# The Trump Impeachment Inquiry **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [September 24, 2019, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771 "2019-09-24T20:23:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 226
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2019, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771/4501 "2019-11-14T18:20:24Z")
BREAKING (AP) — AP source: 2nd US embassy official overheard President Trump’s call with Sondland about need for Ukraine investigations. > ---
**Author:** ![Buck\_Godot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/buck_godot/32/6573_2.png) [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2019, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771/4502 "2019-11-14T18:22:52Z")
> [@Skywatcher](#): > > Corollary: Getting caught with your hand in the cookie jar is perfectly okay as long as you have yet to take any cookies. Or the cookies belong to a Democrat. ---
**Author:** ![Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b487fb/32.png) [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walken_After_Midnight)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2019, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771/4503 "2019-11-14T18:25:59Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > The crime is bribery: > > [It’s No Accident That Democrats Keep Accusing Trump Of ‘Bribery’](https://talkingpointsmemo.com/news/democrats-bribery-impeachment-pelosi-schiff) > > Bribery is mentioned in the Constitution as a specific reason for impeachment. The evidence so far (including the transcript released by the White House) indicates that Trump was attempting to bribe the Ukrainians into making a public announcement meant to damage a political rival. It’s more like extortion than bribery, since bribery does not necessarily suggest coercion, while extortion does, but bribery is explicitly mentioned in the Constitution as a ground for impeachment. From Section 4 of Article Two of the United States Constitution: “The President, Vice President and all civil Officers of the United States, shall be removed from Office on Impeachment for, and Conviction of, Treason, Bribery, or other high Crimes and Misdemeanors.” ---
**Author:** ![sps49sd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@sps49sd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sps49sd)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2019, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771/4504 "2019-11-14T18:27:38Z")
> [@Fiveyearlurker](#): > > I ask this in all honesty, and just a simple question. I won’t even argue against the answer, because I just want to understand the thought process. > > What difference does the whistlelblower’s intentions or motivations make? > > For the sake of argument, let’s say that this whistleblower is a card carrying Democrat who loves Joe Biden. He has been lying in wait for the opportunity to take down the Trump administration because he hates them. He is 100% politically motivated. > > How does that change anything at all? To make the worst possible analogy for the Democrats case here, if drug dealer #1 reports another drug dealer #2 for dealing drugs because he wants drug dealer #2 out of the way, do the police have to let drug dealer #2 off the hook? What does the motivation of the person reporting the crime have to do with the underlying crime itself? My understanding- and I’m sure 6+ Dopers will correct any misapprehension- is there is a concern that Schiff held discussions with the whistleblower and then denied it. Also, the identity could help settle whether the person actually heard anything or is repeating what others have said. ETA: if this was covered in the previous 4,200+ posts, I apologize for having missed it. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2019, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771/4505 "2019-11-14T18:29:19Z")
> [@JohnT](#): > > BREAKING (AP) — AP source: 2nd US embassy official overheard President Trump’s call with Sondland about need for Ukraine investigations. > > [https://twitter.com/jpaceDC/status/1195021456557707265?s=19](https://twitter.com/jpaceDC/status/1195021456557707265?s=19) Yeah, but one of them is named Suriya Jayanti. Sounds like one of those Democrat-type names. Can’t trust anyone with tries to Democrats and Ukraine. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2019, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771/4506 "2019-11-14T18:30:05Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Regarding “Trump is also a very bad president”, I disagree. My taxes have been cut and the economy is booming. Anyone can have it good… until the credit bill is due. > **[Despite Trump's promises, deficit soars in 2019](https://www.msnbc.com/rachel-maddow-show/despite-trumps-promises-deficit-soars-2019-msna1295676)** > > As the budget deficit tops $1 trillion, these aren't exactly the fiscal results Donald Trump promised the electorate before his election. > [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > ISIS is defeated (at least to the extent that their leadership is dead and they no longer effectively control territory in Iraq or Syria). Not helped by the