# The Trump Impeachment Inquiry **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [September 24, 2019, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771 "2019-09-24T20:23:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 215
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2019, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771/4281 "2019-11-13T21:36:59Z")
> [@steronz](#): > > … an anonymous whistleblower. … Are we still pretending he’s anonymous here? ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2019, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771/4282 "2019-11-13T21:39:07Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Are we still pretending he’s anonymous here? I’m sorry, has his or her identity been confirmed beyond a reasonable doubt in a court of law? ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2019, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771/4283 "2019-11-13T21:41:16Z")
> [@steronz](#): > > I’m sorry, has his or her identity been confirmed beyond a reasonable doubt in a court of law? I’m sorry but I cannot confirm or deny that it’s Kelly Ann Conway. ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2019, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771/4284 "2019-11-13T21:41:17Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Are we still pretending he’s anonymous here? Well, I have no idea what his/her identity is. And I can’t see why it matters, everything from the initial whistle-blowing has been admitted or otherwise substantiated. It could have started by my pet poodle randomly hitting keys on my computer, but the allegations have been established beyond any doubt. The only question now is what the consequence should be. ETA: Also, whistleblowers have a legal right to remain anonymous, so it does seem fair to mention that now and then. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2019, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771/4285 "2019-11-13T21:42:03Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > I don’t know why you’re shocked. Weeks ago, **iiandyiiii** asked this: > > And here was my answer then: “It looks like there was shady shit” – uh yeah, right. There has not been any evidence at all that there were any illegal acts committed by the Bidens – they apparently didn’t even violate Ukrainian laws, so it beggars belief that this is somehow within our jurisdiction. Bribery is a crime in the US, but again, there’s an absence of proof; the only thing that seems certain is that the president abused his power to pressure the Ukrainian leadership to conduct an investigation into a matter that had largely been resolved, at least according to Ukrainians. ---
**Author:** ![Locrian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/locrian/32/14146_2.png) [@Locrian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Locrian)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2019, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771/4286 "2019-11-13T21:43:27Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > I’m sorry but I cannot confirm or deny that it’s Kelly Ann Conway. I’m still thinking it’s Kato Kaelin. 😃 Would that really surprise anyone at this point? ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2019, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771/4287 "2019-11-13T21:47:01Z")
Trump does more “shady shit” by 10 am than, well, anybody, ever. But **HD and Nunes** are awake all night worried about the Bidens. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2019, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771/4288 "2019-11-13T21:47:01Z")
> [@Aspenglow](#): > > … [Republicans received Russian money funneled through the NRA in support of their campaigns](https://www.npr.org/2019/09/27/764879242/nra-was-foreign-asset-to-russia-ahead-of-2016-new-senate-report-reveals). (NPR) Hard to nail this one down since Republicans have blocked further investigation, but roughly 30 million dollars was donated via the NRA to Republicans and Trump in 2016 – significantly more than they had ever donated in any past election. … The NRA “donated” relatively little money to Republicans and Trump in 2016 (roughly $1M). Most of their money was spent on independent expenditures ($54M). [source](https://www.opensecrets.org/orgs/summary.php?id=d000000082&cycle=2016) ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2019, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771/4289 "2019-11-13T21:48:34Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Are we still pretending he’s anonymous here? Maybe you can first explain the Trump supporter point of view that the whistleblower simultaeously knows nothing that isn’t hearsay but also must be called to testify on the things that he supposedly doesn’t know anything about. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2019, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771/4290 "2019-11-13T21:50:55Z")
