# The Trump Impeachment Inquiry **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [September 24, 2019, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771 "2019-09-24T20:23:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 177
**Author:** ![TroutMan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/troutman/32/6721_2.png) [@TroutMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TroutMan)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2019, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771/3521 "2019-10-30T18:35:47Z")
> [@Monocracy](#): > > Rick Perry was also named in Amb. Taylor’s testimony as one of the people involved in the irregular, unofficial channel of diplomacy with Ukraine. Perry’s announcement of his resignation right after the Ukraine story broke is highly suspicious. With him being somewhat of a nationally known politician, I’m surprised there haven’t been more questions, attention, and news stories about his involvement in this scandal. Rick Perry is the labrador retriever of the current scandal - dumb and goofy, always ready to play, usually drooling. No one suspects some evil agenda when he craps on the rug. ---
**Author:** ![Defensive\_Indifference](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/defensive_indifference/32/6502_2.png) [@Defensive\_Indifference](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Defensive_Indifference)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2019, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771/3522 "2019-10-30T19:30:17Z")
> [@Isamu](#): > > 2004 Swift Boating against Kerry. Didja notice a hint of irony in my post 🙂 Republicans haven’t left Trump because, by and large, he’s a mainstream Republican. He’s doing what other Republicans either have done or would have done if they thought they could get away with it. The only thing that sets him apart is the tweets and obvious mental impairment. This is what Republicans have been for years. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2019, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771/3523 "2019-10-30T19:37:37Z")
> [@drad\_dog](#): > > [Trump Wants You to Know He’s Smart and Capable Enough to ‘Do Quid Pro Quo’](https://www.thedailybeast.com/trump-wants-you-to-know-hes-smart-enough-to-do-quid-pro-quo?ref=home) > > Does it make a difference if dt doesn’t want your presumption? Let’s also note: > **['I think I’d take it': In exclusive interview, Trump says he would listen if...](https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/id-exclusive-interview-trump-listen-foreigners-offered-dirt/story?id=63669304)** > > In an ABC News exclusive, President Donald Trump said he may not alert the FBI to overtures from foreign governments during the 2020 race. And, I feel it should be pointed out: > **[Stephen Calk](https://publius2point0.wordpress.com/2019/01/25/stephen-calk/)** > > Let’s say that it’s 2pm on a Saturday and you want to buy some heroin. There’s a nice, big, inviting building with the word “Police” over the front door. You could go … Presumption of innocence tends to go away during criminal trials through the introduction of “evidence as to the character and personality of the accused”. When I am prosecuting a man of killing his girlfriend, I will almost never succeed at doing this by having a video tape of him killing his girlfriend. I will likely not even have a knife with his fingerprints and the shape of his hand blocking out blood from the handle. What I will have is testimony that various others saw him hitting his girlfriend, maybe one or two people saying that he said that he was going to kill her, etc. By the standards that people seem to apply to Trump, for proving that he’s guilty of anything, they go far beyond any standard that we use to throw people into jail for the rest of their life, when we’re just talking about firing a guy from his job. General evidence of character and previous MO is ignored. That is nonsensical. Nearly everyone who has worked in this White House has said that they’ve been asked to perform illegal acts by the President. The Mueller report has legal testimony that also says this and further goes on to say that, after Trump was told that certain things were illegal, he simply continued to ask for those things to be done. That little nugget of the Mueller report alone, completely ignoring “obstruction of justice” or anything, is an impeachable offense. The Oath of Office for the Presidency requires that the President defend and _execute_ the laws of the land. Asking people to break the law, having just been informed that the requests are illegal, is as direct an offense against the Oath and basic fundamentals of the job description as you can get. As said before, “High Crimes and Misdemeanors” means any abuse of the office or failure to live up to your oath that was intentional. In a criminal case, I could point to the fact that Trump has said that he will commit crimes to go after his opponents and that he has a documented history of asking people to commit criminal activities of similar nature. The lack of a smoking gun would not be a large component of the jury’s deliberations. Smoking guns are not the standard of evidence that we use and, if we did, the number of people in jail would decrease by 99.5%. ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2019, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771/3524 "2019-10-30T20:15:07Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > Let’s also note: > > ['I think I’d take it': In exclusive interview, Trump says he would listen if foreigners offered dirt on opponents - ABC News](https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/id-exclusive-interview-trump-listen-foreigners-offered-dirt/story?id=63669304) > > And, I feel it should be pointed out: > > [Stephen Calk « Reason for a New Age](https://wp.me/pLjYm-aX) > > Presumption of innocence tends to go away during criminal trials through the introduction of “evidence as to the character and personality of the accused”. > > When I am prosecuting a man of killing his girlfriend, I will almost never succeed at doing this by having a video tape of him killing his girlfriend. I will likely not even have a knife with his fingerprints and the shape of his hand blocking out blood from the handle. What I will have is testimony that various others saw him hitting his girlfriend, maybe one or two people