bumbling of the president > **[Abandoned by withdrawing U.S., Kurds turn to Assad and Russia as ISIS...](https://www.cbsnews.com/news/turkey-syria-incursion-kurds-isis-detainees-escape-sdf-alliance-bashar-assad-russia-today-2019-10-14/)** > > America's former allies in the fight against ISIS have been forced to seek help from Syria's Kremlin-backed dictator as Turkey invades > [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > The courts are getting filled with judges and justices that respect the Constitution. Nope, just more incompetents and bigoted as Trump. > **[Senate Rushing to Confirm Trump Judges Who Back Voter Suppression](https://www.americanprogress.org/article/senate-rushing-confirm-trump-judges-back-voter-suppression/)** > > President Trump is picking lawyers and judges for lifetime seats on the federal courts who back voter suppression. > [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > North Korea is no longer launching missiles over Japan (and yes, I’m aware that a SLBM landed in Japan’s EEZ a couple of weeks ago). Yes, I’m aware that some do think that North Korea helping themselves to testing missiles elsewhere makes it ok then. :rolleyes: > [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Efforts are underway to curb illegal immigration. In a very inhumane way and he is also[limiting \*\*legal \*\*immigration](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tXqnRMU1fTs), putting the lie on Trump that he is not opposed to the legal one either. > [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Overall, I think his record as president has been rather decent, surprisingly good, in fact. I’m comfortably part of [the ~44%](https://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/other/president_trump_job_approval-6179.html) that approve of the job President Trump is doing. Actually, 42% [How Popular Is Donald Trump? | FiveThirtyEight](https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/trump-approval-ratings/voters/) And decent? that is to laugh. [https://thehill.com/homenews/administration/469462-trump-ordered-to-pay-2m-in-settlement-over-trump-foundation-lawsuit](https://thehill.com/homenews/administration/469462-trump-ordered-to-pay-2m-in-settlement-over-trump-foundation-lawsuit) > [@](#): > > President Trump has been ordered to pay $2 million to nonprofit groups as part of a settlement in a lawsuit alleging he used his charity’s funds for personal and political means. > > The New York Supreme Court ordered Trump to pay $2 million in damages as part of a settlement stemming from a June 2018 civil lawsuit filed by the state attorney general’s office against him, his three eldest children and the Trump Foundation that alleged violations of campaign finance law. The dispute centers on $2.8 million raised by the Trump Foundation at an Iowa fundraiser for military veterans during the 2016 campaign cycle. > > Manhattan Supreme Court Justice Saliann Scarpulla ruled Thursday that the money was used for Trump’s campaign and disbursed by his campaign staff rather than by the charity itself. > [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Many of the remaining things that you see as “obvious” are not obvious to me. Well, your opinion dude… 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2019, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771/4507 "2019-11-14T18:32:00Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > Questions: > > 1, In this scenario, is the CEO entitled to find out who WB is during the investigation? Even if he just wants to use him in a PR battle in the media, and accuse WB of “secret partisan bias” > 2. Is the CEO entitled to find out who WB is during the trial, assuming that WB is not called by the prosecution as a witness (after all, WB did not directly witness anything.) > 3. If the CEO has forbidden his employees to cooperate with the police investigation, can he be charged with other crimes such as obstruction of justice? > 4. Is it appropriate at this point in the investigation for the Police Chief to get involved, and tell the investigators what to do? In my opinion, [ol][li]No[/li][li]No[/li][li]Yes[/li][li]My opinion depends on whether I think the Chief can do a fair job under those circumstances, which depends on my character judgement, which depends on his or her personal history.[/ol][/li] ~Max ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2019, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771/4508 "2019-11-14T18:32:18Z")
> [@sps49sd](#): > > My understanding- and I’m sure 6+ Dopers will correct any misapprehension- is there is a concern that Schiff held discussions with the whistleblower and then denied it. Also, the identity could help settle whether the person actually heard anything or is repeating what others have said. > > ETA: if this was covered in the previous 4,200+ posts, I apologize for having missed it. What would be the relevance of such a thing, even if it’s accurate? It has nothing to do with the facts of the allegations against Trump. ---
