# The Trump Impeachment Inquiry **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [September 24, 2019, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771 "2019-09-24T20:23:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 27
**Author:** ![Lance\_Turbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lance_turbo/32/6156_2.png) [@Lance\_Turbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lance_Turbo)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2019, 12:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771/521 "2019-09-26T12:34:20Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > This is (part of) the reason that I stick around: the patently absurd theories that get bandied about here. You check this one out. It’s almost too absurd to be taken seriously. > [@Please explain to me why this Trump/Ukraine thing is a big deal](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-explain-to-me-why-this-trump-ukraine-thing-is-a-big-deal/840633/17): > > It seems to me that President Trump was trying to remedy the wrong of Biden using his official position and the threat of withholding aid money to Ukraine to protect his son from an investigation by the Ukranian prosecutor. **Sherrerd** ’s post seems to me slanted to ignore Hunter (and Joe) Biden’s wrongdoing. At least, that’s how it seems to me from a first pass of what’s been released so far. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2019, 12:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771/522 "2019-09-26T12:35:35Z")
That’s interesting, as I thought the committees only had access to the complaint later in the day on Wednesday. This morning I heard that Ben Sasse found it very troubling, and Jackie Speier (D) calls it nothing less than explosive. Hopefully, we shall see soon enough. Interesting that the Ukraine call came the day after Mueller’s testimony. I can just imagine DJT saying “Ha! They didn’t pin Russia on me, I can go ahead and get help from this new Ukrainian president. Who cares if I get caught, I’ll just call it a witch hunt.” ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2019, 12:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771/523 "2019-09-26T12:46:02Z")
> [@JKellyMap](#): > > Tiny hint of Republican cooperation: > “Mr. Romney was not entirely alone. Senator Ben Sasse, Republican of Nebraska and a member of the Senate Intelligence Committee, emerged from reading the whistle-blower complaint and urged both parties not to rush to “partisan tribalism.” His own party, he said, “ought not be rushing to circle the wagons and say there’s no there there, when there’s obviously a lot that is troubling there,” while Democrats should not jump to conclusions on impeachment.” > — NY Times Romney and Sasse have been vocal critics of Trump in the past. You need to have 20 (or 21 if Manchin votes to acquit as he could and maybe would) of the 53 Senate Republicans to decide to vote to convict. In a trial with rules decided upon by the majority. How many _more_ of those 53 do you think will go against both leadership that demands wagon circling and the large numbers of Trumpists within their own states? ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2019, 12:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771/524 "2019-09-26T12:49:05Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > Shit is getting real, really fast. The complaint has been declassified and we’ll soon be able to see a redacted version. NO Republican who has read the report has come out and said something other than it’s very troubling. The dam has broken. > > The White House thought the phone call log was exculpatory? Because he doesn’t say the magic words quid pro quo? We all know that prior to last week, Donald had never heard the term and probably thought quid pro quo was an Italian seafood dish. From what I’ve heard, the phone log is just a tip of the iceberg. > > My prediction, by Christmas at the latest, we’ll have a president whose name begins with a P. A translation of “quid pro quo” is “favor”… and Trump _did_ ask for _that_. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2019, 12:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771/525 "2019-09-26T12:52:06Z")
If I’m a Republican, I’m looking at this as a golden opportunity. None of them have any love for Donald, despite what they say. I’ve heard it said before any of this broke that if they held the trial in the Senate and voted by secret ballot, 30 of them would vote to convict. Now they have a chance to quit dealing with this idiot, and this Ukraine scandal gives them the perfect cover. They may not like Pence either, but he’s not batshit crazy. ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2019, 12:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771/526 "2019-09-26T12:52:19Z")
[Whistleblower complaint](https://intelligence.house.gov/uploadedfiles/20190812_-_whistleblower_complaint_unclass.pdf) ---
