# The Trump Impeachment Inquiry **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [September 24, 2019, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771 "2019-09-24T20:23:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 176
**Author:** ![Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b487fb/32.png) [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walken_After_Midnight)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2019, 2:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771/3501 "2019-10-30T02:42:38Z")
Lt. Col. Vindman’s testimony also appears to contradict Rick Perry’s version of events. [_Politico_](https://www.politico.com/news/2019/10/29/nsc-official-testimony-ukraine-perry-061244): > [@](#): > > Testimony from a senior White House official on Tuesday appeared to contradict Energy Secretary Rick Perry’s ardent denials that he ever heard former Vice President Joe Biden or his son Hunter discussed in relation to U.S. requests that Ukraine investigate corruption. > … > [The] timeline would put Perry in the meeting when Vindman raised his objections about Sondland’s request that Ukrainian officials investigate the Bidens — which Perry has repeatedly denied. > > “Not once, as God is my witness, not once was a Biden name — not the former vice president, not his son — ever mentioned,” Perry told the CBN News on Oct. 7. He repeated those denials in a Fox News radio interview last week. ---
**Author:** ![MulderMuffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muldermuffin/32/2862_2.png) [@MulderMuffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MulderMuffin)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2019, 2:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771/3502 "2019-10-30T02:46:03Z")
Ken Starr: > [@](#): > > “It just seems we need to ratchet the conversation down because of the evils of impeachment. Impeachment has become a terrible, terrible thorn in the side of the American democracy and the conduct of American government since Watergate. . . . Let’s at least have a reasoned and deliberate conversation about some lesser kind of response.” Yes, THAT Ken Starr. There’s a whole lot of “Do as I say, not as I do,” going around with Republicans who were responsible for the Clinton impeachment. He advocates censuring Trump at most, because impeachment is bad for our democracy. Unless you lie about a blowjob, I guess. -from The Washington Post > **[Opinion | Suddenly Ken Starr doesn’t like impeachment so much](https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2019/10/29/suddenly-ken-starr-doesnt-like-impeachment-so-much/)** > > The man who directed the impeachment of Bill Clinton is now telling us that impeachment goes too far. ---
**Author:** ![Aspenglow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aspenglow/32/76_2.png) [@Aspenglow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aspenglow)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2019, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771/3503 "2019-10-30T02:47:00Z")
> [@JohnT](#): > > Eh, back in the real world, color me agog to find out Vindman has a twin brother who works in the NSC’s ethics office and is also a potential witness. > [@jasg](#): > > and hearing this news, Fox reporters are convinced he is a double agent! Doesn’t this make him a quadruple agent? ---
**Author:** ![Isamu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/7c8e57/32.png) [@Isamu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Isamu)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2019, 3:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771/3504 "2019-10-30T03:16:34Z")
> [@Defensive\_Indifference](#): > > Man, I _never_ would have expected the Republicans to question the service or loyalty of a decorated veteran who happened to oppose the President. Sure, debate the man’s ideas, but question his courage or patriotism? That’s the kind of thing Republicans just never used to do. Yep, one thing you could always count on was Republicans treating our servicemembers with respect. I guess this is just one more thing Trump has fundamentally changed about the Republican party. 2004 Swift Boating against Kerry. ---
**Author:** ![drad\_dog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@drad\_dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drad_dog)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2019, 3:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771/3505 "2019-10-30T03:23:07Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > Whether or not that is unreasonable requires a long and uninteresting debate over whether a reasonable person in the President’s position would or should trust the intelligence community, given the leaks, the investigations of those close to him, etc. Attempting to justify those and other actions could easily lead to a “factual” question for the rationale behind every presidential act, and even private acts before his term. > > ~Max You are posing this question to potential US voters. So giving him the benefit of the doubt right now, involves ignoring: Birtherism, mongering Divestment, lying about it, not doing it. Tax returns, lying and failing to produce mexico’s wall, lying and fantasism. All of this was before the election. There is plenty after but you don’t need it. He has broken any trust he might have had with any normal person by lying at each point. So we have to accept his electoral victory, but our cooperation is conditional on his being clean. Joe Biden for instance has nothing to do with this and we don’t have the civic interest in him that we do in the POTUS. So there is anohter untruth hidden in plain sight in this story: dt and jb are in diffferent lanes in american life and one of them we need to worry about, while the other is pretty bland. Bringing jb into it is just b.s. That’s the reasonable take. ---
**Author:** ![Chisquirrel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6bbea6/32.png) [@Chisquirrel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chisquirrel)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2019, 4:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771/3506 "2019-10-30T04:29:23Z")
> [@Isamu](#): > > 2004 Swift Boating against Kerry. The only soldiers Republicans honor are the ones that don’t disagree with them. ---