saying that he said that he was going to kill her, etc. > > By the standards that people seem to apply to Trump, for proving that he’s guilty of anything, they go far beyond any standard that we use to throw people into jail for the rest of their life, when we’re just talking about firing a guy from his job. General evidence of character and previous MO is ignored. That is nonsensical. > > Nearly everyone who has worked in this White House has said that they’ve been asked to perform illegal acts by the President. The Mueller report has legal testimony that also says this and further goes on to say that, after Trump was told that certain things were illegal, he simply continued to ask for those things to be done. > > That little nugget of the Mueller report alone, completely ignoring “obstruction of justice” or anything, is an impeachable offense. The Oath of Office for the Presidency requires that the President defend and _execute_ the laws of the land. Asking people to break the law, having just been informed that the requests are illegal, is as direct an offense against the Oath and basic fundamentals of the job description as you can get. As said before, “High Crimes and Misdemeanors” means any abuse of the office or failure to live up to your oath that was intentional. > > In a criminal case, I could point to the fact that Trump has said that he will commit crimes to go after his opponents and that he has a documented history of asking people to commit criminal activities of similar nature. The lack of a smoking gun would not be a large component of the jury’s deliberations. Smoking guns are not the standard of evidence that we use and, if we did, the number of people in jail would decrease by 99.5%. And if the protests of the accused had any weight (“it was a perfect call, I’m innocent, other people do it to”) - there nuber of people in jail would be zero. ---
**Author:** ![jsc1953](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/5daacb/32.png) [@jsc1953](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jsc1953)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2019, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771/3525 "2019-10-30T20:27:37Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > … > > By the standards that people seem to apply to Trump, for proving that he’s guilty of anything, they go far beyond any standard that we use to throw people into jail for the rest of their life, when we’re just talking about firing a guy from his job. General evidence of character and previous MO is ignored. That is nonsensical. Your comparison to a criminal trial is marvelous, and thank you for that. However: This will be a criminal trial where the facts are more or less a given, but the defendant is going to try to argue that what he’s accused of isn’t really a crime, or at worst it’s a misdemeanor. ---
**Author:** ![Running\_with\_Scissors](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/a183cd/32.png) [@Running\_with\_Scissors](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Running_with_Scissors)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2019, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771/3526 "2019-10-30T20:38:30Z")
> [@jsc1953](#): > > Your comparison to a criminal trial is marvelous, and thank you for that. However: This will be a criminal trial where the facts are more or less a given, but the defendant is going to try to argue that what he’s accused of isn’t really a crime, or at worst it’s a misdemeanor. Not just the defendant, but also a good part of the jury. ---
**Author:** ![Running\_with\_Scissors](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/a183cd/32.png) [@Running\_with\_Scissors](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Running_with_Scissors)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2019, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771/3527 "2019-10-30T20:42:21Z")
By the way, I probably missed it (this thread already has \> 3500 responses, and I came in in the middle), but why does _quid pro quo_ even matter? Isn’t asking a foreign power for assistance with an election a serious enough charge? ---
**Author:** ![racepug](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@racepug](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/racepug)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2019, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771/3528 "2019-10-30T20:49:59Z")
> [@Running\_with\_Scissors](#): > > By the way, I probably missed it (this thread already has \> 3500 responses, and I came in in the middle), but why does _quid pro quo_ even matter? **Isn’t asking a foreign power for assistance with an election a serious enough charge?** Yes. But trying to state otherwise is just another attempt by Republicans to “move the goalposts” on this issue. Something that Republicans are absolute masters at. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2019, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771/3529 "2019-10-30T20:50:02Z")
> [@jsc1953](#): > > Your comparison to a criminal trial is marvelous, and thank you for that. However: This will be a criminal trial where the facts are more or less a given, but the defendant is going to try to argue that what he’s accused of isn’t really a crime, or at worst it’s a misdemeanor. But the standard is neither crime nor misdemeanor, it’s “High Crimes and Misdemeanors”. While, perversely, that contains the same words the meaning of the phrase is completely unrelated to modern usage of the words. “Maladministration”, for example, wouldn’t be considered to be a component of the phrase as we would think it, but it is included by the intent of the founders: [https://www.lawfareblog.com/impeachable-offense](https://www.lawfareblog.com/impeachable-offense) ---