**Author:** ![John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_stamos_left_ear/32/3198_2.png) [@John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Stamos_Left_Ear)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2019, 12:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771/527 "2019-09-26T12:56:11Z")
> [@JKellyMap](#): > > Tiny hint of Republican cooperation: > “Mr. Romney was not entirely alone. Senator Ben Sasse, Republican of Nebraska and a member of the Senate Intelligence Committee, emerged from reading the whistle-blower complaint and urged both parties not to rush to “partisan tribalism.” His own party, he said, “ought not be rushing to circle the wagons and say there’s no there there, when there’s obviously a lot that is troubling there,” **while Democrats should not jump to conclusions on impeachment**.” > — NY Times Emphasis mine. Even when they are capitulating they still have to throw in some bothsiderism shade. There are a lot of liberals who would say that accusing Pelosi of rushing anything is laughable. And as far as I know not a single Democrat in the House has expressed any conclusions - they’re pretty glad that we finally have an investigation for impeachment, but that’s not a conclusion. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2019, 12:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771/528 "2019-09-26T12:59:08Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > [Whistleblower complaint](https://intelligence.house.gov/uploadedfiles/20190812_-_whistleblower_complaint_unclass.pdf) Summing up the two most major accusations, by my reading: 1. Trump pressured Ukrainian officials to investigate a political rival (the Biden family), and look for DNC servers that Trump believes Ukraine may have access to (for some unknown reason), specifically mentioning the Ukraine officials should work with Giuliani and AG Barr. 2. WH officials recognized the potential damage of the notes/transcript of this call, and attempted to hide it by moving it to different (more classified/restrictive) computer servers, contrary to the accepted purpose of those servers (i.e. national security related info, not possibly-politically-damaging info). 1 was clear from the “transcript” provided by the WH; 2 appears new to me. ---
**Author:** ![Aspenglow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aspenglow/32/76_2.png) [@Aspenglow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aspenglow)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2019, 1:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771/529 "2019-09-26T13:01:39Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > \ > > My prediction, by Christmas at the latest, we’ll have a president whose name begins with a P. I see what you did there. 😉 I’m not sure that Pence is going to escape unscathed, and neither are you. I think this is the end of Barr as well, and maybe Mulvaney and Mnuchin. It’s too much to hope that Pompeo will be swept up, but he’ll be substantially defanged. These people are terrifying. There is simply no law they won’t break in furtherance of their agenda. ---
**Author:** ![bobot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bobot/32/21622_2.png) [@bobot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bobot)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2019, 1:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771/530 "2019-09-26T13:02:17Z")
Yes, 2 certainly is. Thanks for sharing that. ---
**Author:** ![Fiveyearlurker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/da6949/32.png) [@Fiveyearlurker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiveyearlurker)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2019, 1:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771/531 "2019-09-26T13:07:24Z")
So, today we learn that white house officials knew exactly how bad that call was, because they immediately sought to hide it (the report is out). Weird thing to do for a totally innocent call, right? And, interestingly, apparently this isn’t the first time that documents were hidden. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2019, 1:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771/532 "2019-09-26T13:07:58Z")
Footnote 3 in the whistleblower complaint: “I do not know why the president associates these servers with Ukraine.” 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2019, 1:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771/533 "2019-09-26T13:08:09Z")