**Author:** ![Sterling\_Archer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f1d935/32.png) [@Sterling\_Archer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sterling_Archer)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2019, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771/4509 "2019-11-14T18:42:26Z")
Why aren’t the Republicans using this tactic? (Maybe they are saving it) “YES he wanted Ukraine to investigate the Biden’s, it has nothing to do with the election. Biden may be the candidate, he may not be, but if corruption happened in the past, that’s what we are investigating, and he doesn’t become immune to that just because he might be the candidate.” All of this “no quid pro quo” stuff is just a ridiculous smokescreen. Obviously the military aid money was held up. Obviously he asked them to investigate, heck he asked China too, on national TV. Their arguments so far have been total garbage, this one seems the least ludicrous as far as I can see. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2019, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771/4510 "2019-11-14T18:45:31Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > By delving into how totally not unreasonable it is for Trump to ask for investigations for specific individuals, you are defending a form of corruption Max S. It’s not an anti corruption probe if you are only asking to investigate your opponents. I generally agree, except in case the only people that law enforcement needs foreign assistance with happen to be political opponents. Nevertheless, if we were to impeach Mr. Trump for selectively investigating his political opponents while claiming to run a general corruption probe, I would need evidence of the administration declining to act on eg: tips of corruption for political allies. For example, Justice Dept. staffers might testify “we got some tips on RNC wrongdoing but the order came from higher up not to pursue”. Something like that, and I would want heads to roll, too. It’s also a little difficult because in a sense, everybody not related to Mr. Trump is an opponent. And so far as I know he hasn’t shut down an investigation of a family member. Himself maybe, but that’s a _wholly_ different subject. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2019, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771/4511 "2019-11-14T18:49:27Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > Actually, 42% [How Popular Is Donald Trump? | FiveThirtyEight](https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/trump-approval-ratings/voters/) Correction, that was the likely voters poll, on the general polling from 538 Agent Orange has a 41.2% approval right now. > **[How Popular Is Donald Trump?](https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/trump-approval-ratings/?ex_cid=rrpromo)** > > FiveThirtyEight is tracking Donald Trump’s approval ratings throughout his presidency. And the latest Ipsos poll from November 12-13 shows a 39% approval vs 58% disapproval. ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2019, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771/4512 "2019-11-14T18:54:22Z")
> [@Sterling\_Archer](#): > > Why aren’t the Republicans using this tactic? (Maybe they are saving it) > > “YES he wanted Ukraine to investigate the Biden’s, it has nothing to do with the election. Biden may be the candidate, he may not be, but if corruption happened in the past, that’s what we are investigating, and he doesn’t become immune to that just because he might be the candidate.” They are using that. I recall a question to Bill Taylor from Jim Jordan yesterday, along the lines of “Should we not investigate someone just because they’re running for office? We’re all politicians here, we’re all always campaigning, does that mean that we should never be investigated for anything?” Bill Taylor, trying to process the relevance of any of this, finally said, simply, “Nobody is above the law.” I thought it was a poignant response from Taylor, the irony being absolutely lost, I’m sure, on every Republican in the room. Although part of my wishes he had said, “Why not get the FBI to investigate him then?” ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2019, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771/4513 "2019-11-14T18:54:39Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > Nevertheless, if we were to impeach Mr. Trump for selectively investigating his political opponents while claiming to run a general corruption probe, I would need evidence of the administration declining to act on eg: tips of corruption for political allies. So to be guilty of one crime, a defendant has to commit two? 😕 ---
**Author:** ![drad\_dog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@drad\_dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drad_dog)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2019, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771/4514 "2019-11-14T18:56:26Z")
> **[Impeachment, Day One: Republicans weaponize nihilism, defend Trump, destroy...](https://www.salon.com/2019/11/14/impeachment-day-one-republicans-weaponize-nihilism-defend-trump-destroy-reality/)** > > It's Atticus Finch vs. Cthulhu in the showdown of the century. GOP's bold defense of Trump: LOL, nothing matters “Impeachment, Day One: Republicans weaponize nihilism, defend Trump, destroy reality **It’s Atticus Finch vs. Cthulhu in the showdown of the century. GOP’s bold defense of Trump: LOL, nothing matters** ” ---
