/1189002513594441730) Very predictable, and unfortunately, very effective. People have short memories: there was a mountain - no, a mountain range - of evidence implicating Trump and his close associates in coordinating with Russian operatives and obstruction of justice. Yet, he survived, and more to the point: people here just don’t seem to give a shit what he does. Based on recent history, I suspect that it won’t mean jack shit what is said about Trump’s infamous phone call, or by whom. This is going to be remembered as another Iran-Contra, but perhaps a little bit worse than that. We know how that turned out. Reagan left office pretty much as popular as when he entered it. The only thing that will bring Trump down is a hard economic downturn. That is it. Only when people perceive that they are somehow paying a price for living life under Trump will they turn on him. And even then, we’re just talking about 10% of the country, which would be enough to tilt an election I guess. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2019, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771/3416 "2019-10-29T17:08:56Z")
> [@bobot](#): > > [https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-trump-whistleblower/trump-adviser-testifies-about-alarm-over-call-with-ukraine-leader-idUSKBN1X8112](https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-trump-whistleblower/trump-adviser-testifies-about-alarm-over-call-with-ukraine-leader-idUSKBN1X8112) > "Even before his arrival, some allies of the Republican president, including Fox News host Laura Ingraham, sought to attack Vindman’s integrity and questioned his loyalty to the United States. > … > Democratic U.S. Representative Katherine Clark wrote on Twitter that Republicans were attacking “a purple heart recipient because they can’t defend the President’s actions.” The Purple Heart is awarded to those wounded or killed while serving in the U.S. military. " > > There is certainly a problem here with someone’s loyalty to the United States, and the problem lies not with the Lt. Col. Yeah, he received a Purple Heart, but then again, he worked during the OBAMA PRESIDENCY!!! :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![MulderMuffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muldermuffin/32/2862_2.png) [@MulderMuffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MulderMuffin)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2019, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771/3417 "2019-10-29T17:19:49Z")
Alexander Vindman said: > [@](#): > > Vindman says in his opening statement he reported his concerns about the call “internally to National Security officials in accordance with my decades of experience and training, sense of duty, and obligation to operate within the chain of command.” Fiona Hill: > [@](#): > > Hill told lawmakers that after the meeting, Bolton instructed her to go raise their concerns about the shadow Ukraine operations with White House lawyers. From the Washington Post: > [@](#): > > At least four national security officials were so alarmed by the Trump administration’s attempts to pressure Ukraine for political purposes that they raised concerns with a White House lawyer both before and immediately after President Trump’s July 25 call with that country’s president, according to U.S. officials and other people familiar with the matter. From a Washington Post timeline of the whistleblower complaint: > [@](#): > > On Aug. 12, a whistleblower filed a complaint regarding Trump’s Ukrainian relations to the inspector general of the intelligence community, Michael Atkinson, based on conversations with more than half a dozen U.S. officials. > > Two weeks later, Atkinson, finding the report credible and urgent, forwarded it to Joseph Maguire, the acting director of national intelligence. Maguire sought the advice of the Justice Department’s Office of Legal Council, which determined the complaint should not be shared with the House and Senate intelligence committees. John Yarmuth of the House Committee of the Budget and Nita Lowey of the House Committee of Appropriations sent a letter dated September 27, 2019 that stated: > [@](#): > > As we stated in our September 18th letter, we have serious concerns that recent apportionment actions by the Office of Management and Budget (OMB) to withhold military aid for Ukraine and other foreign assistance constitute unlawful impoundments in violation of the ICA and are an abuse of the authority provided to the President to apportion appropriations. There are plenty more examples of people calling attention to the apparent wrongs being committed by the Trump administration to many different departments and officials. I cannot understand how NOT ONE of those channels believed it was worth investigating or how they kept it quiet for so long. I wonder if any of these people who ignored warnings, complaints, and red flags will be investigated and called to answer for their willful blindness. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2019, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771/3418 "2019-10-29T17:24:56Z")
> [@steronz](#): > > You keep trying to dance on the head of this pin here. And maybe, sure, maybe Trump will be standing there on the head of that pin with you after all the cards fall. With God, all things are possible. > > But please, take a step back. At best, AT BEST, this Ukraine fiasco tells us 3 things. One, Trump is a terrible leader, since his own state department employees have testified that they had no fucking clue what was going on. Two, Trump is a terrible communicator, since no coherent message was ever presented to his own staff about his vision for Ukraine. And three, Trump has absolutely no understanding about ethics in government. I’ll admit all three in an instant. > [@steronz](#): > > So MAYBE you’re right, in that Trump is totally ethical but just completely bad at his job. Is that the goal post now? > > Isn’t it much more likely that the reason he keeps finding himself in these ethical quandaries is that, you know, he actually lacks ethics? Respectfully, that has been the goalpost since at least October 1. See my [POST=21892045]post #1446[/POST], which reads in part: > [@Max\_S](#): > > Just because it is political doesn’t mean it isn’t foreign policy. I think the whole Ukraine-hacked-the-DNC thing is bogus, just like you do. I trust the intelligence community (and Mr. Mueller) who pointed at Russia. Nevertheless, Mr. Trump seems to think that the question is still open. He also seems to think that Hunter Biden may have done something contrary to Ukrainian or U.S. law. Assuming the worst, that rogue elements in Ukraine interfered and may again interfere with the U.S. election and that Joe Biden’s family has corrupt ties to Ukraine, it almost makes sense not to sell Ukraine a bunch of missiles until they crack down on this stuff. > > I think both conspiracy theories are a waste of time and fall apart under scrutiny, but Mr. Trump plausibly made the call as a matter of foreign policy. Maybe you want to try and prove that Mr. Trump has common sense and knows conspiracy theories, ubiquitous in my local media, hold no water. > > If the House wants to impeach Mr. Trump over that, they will have to convince themselves that Mr. Trump knew the conspiracy theories were baseless. That he isn’t a gullible fool, but a calculating mafioso intent on abusing his authority to put down his opponents. Trump will be out there making himself out to be a conspiracy-spouting fool, either because he really is one, or because the alternative is to be impeached. > > You don’t impeach the president if he is unfit for office, you impeach him for high crimes and misdemeanors. Remember that. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![bobot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bobot/32/21622_2.png) [@bobot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bobot)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2019, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771/3419 "2019-10-29T17:30:02Z")
Vindman opening statement .PDF [https://apps.npr.org/documents/document.html?id=6531807-Vindman-Statement-Final](https://apps.npr.org/documents/document.html?id=6531807-Vindman-Statement-Final) ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2019, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771/3420 "2019-10-29T17:33:30Z")
> [@ThelmaLou](#): > > And they want it to be over and done with well before the election. The timing of the inquiry will be interesting. I get the sense that Pelosi’s decision to put the inquiry to a vote this week isn’t just responding to pressure from Republicans; it’s possible that there’s some momentum and she wants to take advantage of it. Even without a conviction, impeachment could still work to the favor of Democrats. For one thing, we can be sure that it will elicit reactions from the President, many of which will be impulsive and self-destructive – that’s always a good thing from the Dems’ side, politically. But additionally, if the House can do a particularly good job laying out the case for impeachment, then that could make vulnerable Senate republicans look like total dog shit for being partisans (looking at you Susan Collins). And on the other hand, if the case is good enough to convince some Republicans to jump ship, then that divides the party. If the divisions are really, really intense, it might push some Republicans into leaving the party a la Arlen Specter. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771.md?page=170) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771.md?page=172)