> [@Annoyed](#): > > I love how the left loses an election based solely on bad policy, unlikable candidates, and hardcore leftism, learns nothing from that, quadruples their leftward slide, and goes on to openly attack a sitting president and his voters by-proxy and expects to win the next election - all the while screaming about how “divisive” this president is. > > Really is a sight to behold. They had it by the balls with Obama in term one and have steadily declined ever since - all the while learning nothing. > [@Annoyed](#): > > Maybe. I’m still 50/50. As we have seen in 2016 it’s almost impossible to gauge. Everyone reads and believes their preferred media, polling is all over the place. > > The counter is true also: if the left had just become sane adults they wouldn’t have lost 2016, and in the time being since then, their national gaslighting helps no one other than their hardcore base. Elections are all about fence sitters and independents. Hard to see how that demo will fall. > > It’s a hard sell to the electorate though. A vote for the left is a vote for increased taxes and socialism, and that’s generally received as quite unpopular. A vote for the right is lower taxes, employment, economy, and taking care of citizens first and foremost. > [@Annoyed](#): > > What that equates to is taxing the shit out of everyone over $100k/year. > > And it still wouldn’t pay for it all. > > What you guys want to do would quite literally crush most of the income earners and businesses in the country. Everyone - These, and subsequent replies are hijacks so please drop them in this thread. The same goes for discussions about the ACA, and general tax discussion. [/moderating] ---
**Author:** ![John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_stamos_left_ear/32/3198_2.png) [@John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Stamos_Left_Ear)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2019, 1:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771/534 "2019-09-26T13:09:54Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > Romney and Sasse have been vocal critics of Trump in the past. > > You need to have 20 (or 21 if Manchin votes to acquit as he could and maybe would) of the 53 Senate Republicans to decide to vote to convict. In a trial with rules decided upon by the majority. > > How many _more_ of those 53 do you think will go against both leadership that demands wagon circling and the large numbers of Trumpists within their own states? I linked to a handful of Twitter accounts that spell things out for how Democratic leadership have been planning. I suggest people read them. However [here is an encapsulation](https://twitter.com/blakesmustache/status/1176587117578862592) from one which answers what Pelosi, et al, have been working towards: > [@](#): > > The goal is not simply to impeach; the goal is to saddle the Senate with an ironclad case that forces them to either convict Trump or be exposed as aiding and abetting a compromised/criminal POTUS. > > House Dems were building toward a crescendo in November, but they were prepared to go earlier if Trump presented them with ample reason. As Pelosi has been saying, Trump was liable to “self-impeach” (i.e, step in shit) before they could finish investigating him. And it happened. > > It will take time to break through the stonewalling and get the whistleblower evidence. They need the complaint itself and they need to investigate it. There will be hearings with multiple witnesses. All in, this might take 2-3 months or even longer. > > In the meantime, House Dems will continue building the OTHER part of their case, the one they’ve been working on since April. Namely, they will continue litigating their subpoenas seeking Trump’s financial records from his tax advisors (Mazars) and his bankers (Deutsche Bank). > > Trump will appeal both cases to SCOTUS and seek a “stay” to prevent the documents from being turned over while he appeals. This could take a little while, but there’s a good chance SCOTUS refuses the cases (~Nov/Dec) or takes the cases and decides them quickly (~Dec/Jan). > > Once that is done, Mazars/Deutsche Bank will comply with the subpoenas and turn over the documents. No, Barr’s DOJ can’t stop them. Mazars/DB are private companies and are not subject to DOJ control. And, no, Mazars/DB won’t destroy the documents or refuse to turn them over. > > What [they] will find, and I’m 100% sure they already know this better than I do, is that Trump is a tax fraud and virtually his entire fortune (however large or small it may actually be) has come from bribes and money laundering for Russian oligarchs and Saudi royals. > > Taking these bribes and laundering this money means Trump is a big time criminal. Perhaps more importantly though, it means he’s hopelessly compromised by and beholden to foreign powers. This simply cannot be allowed. He MUST be removed from office. > > This double whammy will land in McConnell’s lap: a whistleblower complaint likely showing Trump extorted a foreign country and ironclad evidence that Trump is a massively compromised criminal. > > The rats WILL flee this sinking ship. > > The Senate WILL convict Trump. Please note this Twitter thread was from two days ago and things are moving fast, but since Pelosi has specifically pointed out how six distinct committees have investigations and that anyone getting access to taxes and other Trump business documents seem to be the only thing that worries Trump (and though he can delay, the least likely he can actually stop even with lapdog Barr and a Republican senate doing his bidding), this line of thinking seems likely. It also explains why Pelosi pulled the trigger when she did and why she didn’t start a new committee to handle everything. I lack the confidence of Uncle Blazer that it will work out and even [he concedes in the thread](https://twitter.com/blakesmustache/status/1176602237004595202) that “I know what you’re thinking: “But that means Trump will keep setting the world on fire!” That’s correct. He will. We can try to resist him or even stop him in other ways, but we CAN’T remove him from office any quicker. We just can’t. I’m sorry, but it’s true.” But if the goal of the House is to send something to Moscow Mitch that is so devastating on several fronts that only the ~25% of Americans who will never turn on Trump still stand by him, the dynamics will change. And so will the math. