# The Trump Impeachment Inquiry **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [September 24, 2019, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771 "2019-09-24T20:23:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 181
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2019, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771/3601 "2019-10-31T20:39:14Z")
I think if they get Colonel Vindman on the stand, in public and in uniform, with Republicans slandering him in public, that could be hugely effective in terms of the perception of voters. ---
**Author:** ![eschrodinger](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschrodinger/32/122_2.png) [@eschrodinger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschrodinger)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2019, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771/3602 "2019-10-31T20:45:00Z")
> [@eschrodinger](#): > > I think the Senate might vote on whether, or which, rules of evidence would apply. I seem to vaguely recall that happening in the Clinton impeachment trial, and I think they may have voted to have Rehnquist rule based on the Federal Rules of Evidence. I can’t look it up right now, though. I think my vague recollection was totally wrong. The Senate voted on the procedures for the trial, including some having to do with when and how evidence would be taken (they started with a presentation of the House evidence, later, they took a vote on whether to subpoena witnesses). But I don’t think they decided to apply the Federal Rules of Evidence. > [@Akaj](#): > > Wow, the law is weird. So if I’m establishing Trump’s dishonesty … > [ul] > [li]The 10,000+ documented falsehoods he’s spoken or written since taking office _are not_ admissible, but[/li][li]Some random person’s opinion that “Trump is an inveterate liar” _is_ admissible?[/li][/ul] If what you are proving is that the witness is dishonest, yes. ---
**Author:** ![Akaj](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/akaj/32/145_2.png) [@Akaj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Akaj)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2019, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771/3603 "2019-10-31T21:08:49Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I think if they get Colonel Vindman on the stand, in public and in uniform, with Republicans slandering him in public, that could be hugely effective in terms of the perception of voters. Because when Trump slandered Khizr and Ghazala Khan (whose son died in Iraq) it backfired so badly on him? ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2019, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771/3604 "2019-10-31T21:09:38Z")
> [@Akaj](#): > > Because when Trump slandered Khizr and Ghazala Khan (whose son died in Iraq) it backfired so badly on him? And McCain. Even McCain didn’t hold it against him. ---
**Author:** ![Grrr](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/grrr/32/146_2.png) [@Grrr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grrr)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2019, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771/3605 "2019-10-31T21:35:03Z")
> [@Akaj](#): > > Because when Trump slandered Khizr and Ghazala Khan (whose son died in Iraq) it backfired so badly on him? Well, those were brown people. Slandering a white colonel might have more staying power with the “Murica” type folks. ---
**Author:** ![Steken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e274bd/32.png) [@Steken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steken)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2019, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771/3606 "2019-10-31T22:01:13Z")
> [@Grrr](#): > > Well, those were brown people. Slandering a white colonel might have more staying power with the “Murica” type folks. “But he was born in the Soviet Union! The guy’s Ukrainian!” That’s their spin on this, and they’ve already started putting it out there. ---
**Author:** ![drad\_dog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@drad\_dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drad_dog)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2019, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771/3607 "2019-10-31T22:08:01Z")
> [@Steken](#): > > “But he was born in the Soviet Union! The guy’s Ukrainian!” That’s their spin on this, and they’ve already started putting it out there. It’s very strange. They are accusing him of an old anti semitic trope, but because he is actually jewish they can’t go full on with it. It would create a contradiction: He would have to have loyalties to both Ukraine and Israel, and betray the US to both of them, to fulfill their wish list. ---
**Author:** ![Aspenglow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aspenglow/32/76_2.png) [@Aspenglow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aspenglow)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2019, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771/3608 "2019-10-31T22:20:01Z")
I’ll just [leave this here](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QXUlhT3-r0c&feature=youtu.be) for a bit of levity. (Youtube) ---
