# The Trump Impeachment Inquiry **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [September 24, 2019, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771 "2019-09-24T20:23:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 189
**Author:** ![Sherrerd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sherrerd/32/8_2.png) [@Sherrerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sherrerd)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2019, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771/3761 "2019-11-04T00:10:46Z")
> [@Buck\_Godot](#): > > Also they figure if they can find out who the whistle blower is, they (and their base) can make his life a living hell. Which will deter others from potentially coming forward. Yes. Trump’s greatest danger lies in the dozens—possibly hundreds—of workers in government at all levels who have witnessed him saying or doing things that could get him expelled from office. What Trump needs is what Putin has: a population that knows, deeply and with no ambiguity, that choosing to criticize the President is a choice to die by violence. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2019, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771/3762 "2019-11-04T00:23:55Z")
> [@ThelmaLou](#): > > The WB must be punished! [Space Jam](https://www.spacejam.com/archive/spacejam/movie/jam.htm) wasn’t _that_ bad. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2019, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771/3763 "2019-11-04T00:26:45Z")
> [@Buck\_Godot](#): > > Also they figure if they can find out who the whistle blower is, they (and their base) can make his life a living hell. Which will deter others from potentially coming forward. Yeah, the attempt to find the whistleblower seems pretty hard to defend in the same organization that has created all of the laws in the land to protect the identities of whistleblowers so as to prevent retaliation and intimidation tactics from being used against them. ---
**Author:** ![steatopygia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steatopygia/32/3132_2.png) [@steatopygia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steatopygia)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2019, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771/3764 "2019-11-04T00:51:35Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > One notes that if you look at the comments under the transcript published on Fox, the Republican readers generally view it as being completely acceptable and above-board, from their take. And, I would say, if you read it from a position of ignorance that may seem like a reasonable take. > > Trump says that the prosecutor who was removed by Biden was a good man. Trump is the President and Trump tells the truth, ergo Biden removed a good man from the government of Ukraine. The Ukrainian President does not object to this statement nor contradict it in any way. > > Trump never mentions corruption, but Zelensky does open with “drain the swamp”. I find that a little questionable - knowing that the “transcript” is a creation put together by Trump’s legal and PR team. But that does give an opening to say that Trump and Zelensky were all primed to talk about corruption. (Though, Trump leads off with Crowdstrike and, based on the ellipses, likely blathered about it for enough time as to be distracting and come across like a clear loon.) > > And, of course, to the Trump voter, Trump has said that Biden is corrupt and evil and Trump is the President and an honest person. Thus, Biden is corrupt and evil, and it’s the job of the President to track down and stop evil people. > > The assumption that the 40% of the population who support Trump are living in the real world and can be convinced by reasonable arguments is silly. If the Republicans in Congress all act like this is above-board and the President is saying that it is above board, then the people will buy it. There will be no stop for a sanity check in the brain between ear and voting-finger. > > You need to hit Trump with everything, from Epstein, to Trump Foundation, to Trump University, to the Otaiba emails, to Mamadov, Elliott Broidy’s bribery conviction, George Nader’s pedophilia conviction, and so on. You need to make the dude look as scummy as he is or you’re not going to get anywhere - so long as you have actual, decent evidence from reputable people on those topics, FBI agents, CIA agents, ex-military, and Republicans. It should be an all-Republican witness stand. Lead with Peter Strzok and ask him who he was supporting in the 2016 primaries. Layer the Republican-ness and military background of every single person who says anything out and then use real live testimony from those people to trash the guy on every single angle that you can cram in that checks the boxes. > > Anything less than that and they’ll break loose. You’re not going to win this on a single thing. Any one thing can be escaped. You need to paint the whole picture and introduce doubt in the minds of those watching before even getting to Ukraine. That should be the last 2% of the case. You need to set the scene. Whether any of Trump’s other activities are one of the official articles of impeachment or not, you need to contend with the immense wall of ignorance that surrounds Trump’s supporters and that the Republicans are desperately trying to keep in place. They will tell you that cat is spelled “d-o-g” if that’s what it takes to keep the wall up. You need to make them feel such intense disgust in themselves that they break. If they can maintain the act, the people will assume that there must be something that they’re missing, but they’ll trust their Republican representatives as knowing more than them. > > If you can’t break that, it will be a constitutional crisis and you might as well set the thing on fire…but that’s already where we’re at. > > In the movie Grave of the Fireflies, there is a scene where our protagonist learns that the Japanese were never going to win WWII and that the radio reports saying that everything were going wonderful and that the country was steadily getting