**Author:** ![Monocracy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monocracy/32/4493_2.png) [@Monocracy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monocracy)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2019, 10:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771/3507 "2019-10-30T10:30:32Z")
> [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](#): > > Lt. Col. Vindman’s testimony also appears to contradict Rick Perry’s version of events. > > [_Politico_](https://www.politico.com/news/2019/10/29/nsc-official-testimony-ukraine-perry-061244): Rick Perry was also named in Amb. Taylor’s testimony as one of the people involved in the irregular, unofficial channel of diplomacy with Ukraine. Perry’s announcement of his resignation right after the Ukraine story broke is highly suspicious. With him being somewhat of a nationally known politician, I’m surprised there haven’t been more questions, attention, and news stories about his involvement in this scandal. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2019, 12:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771/3508 "2019-10-30T12:30:02Z")
> [@](#): > > “Not once, as God is my witness, not once was a Biden name — not the former vice president, not his son — ever mentioned,” Perry told the CBN News on Oct. 7. He repeated those denials in a Fox News radio interview last week. Hopefully the witness will agree to testify when the three subpoenas are issued. ---
**Author:** ![carlb](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carlb/32/5930_2.png) [@carlb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carlb)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2019, 1:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771/3509 "2019-10-30T13:02:43Z")
> [@2nd\_Law](#): > > Quoted for emphasis. > > An impeachment isn’t a criminal trial, it is an inherently political act. The “jurors” (US Senate) can and do determine what the burden of proof that determines their individual votes themselves. > > I have no doubt that there are current members of the Senate who would refuse to vote to remove Trump from office if there was videotape of him shooting someone dead, whereas these same people would have voted to remove Obama if there had been an uncorroborated rumor that Obama had jaywalked once when he was six years old. You know, I’ve started to think about impeachment as closer to a really, really serious meeting with HR potentially leading to the subject’s firing. It’s ultimately what we’re talking about here; firing the CEO because he or she is not acting in the company’s best interests. _ **Maybe** _ some of the acts in question violate a law, but an illegal act is not a necessary predicate to letting someone go. ---
**Author:** ![bobot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bobot/32/21622_2.png) [@bobot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bobot)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2019, 1:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771/3510 "2019-10-30T13:20:39Z")
The Ukraine call transcript, damning as it is, was still sanitized for release. According to yesterday’s Lt. Col. testimony. \*\*“(CNN) — \*\*The National Security Council’s top Ukraine expert [told House impeachment investigators](https://www.cnn.com/2019/10/29/politics/vindman-testimony-whistleblower-identity/index.html) on Tuesday that he tried to make changes to the White House’s rough transcript of the July phone call between President Donald Trump and Ukraine’s President, including that Trump mentioned tapes of former Vice President Joe Biden, according to a source familiar with the matter. Lt. Col. Alexander Vindman testified that one example of his attempts to change the transcript was to include Trump telling Ukraine President Volodymyr Zelensky there were tapes of Biden, which [The New York Times reported](https://www.nytimes.com/2019/10/29/us/politics/alexander-vindman-trump-ukraine.html) occurred where there’s an ellipsis in the transcript that was released. The change was not made. The assertion that some portion of the conversation was replaced by an ellipsis contradicts the White House’s statement in September that the ellipses in the transcript did not represent missing words or phrases. It also contradicts the President who has insisted the transcript the White House released was an exact depiction of the call…” > **[Vindman says White House omitted Trump's reference to Biden tapes in...](https://www-m.cnn.com/2019/10/30/politics/alexander-vindman-testimony-white-house-transcript/index.html?r=https%3A%2F%2Fnews.google.com&rm=1)** > > The National Security Council's top Ukraine expert told House impeachment investigators on Tuesday that he tried to make changes to the White House's rough transcript of the July phone call between President Donald Trump and Ukraine's President,... ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Duality](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.duality/32/4098_2.png) [@Mr.Duality](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Duality)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2019, 1:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771/3511 "2019-10-30T13:30:19Z")
Someone who has never heard of “shadow of a doubt” might not be from the US. I’m looking at YOU, **MaxS**. ---