**Author:** ![KarlGauss](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/karlgauss/32/3713_2.png) [@KarlGauss](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KarlGauss)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2019, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771/3609 "2019-10-31T22:39:02Z")
A number of recent posts seem to be suggesting that should Trump be acquitted in the Senate (as he most likely will), it will do huge, maybe irreparable, damage to the Democrats. But the Trumpists have already peaked. They will gain no momentum from such a ‘vindication’. On the other hand, if the Senate acquits him, 60 percent of the population will become an energized, unstoppable force next November. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2019, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771/3610 "2019-10-31T22:49:27Z")
> [@KarlGauss](#): > > A number of recent posts seem to be suggesting that should Trump be acquitted in the Senate (as he most likely will), it will do huge, maybe irreparable, damage to the Democrats. But the Trumpists have already peaked. They will gain no momentum from such a ‘vindication’. > > On the other hand, if the Senate acquits him, 60 percent of the population will become an energized, unstoppable force next November. What percent of the 60% vote and are they in the key states to win the Presidency? ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2019, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771/3611 "2019-10-31T23:07:09Z")
> [@Modesty\_Blaise](#): > > This thread has been _riveting_. Really, one of the best threads I’ve read and I’ve read many. Even the hijacks have been kept way down. It has been enjoyable and appreciated. > > Your posts, in particular have stood out to me. They’re always timely and informative, often entertaining and sometimes downright funny. 🙂 > > Thank you from a grateful lurker. Well, mostly lurker. Thank you. That’s high praise coming from Vince Vega’s reading material, indeed! ---
**Author:** ![KidCharlemagne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed8c4c/32.png) [@KidCharlemagne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KidCharlemagne)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2019, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771/3612 "2019-10-31T23:44:53Z")
> [@Dr.Colossus](#): > > You’re under estimating how little attention some people pay to the news, current events, and especially politics. I know some people who have opinions about Trump but no clue what’s going on. I think most people on the SDMB vastly overestimate the degree of political engagement (and intelligence) of the average American. For those Americans even moderately politically engaged, there’s still a minefield between them and the truth. Some people could be open-minded to impeachment but ignorant to political bias, watch Fox News and see highlights from hearings that grossly distort the truth. ---
**Author:** ![Sherrerd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sherrerd/32/8_2.png) [@Sherrerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sherrerd)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2019, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771/3613 "2019-11-01T00:17:04Z")
> [@Dr.Colossus](#): > > You’re under estimating how little attention some people pay to the news, current events, and especially politics. I know some people who have opinions about Trump but no clue what’s going on. > [@KidCharlemagne](#): > > I think most people on the SDMB vastly overestimate the degree of political engagement (and intelligence) of the average American. For those Americans even moderately politically engaged, there’s still a minefield between them and the truth. Some people could be open-minded to impeachment but ignorant to political bias, watch Fox News and see highlights from hearings that grossly distort the truth. Yes, this fundamental flaw in reasoning is forming the basis of far too many opinions, such as: > [@A\_poster\_I'm\_not\_trying\_to\_call\_out\_specifically](#): > > A number of recent posts seem to be suggesting that should Trump be acquitted in the Senate (as he most likely will), it will do huge, maybe irreparable, damage to the Democrats. **But the Trumpists have already peaked. They will gain no momentum from such a ‘vindication’**. (my emphasis) Here again we have the unwarranted assumption that the US eligible-to-vote population is divided into Trump’s Base + Well-Informed Voters Who Know Trump Deserves Removal from Office. The corollary is that the relative proportions of these two groups is pretty well set. The Base will neither shrink nor grow, and more importantly, the number of people who believe Trump is a danger to the nation (and who are committed to voting against him) will neither shrink nor grow. But this view does not reflect reality. There is a very large middle ground of people who are eligible to vote but maybe don’t vote or don’t vote very often, and who pay very little attention to anything having to do with politics. They may have heard of ‘impeach Trump’ as a thing that’s going on, but they really have no clue what it’s all about. Some of these people will hear things about the ongoing impeachment process that will convince them that they should vote, and that they should vote either to support Trump or to support his opponent. But we can’t easily predict how