their foes to give in and run away had all been falsehoods. He’s been suffering for years, starving, and all thinking that while hard at least it was a necessary part of the war effort that they were winning and that it would bring, eventually, great riches to the land. …And none of that was true. It was just falsehoods, knowingly spread by the government to deceive the people and keep them from rebelling. > > That sort of shock is what the Democrats have to impart. It is not, “Yes, Donald Trump scribbles outside of the lines in order to win.” His voters know that and they like that. Trump is a marvelous bastard and that’s commendable. If that’s the pitch, it will not sell. > > You need to go beyond that. You need the FBI history of investigations into Donald Trump and his businesses, from before he was President. This ^ this ^ this. As someone else noted, republicans are already saying they are completely fine with Trump’s strong arming Ukraine for personal profit. This may be the last best chance to air Trump’s long history of corruption before pardons make it all moot. ---
**Author:** ![Fiveyearlurker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/da6949/32.png) [@Fiveyearlurker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiveyearlurker)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2019, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771/3765 "2019-11-04T01:21:46Z")
Trump is [stating that the testimony will be doctored](https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1191155326743195648), and that Republicans need to release their own version of the interviews. Man, those interviews must be pretty damning. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2019, 3:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771/3766 "2019-11-04T03:34:30Z")
> [@Fiveyearlurker](#): > > Trump is [stating that the testimony will be doctored](https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1191155326743195648), and that Republicans need to release their own version of the interviews. Man, those interviews must be pretty damning. What a twit. Does he not realize that when they give open testimony, they will repeat the same things that Twitler says were doctored? Does he think that if what is released does not match what they said that they won’t say anything? This administration is like a Don Knotts movie. ---
**Author:** ![cmosdes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a587f6/32.png) [@cmosdes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmosdes)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2019, 4:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771/3767 "2019-11-04T04:05:41Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > What a twit. Does he not realize that when they give open testimony, they will repeat the same things that Twitler says were doctored? Does he think that if what is released does not match what they said that they won’t say anything? This administration is like a Don Knotts movie. Unless, of course, the testimony was doctored. ---
**Author:** ![MulderMuffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muldermuffin/32/2862_2.png) [@MulderMuffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MulderMuffin)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2019, 5:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771/3768 "2019-11-04T05:40:50Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > Yeah, the attempt to find the whistleblower seems pretty hard to defend in the same organization that has created all of the laws in the land to protect the identities of whistleblowers so as to prevent retaliation and intimidation tactics from being used against them. Speaking of the whistleblower, wasn’t there a report a few weeks ago that a second whistleblower had stepped forward? I haven’t heard anything about that since the initial news reports back then… ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2019, 10:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771/3769 "2019-11-04T10:16:59Z")
With Trump’s treasons and crimes obvious, this thread is focusing on the mentality of Trumpists and other Republicans who condone the crimes. Apropos of this, a [comment by “Common Dream”](https://www.rawstory.com/2019/11/historian-explains-what-binds-trumps-extremely-rich-and-desperately-poor-supporters-together/) may help describe and prescribe: > [@](#): > > What I struggle with understanding is how Trump, who is so self-evidently incompetent, morally repulsive, and biased in favor of the rich, holds onto his support among the white working-class and religious voters who attend his rallies and cheer hysterically for their hero. Sometimes pro-rich Republican Party elected officials and the wealthy and corporate interests they represent do mildly challenge Trump’s erratic foreign, domestic, and economic policies, but they always seem to swallow good sense, self-interest, and personal pride, to stay in the Trump fold. Understanding Trump’s hold on his supporters is key to building a coalition and a platform that can defeat Trump and retake American government and society. > … It is not sufficient to dismiss Trump’s working-class legions as racist misanthropes or crackpots, although I believe many are, or wealthy Trumpers as just out to pad their pockets at everyone else’s expense. I think what unifies such a strange coalition is the appeal of the slogans ‘Make America Great Again’ and ‘America First.’ > > The Trump voter is a football fan rooting for the home team. ‘American First’ is about winning the game at any cost, whatever the consequences, even if it means spying on the other team’s practices, deflating the footballs, or undermining the game. After all, what’s the big deal and everybody cheats. The goal is to win, not to kiss your sister. > … What binds Trump’s extremely rich and economically struggling supporters together are their cynical beliefs about the motives of others. They think everyone else is out to steal what is rightfully theirs, whether it is great wealth or a small house with a lousy job, and that ‘liberals’ have an unrealistic view of human nature, which permits them to welcome refugees and undocumented immigrants and to help Blacks and the undeserving who only want to grab away what they have. Get advantage for yourself; protect what you have; use the government to promote your personal business interest. That is the way the game is played. Meanwhile, rightwing religious leaders can ignore everything immoral that Trump does because, after all, we are all sinners and God works in strange ways. > > A successful Democratic candidate in 2020 will have to challenge the perception that they are loony liberal eggheads without a sense of reality and with contempt for ordinary people, the reincarnation of Walter Mondale, Michael Dukakis, Al Gore, John Kerry, and Hilary Clinton. Detailed position papers and pledges to share a beer at the local watering hole are not going to cut it. > > The candidate will have to be sharp about class divisions and be nasty… ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2019, 1:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771/3770 "2019-11-04T13:17:06Z")
> [@cmosdes](#): > > Unless, of course, the testimony was doctored. And in the 100 trillion to 1 chance that it was doctored? It comes out in the open testimony. “Witness X, you said in your deposition that Individual 1 promised aid for Ukraine on the condition that it come up with dirt on Joe Biden. Is that true?” “No, I said no such thing. Individual 1 is the bestest and innocentest person to ever walk the planet, including Jesus Christ. Individual 1 said that he would be happy to aid Ukraine with no conditions whatsoever.” If that happens, we’ll say it was doctored. If on the other hand, the witness says “Yes, he brought up investigating the Bidens six more times in that call” then that blows that theory. ---
**Author:** ![Fiveyearlurker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/da6949/32.png) [@Fiveyearlurker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiveyearlurker)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2019, 1:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771/3771 "2019-11-04T13:30:55Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > What a twit. Does he not realize that when they give open testimony, they will repeat the same things that Twitler says were doctored? Does he think that if what is released does not match what they said that they won’t say anything? This administration is like a Don Knotts movie. Well, he’s still railing against a whistle blower for false testimony that has already proven true, which has worked with his base, so why wouldn’t he believe this would work? ---
**Author:** ![MeanJoe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/meanjoe/32/5693_2.png) [@MeanJoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MeanJoe)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2019, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771/3772 "2019-11-04T14:36:25Z")
> [@Fiveyearlurker](#): > > Well, he’s still railing against a whistle blower for false testimony that has already proven true, which has worked with his base, so why wouldn’t he believe this would work? Seriously, my in-laws are Trump supporters in rural Ohio. It is working with them. They’re lining up behind every changing defense and narrative spun by Trump and the GOP. The whistleblower is lying. It doesn’t matter that the WH’s own transcript proves he is not lying. It does not matter that additional witnesses/testimony corroborates the whistleblower’s claim - they’re all a part fo the same liberal conspiracy to un-do the election. These people are immune to logic and facts. They will not EVER move from their position, until Trump changes the position, and then they’ll line back up behind him in the new spot and pretend they never stood in another line. ---
**Author:** ![MulderMuffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muldermuffin/32/2862_2.png) [@MulderMuffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MulderMuffin)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2019, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771/3773 "2019-11-04T16:56:47Z")
> [@MeanJoe](#): > > Seriously, my in-laws are Trump supporters in rural Ohio. It is working with them. They’re lining up behind every changing defense and narrative spun by Trump and the GOP. The whistleblower is lying. It doesn’t matter that the WH’s own transcript proves he is not lying. It does not matter that additional witnesses/testimony corroborates the whistleblower’s claim - they’re all a part fo the same liberal conspiracy to un-do the election. > > These people are immune to logic and facts. They will not EVER move from their position, until Trump changes the position, and then they’ll line back up behind him in the new spot and pretend they never stood in another line. Then you have my in-laws, who accept the possibility that there is a grain of truth in the silo full of facts, but don’t care because the alternative to Trump is a commie liberal Democrat. “So what if he’s a liar, so what if he did any of the things he’s accused of, at least he’s not a liberal. _They’re_ the ones who will ruin America.” I think if there was any alternative Republican they’d eventually admit that Trump is a bad idea, but the RNC isn’t holding any primaries. > [@](#): > > In February 2019, the Republican National Committee voted to provide undivided support to the incumbent president, Donald Trump. Various states have decided to cancel their primaries and caucuses. I wonder if they will or even can reverse course on that… ---