**Author:** ![guizot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guizot/32/3636_2.png) [@guizot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/guizot)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2019, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771/3512 "2019-10-30T13:57:05Z")
> [@carlb](#): > > You know, I’ve started to think about impeachment as closer to a really, really serious meeting with HR potentially leading to the subject’s firing. It’s ultimately what we’re talking about here; firing the CEO because he or she is not acting in the company’s best interests. _ **Maybe** _ some of the acts in question violate a law, but an illegal act is not a necessary predicate to letting someone go. That was the idea behind impeachment, and all the legal technicalities have just come up as partisan desperation to stay in power. The first removal by way of impeachment was a judge, for being a loud-mouthed drunk–it wasn’t about breaking the law. It was about being unfit for office. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2019, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771/3513 "2019-10-30T14:39:28Z")
Does anyone even care about who the whistleblower is at this point? Everything they have said has been completely corroborated. We now know that the phone call was even WORSE than the whistleblower reported. The “transcript” was sanitized by removing references to Biden. Sondland and Perry were lying. The Republicans yesterday tried desperately to smear the latest witness against them. As has been said earlier, if this was an actual criminal investigation, Trump and others would have been arrested for trying to intimidate witnesses. If this were an actual criminal trial, Trump and others would have been arrested for witness tampering. ---
**Author:** ![bobot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bobot/32/21622_2.png) [@bobot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bobot)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2019, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771/3514 "2019-10-30T14:43:33Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > Does anyone even care about who the whistleblower is at this point?.. Republicans do. They want him/her outed so they can make his/her life hell. To protect Donald Trump. It’s all quite honorable. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2019, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771/3515 "2019-10-30T14:45:27Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > Does anyone even care about who the whistleblower is at this point? Only some Republicans. The desperation behind trying so hard to get the name after the horse is already out of the barn is telling me they’re just looking for some way to get revenge. ---
**Author:** ![Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b487fb/32.png) [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walken_After_Midnight)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2019, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771/3516 "2019-10-30T14:52:17Z")
[Charlie Savage](https://twitter.com/charlie_savage/status/1189536485273411587), _NYT_: > [@](#): > > Buried in the Democrats’ new impeachment rules is a proviso that will empower Nadler gag Trump’s lawyers from cross-examining witnesses as punishment if Trump continues to stonewall subpoenas. [https://www.nytimes.com/2019/10/29/us/politics/impeachment-resolution-trump.html](https://www.nytimes.com/2019/10/29/us/politics/impeachment-resolution-trump.html) ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2019, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771/3517 "2019-10-30T14:55:51Z")
It seems the Republican “strategy” at this point is: - Deny the sky is blue - Personally attack and smear anyone who says the sky is blue - Attack the procedures of the “color of the sky committee” It helps that they have a whole network dedicated to repeating their bullshit lies (or making their own bullshit lies) and a group of uneducated, gullible fools who will mindlessly follow them. ---
**Author:** ![drad\_dog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@drad\_dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drad_dog)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2019, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771/3518 "2019-10-30T17:36:12Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > Would you like to make a spin-off thread in Great Debates? > Corruptness, _or_ ineptitude. Given the presumption of innocence… > > ~Max > **[Trump Wants You to Know He’s Smart Enough to ‘Do Quid Pro Quo’](https://www.thedailybeast.com/trump-wants-you-to-know-hes-smart-enough-to-do-quid-pro-quo?ref=home)** > > Everyone should just stop saying he’s too dumb or incompetent to commit crimes—he could totally pull them off if he wanted to, Trump has been complaining privately. Does it make a difference if dt doesn’t want your presumption? ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2019, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771/3519 "2019-10-30T18:00:45Z")
[Article about Nadler that doesn’t bug anyone to create an account or log in.](https://www.rollcall.com/news/congress/democrats-impeachment-rights-for-trump-include-loophole-to-take-them-away) ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2019, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771/3520 "2019-10-30T18:19:54Z")
> [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](#): > > Lt. Col. Vindman’s testimony also appears to contradict Rick Perry’s version of events. > > [_Politico_](https://www.politico.com/news/2019/10/29/nsc-official-testimony-ukraine-perry-061244): Given that Perry has a habit of forgetting key details, all I can say is… Oops. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771.md?page=175) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771.md?page=177)