**Author:** ![Kolak\_of\_Twilo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kolak_of_twilo/32/73_2.png) [@Kolak\_of\_Twilo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kolak_of_Twilo)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2019, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771/3530 "2019-10-30T20:55:07Z")
> [@Running\_with\_Scissors](#): > > By the way, I probably missed it (this thread already has \> 3500 responses, and I came in in the middle), but why does _quid pro quo_ even matter? Isn’t asking a foreign power for assistance with an election a serious enough charge? It should matter, yes. And if this were a President who was a Democrat the GOP would be screaming bloody murder. But since this guy is a Republican they are going to act as if it is no big deal. They like to play the patriotic card all the time but it’s mostly bullshit. Also, I just saw the Dems are asking Bolton to testify next week. It should have been pretty obvious this was coming. The question though is will he show up? Even though Trump may claim executive privilege Bolton seems to genuinely despise him and may actually spill his guts. It will be interesting. And we need to stop with the phrase quid pro quo and just call it extortion since people understand what that actually is. ---
**Author:** ![bobot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bobot/32/21622_2.png) [@bobot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bobot)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2019, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771/3531 "2019-10-30T21:02:18Z")
> [@Running\_with\_Scissors](#): > > By the way, I probably missed it (this thread already has \> 3500 responses, and I came in in the middle), but why does _quid pro quo_ even matter? … It doesn’t. It’s a Republican way of saying: Nevermind that, look over here at this instead. > [@Running\_with\_Scissors](#): > > … Isn’t asking a foreign power for assistance with an election a serious enough charge? The specific thing Trump did was ask a foreign government to investigate a US citizen for him. And that is absolutely a violation of his oath to this country and our constitution. ---
**Author:** ![Running\_with\_Scissors](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/a183cd/32.png) [@Running\_with\_Scissors](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Running_with_Scissors)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2019, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771/3532 "2019-10-30T21:42:57Z")
> [@bobot](#): > > The specific thing Trump did was ask a foreign government to investigate a US citizen for him. And that is absolutely a violation of his oath to this country and our constitution. Whenever this is mentioned, the Pubs are quick to bring up the Steele dossier (which of course was originally funded by a Republican campaign, but don’t let that bother you). But Steele wasn’t a government employee, and he wasn’t hired by a current office holder. Which of those two facts is significant, or is it both? Or neither? ---
**Author:** ![bobot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bobot/32/21622_2.png) [@bobot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bobot)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2019, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771/3533 "2019-10-30T21:51:02Z")
At a bare minimum, the Steele dossier wasn’t initiated by President Obama. That’s just for starters. ---
**Author:** ![Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b487fb/32.png) [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walken_After_Midnight)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2019, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771/3534 "2019-10-30T22:28:55Z")
[Roberta Rampton](https://twitter.com/robertarampton/status/1189651407508516864), _NPR_: > [@](#): > > BREAKING - Tim Morrison - slated to testify in the impeachment inquiry tomorrow - to leave Trump’s National Security Council, via @FrancoOrdonez @nprpolitics [Michael S. Schmidt](https://twitter.com/nytmike/status/1189668013672415232), _NYT_: > [@](#): > > Bolton’s lawyer, Charles Cooper, has responded to the House request for his testimony, saying “Bolton is not willing to appear voluntarily.” Cooper added: “I stand ready at all times to accept service of a subpoena on his behalf.” ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2019, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771/3535 "2019-10-30T23:08:14Z")
I’m guessing Tim Morrison will be the next victim of the Smear campaign. I wonder what lies Fox News will be preparing for tomorrow? ---
**Author:** ![Kolak\_of\_Twilo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kolak_of_twilo/32/73_2.png) [@Kolak\_of\_Twilo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kolak_of_Twilo)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2019, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771/3536 "2019-10-30T23:18:27Z")
Sorta curious what the comment from Bolton’s lawyer neans. Is it possible Bolton won’t testify voluntarily but is signaling he will show up if subpoenaed? ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2019, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771/3537 "2019-10-30T23:20:21Z")
He is possibly signaling his willingness to testify w/ a subpoena so he can CYA. ---
**Author:** ![steatopygia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steatopygia/32/3132_2.png) [@steatopygia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steatopygia)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2019, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771/3538 "2019-10-30T23:27:08Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > I’m guessing Tim Morrison will be the next victim of the Smear campaign. I wonder what lies Fox News will be preparing for tomorrow? I think Trump hasn’t used “rat” since Cohen slipped up. “Snitch” is probably next. ---
**Author:** ![squeegee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/squeegee/32/14537_2.png) [@squeegee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/squeegee)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2019, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771/3539 "2019-10-30T23:30:09Z")
> [@JohnT](#): > > He is possibly signaling his willingness to testify w/ a subpoena so he can CYA. As several other witnesses have done. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2019, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771/3540 "2019-10-30T23:32:12Z")
> [@Kolak\_of\_Twilo](#): > > Sorta curious what the comment from Bolton’s lawyer neans. Is it possible Bolton won’t testify voluntarily but is signaling he will show up if subpoenaed? I suspect Bolton wants to wait until the Thursday meeting about Kupperman’s request to get a ruling on which branch of government he has to obey. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771.md?page=176) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771.md?page=178)