they will make their decision (nor how many of them there are in which categories, in which key states). For perspective: study after study after study shows results such as: \*\*\*33% of Americans cannot name even _one_ of the three branches of our government (legislative, executive, judicial) \*\*\*Only 26% (in 2017) to 33% (in 2018) can name all three branches of government \*\*\*57% of Americans cannot name even _one_ Supreme Court Justice \*\*\*In December 2018, “according to a survey released this month by Johns Hopkins University, 1 out of 3 people can’t name their governor, 4 out of 5 can’t say who their state legislator is and roughly half don’t know whether they have a uni- or bicameral legislature.” That’s just a sampling. It’s a human trait to tend to take for granted that ‘most people are basically like me’—but that’s not a justified or correct belief when it comes to ‘being informed about what’s going on.’ > **[Americans Are Poorly Informed About Basic Constitutional Provisions | The...](https://www.annenbergpublicpolicycenter.org/americans-are-poorly-informed-about-basic-constitutional-provisions/)** > > Many Americans are poorly informed about basic constitutional provisions, according to APPC's Constitution Day Civics Survey. It finds that 37% can’t name any of the rights under the First Amendment and only 26% can name all three branches of... [https://www.axios.com/most-americans-cant-name-a-supreme-court-justice-1513301080-31bfd275-c3d6-452b-b2d7-e80328f6e09a.html](https://www.axios.com/most-americans-cant-name-a-supreme-court-justice-1513301080-31bfd275-c3d6-452b-b2d7-e80328f6e09a.html) > **[Civics Knowledge Predicts Willingness to Protect Supreme Court | The...](https://www.annenbergpublicpolicycenter.org/civics-knowledge-survey-willingness-protect-supreme-court/)** > > The annual Annenberg Constitution Day Civics Survey found that Americans are familiar with constitutional provisions involving impeachment and pardons, but know less about fundamentals like the three branches of government. > **[Who's Your Governor? 1 in 3 Americans Don't Know.](https://www.governing.com/archive/gov-americans-knowledge-state-government.html)** > > A new survey reveals how little the public knows about their state government. Media coverage is partly to blame. ---
**Author:** ![KarlGauss](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/karlgauss/32/3713_2.png) [@KarlGauss](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KarlGauss)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2019, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771/3614 "2019-11-01T00:37:32Z")
> [@Sherrerd](#): > > There is a very large middle ground of people who are eligible to vote but maybe don’t vote or don’t vote very often, and who pay very little attention to anything having to do with politics. They may have heard of ‘impeach Trump’ as a thing that’s going on, but they really have no clue what it’s all about. As the poster who appreciated ‘not being called out specifically’, what are the demographics of this group? Are they disproportionately young, old? What is their level of educational attainment? And, of course, what do we know about their socio_economic_ status? In any case, why is it not a reasonable first estimation to assume that whatever percentage of that group actually gets out and votes in 2020, the ones that do will vote with much the same split as the ‘traditional’ voting population? ---
**Author:** ![Sherrerd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sherrerd/32/8_2.png) [@Sherrerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sherrerd)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2019, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771/3615 "2019-11-01T01:13:44Z")
> [@KarlGauss](#): > > As the poster who appreciated ‘not being called out specifically’, what are the demographics of this group? Are they disproportionately young, old? What is their level of educational attainment? And, of course, what do we know about their socio_economic_ status? In any case, why is it not a reasonable first estimation to assume that whatever percentage of that group actually gets out and votes in 2020, the ones that do will vote with much the same split as the ‘traditional’ voting population? I doubt if there are unimpeachable (heh) answers to all your questions in any one source, and an attempt to answer them all would be a months-long research project at the very least. As one good source notes about the difficulties involved, for example: > [@](#): > > Pollsters have long noted that poll respondents overstate their voting participation. A primary reason – although not the only one – is that people like to think of themselves in a favorable light within social norms, in this case presenting themselves as voters even if they did not vote. [http://www.electproject.org/home/voter-turnout/demographics](http://www.electproject.org/home/voter-turnout/demographics) ^ That page has voting turnout rates by race/ethnicity, age, and education level, from 1984 to 2018. National turnout rates from 1787 to 2016 can be reached from this page: [http://www.electproject.org/home/voter-turnout/voter-turnout-data](http://www.electproject.org/home/voter-turnout/voter-turnout-data) They are embarrassingly low, needless to say. The _Washington