**Author:** ![MulderMuffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muldermuffin/32/2862_2.png) [@MulderMuffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MulderMuffin)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2019, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771/3774 "2019-11-04T17:49:56Z")
The Yovanovich deposition transcript has been released. I can’t open it on my phone because the file is too large, as I suspect it would be with 10 hours of testimony. > **[Yovanovitch transcript.pdf](https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Q4N41e3Aq3GGAEn-yOmiKol09j0TVWZo/view)** > > Google Drive file. ETA NPR has the testimony transcript in a scrolling reader box on their site. > **[READ: Former Ukraine Ambassador Yovanovitch's Testimony To Congress](https://www.npr.org/2019/11/04/776075849/read-former-ukraine-ambassador-yovanovitchs-testimony-to-congress)** > > Marie Yovanovitch was recalled from her position as U.S. ambassador to Ukraine earlier this year amid what she called a "concerted campaign" against her, led by President Trump. ---
**Author:** ![Balance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ccd318/32.png) [@Balance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Balance)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2019, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771/3775 "2019-11-04T18:16:52Z")
> [@steatopygia](#): > > This may be the last best chance to air Trump’s long history of corruption before pardons make it all moot. An interesting phrasing I stumbled across while looking something else up in the Constitution: > [@U.S. Constitution](#): > > The President…shall have power to grant reprieves and pardons for offenses against the United States, except in cases of impeachment. Like everything else about impeachment, it’s a bit vague. I’m not a legal or Constitutional scholar, and it probably just means that the pardon power isn’t a get-out-of-impeachment-free option, but it could be fun to argue that the pardon power cannot be used in relation to any crime for which an official has been impeached. ---
**Author:** ![ThelmaLou](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thelmalou/32/390_2.png) [@ThelmaLou](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ThelmaLou)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2019, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771/3776 "2019-11-04T18:54:21Z")
> [@Balance](#): > > An interesting phrasing I stumbled across while looking something else up in the Constitution: > > Like everything else about impeachment, it’s a bit vague. I’m not a legal or Constitutional scholar, and it probably just means that the pardon power isn’t a get-out-of-impeachment-free option, but it could be fun to argue that the pardon power cannot be used in relation to any crime for which an official has been impeached. That sounds to me like the President can’t issue a pardon if someone else gets impeached. I doubt if it has anything to do with the President getting impeached. No doubt a Constitution scholar will show up in a minute and explain. @RealObama, where are you? ---
**Author:** ![Fiddle\_Peghead](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fiddle_peghead/32/3506_2.png) [@Fiddle\_Peghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiddle_Peghead)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2019, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771/3777 "2019-11-04T20:23:56Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > Is there any quantity of certifiably true data, both in variety and in completeness, which would convince you otherwise? > > That is to say, do you believe that this is true because of _reality_ or **because your mind refuses to contemplate the horror of the reality of living on a planet where nearly everyone is slightly above the level of a talking dog?** What, are you a mind-reader? How on earth did you nail my thought process so accurately?! Please take that in the absolutely kidding manner that it is intended. But isn’t that a bit strange of a question to just throw out at someone you don’t even know? But as I said, I think most people are reasonably intelligent, and to add to that, can be convinced of the truth of something if they are willing to listen. Some are not willing to do so, so you can never convince them, but that is more stubborness than stupidity. The rest are the truly stupid ones. The ones who do listen to logical arguments and still don’t get it. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2019, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771/3778 "2019-11-04T20:39:33Z")
Interesting gossip about the other Whistleblowers from the American branch of the British “The Spectator”: [https://spectator.us/seven-whistleblowers-jared-kushner-bin-salman/](https://spectator.us/seven-whistleblowers-jared-kushner-bin-salman/) > [@](#): > > According to Cockburn’s source about the seven whistleblowers, there’s more. It is that Kushner (allegedly) gave the green light to MBS to arrest the dissident journalist, Jamal Khashoggi, who was later murdered and dismembered in the Saudi consulate in Istanbul. A second source tells Cockburn that this is true and adds a crucial twist to the story. This source claims that Turkish intelligence obtained an intercept of the call between Kushner and MBS. And President Erdogan used it to get Trump to roll over and pull American troops out of northern Syria before the Turks invaded. I recall that there was at least one other such article from this journal before. I will have to try and find it to see whether it proved true… ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2019, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771/3779 "2019-11-04T20:42:07Z")
> [@Fiddle\_Peghead](#): > > But as I said, I think most people are reasonably intelligent, and to add to that, can be convinced of the truth of something if they are willing to listen. And I think that the Golden Number theory of beauty is a crock. That doesn’t answer the question which I asked. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2019, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771/3780 "2019-11-04T20:52:03Z")
Cockburn’s sources don’t look too reliable: > **[Mueller vs Barr, and the battle to indict Trump](https://thespectator.com/topic/mueller-barr-battle-indict-trump/)** > > Cockburn hears that Mueller wants to indict the President but Barr doesn’t – while the two men agree that Trump’s children should be charged Ah well. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771.md?page=188) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771.md?page=190)