**Author:** ![enipla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/54ee81/32.png) [@enipla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enipla)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2019, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771/4515 "2019-11-14T18:57:24Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > …Nevertheless, if we were to impeach Mr. Trump for selectively investigating his political opponents while claiming to run a general corruption probe, I would need evidence of the administration declining to act on eg: tips of corruption for political allies. For example, Justice Dept. staffers might testify “we got some tips on RNC wrongdoing but the order came from higher up not to pursue”. Something like that, and I would want heads to roll, too.~Max So he’s only guilty of his crimes if he ordered staff to not investigate his crimes. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2019, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771/4516 "2019-11-14T19:02:44Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > So to be guilty of one crime, a defendant has to commit two? 😕 I’m sorry, I don’t understand. The crime would be singular, abusing his authority to selectively enforce the law. There might be multiple _counts_ so to speak, but just one crime. Directing law enforcement officials to ignore valid tips would be an element of the crime, but not necessarily a required element. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2019, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771/4517 "2019-11-14T19:03:01Z")
So, something from the outside: “I see #FedSoc2019 is going on today. Sorry to be missing their presentation on 6th Amendment rights.” [https://twitter.com/Popehat/status/1194988075220254720?s=19](https://twitter.com/Popehat/status/1194988075220254720?s=19) Comment: > [@](#): > > Cop: “Sir, do you know why I pulled you over?” > > Lawyer: “I refuse to participate in this unlawful witch hunt. You are denying me of my 6th Amendment rights to call witnesses in my defense and to have a public trial” > > Cop: “You must be in town for #FedSoc2019, it’s 2 blocks down” I bring this up because lawyers all over Twitter are spending their day debunking HD’s 6th-amendment talking points (it’s _the_ thing today!), so we can just copy their better arguments as ours. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2019, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771/4518 "2019-11-14T19:08:16Z")
> [@enipla](#): > > So he’s only guilty of his crimes if he ordered staff to not investigate his crimes. I don’t agree with that statement either. Either I have made a mistake and contradicted myself, or you have misread me. I think, if I were to summarize the post you quoted in that form, I would say “So he’s only guilty of selectively investigating political opponents if evidence shows that he caused law enforcement to drop investigations of not-political-opponents.” There’s more nuance but that’s basically what I’m thinking. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2019, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771/4519 "2019-11-14T19:08:33Z")
> [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](#): > > [_AP_](https://apnews.com/6d318542e50b45dc9e1d4d829ad36c96?utm_campaign=SocialFlow&utm_medium=AP_Politics&utm_source=Twitter): > > [Speaker Pelosi](https://twitter.com/kylegriffin1/status/1195036174563213312): > [@](#): > > "The devastating testimony corroborated evidence of bribery uncovered in the inquiry and that the president abused power and violated his oath. > … > “If the president has something that is exculpatory — Mr. President, that means do you have anything that shows your innocence — then he should make that known … So far, we haven’t seen that, but we welcome it.” I felt the heat from that burn so badly I need some first aid over here. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2019, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771/4520 "2019-11-14T19:11:42Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > I’m sorry, I don’t understand. The crime would be singular, abusing his authority to selectively enforce the law. There might be multiple _counts_ so to speak, but just one crime. Directing law enforcement officials to ignore valid tips would be an element of the crime, but not necessarily a required element. You argued that for the kangaroo court investigation of Biden to be invalid, Trump should be shown to have stopped a valid investigation of an ally. That’s nonsense. If I rob a bank, I don’t also have to invest the proceeds in drugs (or whatever other corrupt endeavor) in order to be guilty of robbing a bank. ETA: alternatively, in light of your further explanation, you’re arguing that I’m only really guilty of bank robbery if it can be shown that I decided against robbing the gas station down the street. The first crime has nothing to do with the second non-crime. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771.md?page=225) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771.md?page=227)