Post_ provided some summary information in a long article from a year ago. Some brief excerpts: > [@](#): > > … The Post analyzed voting data from more than 3,000 counties in the 2016 election and found that those with lowest rates of participation, as measured by those eligible to vote, were concentrated in a handful of states: West Virginia, Texas, Georgia, Tennessee, Kentucky and Arizona. > > … Demographically, the counties with the lowest participating rates are often impoverished, sparsely populated and rural; their residents make less money than most Americans and are less likely to own their home or have a college degree. The wealthiest counties in the country had the highest rates of participation, while the poorest counties had the lowest rates. > > … Typically, young Americans and minorities have lower voting rates than older, white residents. Homeownership and having children in the school system, among other means of rooting in civic life, generally propel people to vote, studies have shown. > … > **[Despite rampant voter enthusiasm, the reality: Many don’t plan to vote in...](https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/despite-rampant-voter-enthusiasm-the-reality-many-dont-plan-to-vote-in-november/2018/10/17/d2773a9a-cbda-11e8-920f-dd52e1ae4570_story.html)** > > Americans cite skepticism and disillusionment as reasons for declining to cast ballots. Basically, reliable and accurate answers to your questions would be something that any political campaign would pay large dollars to acquire. I’d be surprised, though, if the ‘_may hear something during the impeachment process and therefore decide to vote even though voting isn’t something done often_’ contingent fell into the current “pay attention and love Trump, versus pay attention and despise Trump” groups’ proportions (an idea referenced in your last question). I suppose stranger things have happened, but it would seem an odd coincidence if it did. And, no, I don’t see a source that describes ‘don’t pay attention’ and ‘do pay attention’ groups demographically—the ‘don’t usually vote/do usually vote’ research, described in the two citations listed above, may be the best proxy available. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2019, 12:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771/3616 "2019-11-01T12:07:41Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I think if they get Colonel Vindman on the stand, in public and in uniform, with Republicans slandering him in public, that could be hugely effective in terms of the perception of voters. I wish. They didn’t seem to mind a gold star family getting smeared. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2019, 12:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771/3617 "2019-11-01T12:25:23Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > I wish. They didn’t seem to mind a gold star family getting smeared. They were brown, Vindman is white. ---
**Author:** ![bobot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bobot/32/21622_2.png) [@bobot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bobot)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2019, 12:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771/3618 "2019-11-01T12:31:52Z")
I still have no hope that the senate will do the right thing here, but I am satisfied that, so far, the house is doing the right thing and history will forever state that. A conviction in the senate would blow me away just as Trump’s electoral college victory did. ---
**Author:** ![ThelmaLou](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thelmalou/32/390_2.png) [@ThelmaLou](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ThelmaLou)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2019, 12:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771/3619 "2019-11-01T12:39:15Z")
> [@running\_coach](#): > > They were brown, Vindman is white. Well… can you REALLY be “_white_-white” if you were born in a country where English is not the native language? I don’t think so. See, those kind of people are white if it suits our purposes, but _non_-white if THAT will help us out more. Got it? :dubious: And to think that people say Pubbies are rigid! _Harrumph_! We are, in fact, \*\*very \*\*flexible and change opinions and beliefs whenever it’s convenient. ---
**Author:** ![KidCharlemagne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed8c4c/32.png) [@KidCharlemagne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KidCharlemagne)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2019, 12:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771/3620 "2019-11-01T12:43:38Z")
> [@bobot](#): > > I still have no hope that the senate will do the right thing here, but I am satisfied that, so far, the house is doing the right thing and history will forever state that. A conviction in the senate would blow me away just as Trump’s electoral college victory did. I have little to no hope either, and while it’s nice that history will forever state that the house did the right thing, I fear that statement may likely result in a history also forever stating a Trump victory in 2020. These are awful, awful times. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771.md?page=180) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771.md?page=182)