> [@steronz](#): > > I’m sorry, has his or her identity been confirmed beyond a reasonable doubt in a court of law? We use the “beyond a reasonable doubt” standard in criminal cases to establish the guilt of the accused. It’s not typically the standard we use to establish basic facts. ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2019, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771/4291 "2019-11-13T21:51:55Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Maybe you can first explain the Trump supporter point of view that the whistleblower simultaeously knows nothing that isn’t hearsay but also must be called to testify on the things that he supposedly doesn’t know anything about. It appears their “point of view” is simply to discourage future whistle blowers. There must be dozens of them watching how this shakes out ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2019, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771/4292 "2019-11-13T21:51:59Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Maybe you can first explain the Trump supporter point of view that the whistleblower simultaeously knows nothing that isn’t hearsay but also must be called to testify on the things that he supposedly doesn’t know anything about. I’m pretty sure the Republicans want to call him to testify about his collusion with Schiff’s staff and his political motives / biases / history. ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2019, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771/4293 "2019-11-13T21:53:42Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > We use the “beyond a reasonable doubt” standard in criminal cases to establish the guilt of the accused. It’s not typically the standard we use to establish basic facts. Do we have _any_ evidence that would meet _any_ standard to establish who the whistle blower is? I don’t visit Brietbart’s web site, so maybe I missed it. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2019, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771/4294 "2019-11-13T21:54:09Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > What about the rest? Are the rest simply Trump fans? > [@QuickSilver](#): > > All those who stay are moral cowards and deplorable sycophants. You answered your own question. And I agree. But I still think there is a non-zero number of Republican Senators who are beholden to Putin for … reasons… ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2019, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771/4295 "2019-11-13T21:54:32Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > We use the “beyond a reasonable doubt” standard in criminal cases to establish the guilt of the accused. It’s not typically the standard we use to establish basic facts. Is that a no? I asked you a fair question. ---
**Author:** ![Buck\_Godot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/buck_godot/32/6573_2.png) [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2019, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771/4296 "2019-11-13T21:55:35Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > Trump does more “shady shit” by 10 am than, well, anybody, ever. But **HD and Nunes** are awake all night worried about the Bidens. But if there is the slightest possibility that the child of someone in a high public office gained a career advantage by their relationship to their father, it must be rooted out. [After all no Republican would ever consider such a thing](https://apnews.com/2ffd383b26d24597aa4aefbf4e5def48). ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2019, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771/4297 "2019-11-13T21:58:00Z")
> [@Airbeck](#): > > Don’t forget that they pretty much all got money from the NRA, and we now know where the NRA was getting a lot of that money. “a lot”? LOL! No. A minuscule fraction. [$2,513 (rounding up) last I heard](https://www.politico.com/story/2018/04/11/nra-russia-money-guns-516804). ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2019, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771/4298 "2019-11-13T21:59:01Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Maybe you can first explain the Trump supporter point of view that the whistleblower simultaeously knows nothing that isn’t hearsay but also must be called to testify on the things that he supposedly doesn’t know anything about. This is nothing more nor less than a mob bosses lawyer wanting to know the identity of someone in a witness protection program DURING THE INVESTIGATION, before anything goes to court. Just for innocent purposes though. To see if the witness is somehow compromised because they know a police officer or something. Right. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2019, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771/4299 "2019-11-13T22:00:26Z")
> [@steronz](#): > > Is that a no? I asked you a fair question. It was a silly nonsensical question without any relevance to anything. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2019, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771/4300 "2019-11-13T22:02:36Z")
> [@Aspenglow](#): > > I understand your incredulity, but in fact there are more bits of evidence to support a sizeable number of Republicans being compromised by Russians, wittingly or unwittingly, than many realize. > > [Republicans received Russian money funneled through the NRA in support of their campaigns](https://www.npr.org/2019/09/27/764879242/nra-was-foreign-asset-to-russia-ahead-of-2016-new-senate-report-reveals). (NPR) Hard to nail this one down since Republicans have blocked further investigation, but roughly 30 million dollars was donated via the NRA to Republicans and Trump in 2016 – significantly more than they had ever donated in any past election. > > Former House member Pete Sessions received a sizeable campaign contribution from Lev Parnas’s shell company, Fraud Guarantee, with a “request” to write a letter to Mike Pompeo to ask for removal of Ukraine Ambassador Marie Yovanovich. The source of the money is purported to be Russian. Additionally, Lev Parnas and Igor Fruman made numerous donations to GOP members at various times through several shell companies, including Fraud Guarantee and Loan Crime Investigation Group, among others. Documented donations flowed to Kevin McCarthy, 20 Republican state parties and others in 2016. > > [Here](https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-news/guiliani-lev-parnas-fraud-guarantee-897618/) is an article that details those donations. (Rolling Stone) > > Lastly, don’t overlook the 200 million dollar investment made to the State of Kentucky by Oleg Deripaska, the pro-Russian Ukrainian oligarch, in exchange for Moscow Mitch’s shepherding of legislation that allowed lifting of sanctions against Deripaska’s company, Rusal. [Link](https://www.politico.com/story/2019/08/02/russia-pr-braidy-aluminum-1445259). (Politico) > > A lot of Republicans are in it up to their eyebrows with the Russians. Indeed, this has been long and well-established. The Russians have hacked our political system and the infection runs deep. As I wrote last May: > [@](#): > > This is why you CAN NOT simply view this with a focus on Trump. You must understand the big picture: there is a clear relationship not just between Russian interests and Trump; there is a clear relationship between Russian oligarchy and the Republican party, which represents the billionaire class. > > Of course Trump represents a kind of existential threat in and of himself. People have repeatedly looked at Trump as a kind of caricature, which is why people have repeatedly underestimated him. It is absolutely true that his ignorance abounds when it comes to the Constitution, foreign affairs, economics, and all the things that we would expect a president to know, or at least take an interest in learning quickly. And for that reason many people have written him off as being dangerous because of his idiocy, and I won’t disagree with that. But Donald Trump is, by nature, an authoritarian, who behaves the way any authoritarian leader anywhere on the planet would behave, and that is something you cannot afford to underestimate or write off and dismiss as good for a few Saturday Night Live laughs. This is deadly serious business we are talking about here. Trump may be ignorant as sin, but over his lifetime he has studied how human networks and how power among people works - he understands power. He understands who has power and who doesn’t, and he understands how to grab power and use it as a weapon. He may not understand the machinery of the Constitution, but on a primitive level, he understands the human animal, and for that reason, he is extremely dangerous. > > But referring back to the subject about which Ruth May writes, Trump is also dangerous because he is an agent of chaos. Putin was probably as surprised as the rest of us that Trump actually won against Hillary Clinton, but even if he fell short, Putin’s intelligence operations and foreign policy specialists had been studying the United States for years and he knew that a strong Trump campaign organized around certain types of nationalistic themes could disrupt American democracy. Putin knew he couldn’t defeat the US externally; he sought to make us bleed internally, which is why he has used his network of oligarchs to support the likes of Cocaine Mitch, because somewhere along the way, he spotted a weakness, and that weakness is that Republicans identify with oligarchy – A LOT. > > Putin must have also realized somewhere along the way that even in free societies, tribalism can work, because tribalism relates to questions about perceptions of identity, security, equality. Putin realized that a lot of conservative white Americans tend to value their own freedom but not necessarily everyone else’s, and that is something that could be exploited. Understand that Putin will push the Republicans to drive this wedge much, much further than where it is now, because Putin has seen how polarization can tear societies to pieces. They, like the rest of us, saw how Milosevic and Karadzic turned the former Yugoslavia into an ethnic bloodbath, which is why the Russians have invested in a ethno-nationalist propaganda machine there today. > > I’m afraid our problems run much, much deeper than just Trump. We have a Russian oligarchy with nation-state power that is essentially trying to destroy American democracy **so that things like the Magnitsky Act and territorial integrity become essentially unenforceable**. They have infiltrated our political system in a major way, and they have probably infiltrated our political system and even our national security apparatus in ways we cannot begin to imagine. The bold is what Taylor spoke of today. Here’s another ominous question: just how far has Russia made its way into our political system? Because it now seems beyond clear that Russian interests are being carried under the auspices of our Department of Justice through Bill Barr. We also know that through Giuliani, Barr, and others, Russian interests have successfully undermined the Department of State. As we’ve learned, there is now a parallel foreign policy, a de facto state department which operates according to the special interests of the president and his close political allies. **Keep in mind that this is being defended by Republicans in Congress with full knowledge of what they’re defending.** Why should we assume that they’ve stopped there? I think we should also assume that the Russian influence has also probably made its way into the United States military. What if there’s a Bill Barr type general or two in the military? What if there’s a shadowy Giuliani type figure secretly directing military policy to suit Russian interests over our own national interests? I mean, isn’t that why Bolton is out? The military is the ultimate lever of power. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771.md?page=214) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771.md?page=216)