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2019, 1:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771/535 "2019-09-26T13:10:56Z")
> [@JohnT](#): > > A translation of “quid pro quo” is “favor”… and Trump _did_ ask for _that_. First I believe that a sitting president asking a foreign power to investigate a political rival for him, to work with that sitting president’s personal attorney/political hack in that process, is very impeachable whether or not there was any implied threat or reward made for the cooperation of that foreign power. But the point of quid pro quo is the favor granted _in return_ for something. Trump’s defender are stating that there was no explicit threat by the leader of the most powerful country in the world that American _protection_ from something bad happening to this nice little country he has here that you wouldn’t want anything to happen to, was dependent on this personal favor being done for the Don, no clear statement of outright extortion, just clearly implied extortion. So it is fine. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2019, 1:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771/536 "2019-09-26T13:11:16Z")
More on the whistleblower complaint: "There was immediate follow-up from U.S. officials after Trump’s call with Zelensky. After the July 26 call, several U.S. officials (U.S. Special Representative for Ukraine Negotiations Kurt Volcker and U.S. Ambassador to the EU Gordan Sondland) met with Zelensky and other Ukrainian political officials where, according to the complaint, they reportedly gave advice about how to “navigate” Trump’s requests. Giuliani also conducted extensive follow-up. On August 2, Giuliani met with one of Zelensky’s advisers in Madrid, in what the whistleblower said was characterized as “direct follow-up” to Trump’s call about the “cases” they talked about. The whistleblower also said that they were told by U.S. officials that Giuliani privately reached out to a number of other Zelensky advisors. Ukrainian leadership believed that a call with Trump was contingent on being willing to “play ball” on Giuliani’s requests for investigations. Giuliani had been encouraging Ukrainian officials for months to pursue investigations into alleged Ukrainian interference in the 2016 election and the Bidens. According to the whistleblower, state department officials spoke to Giuliani to “contain the damage” to national security, but Ukrainian leadership was “led to believe” that a call with Trump depended on willingness to “play ball” on the issues that Giuliani was pushing." From here: [What Went Down In Maguire’s Whistleblower Testimony | FiveThirtyEight](https://fivethirtyeight.com/live-blog/dni-whistleblower-testimony/) ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2019, 1:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771/537 "2019-09-26T13:14:23Z")
It’s really more extortion than quid pro quo. To me, quid pro quo implies a trade that both people want because it benefits both of them, whereas this is just “hey, I’m going to withhold this military funding that you’re expecting and that you need to defend the very existence of your country unless you play ball” I mean, sure, there’s a quid pro quo in there (trading investigations for military aid) but the extortion is the more important part of that transaction. ---
**Author:** ![Ann\_Hedonia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ann_hedonia/32/319_2.png) [@Ann\_Hedonia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ann_Hedonia)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2019, 1:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771/538 "2019-09-26T13:16:24Z")
Here’s a direct link to the complaint. [https://intelligence.house.gov/uploadedfiles/20190812\_-\_whistleblower\_complaint\_unclass.pdf](https://intelligence.house.gov/uploadedfiles/20190812_-_whistleblower_complaint_unclass.pdf) I’m still reading it but I thought I’d take a break to post the link. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2019, 1:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771/539 "2019-09-26T13:17:09Z")
> [@Annoyed](#): > > What that equates to is taxing the shit out of everyone over $100k/year. Cite? :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2019, 1:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771/540 "2019-09-26T13:18:12Z")
Classic extortion racket. Trump & Co. are about as subtle as a bag of hammers. And as smart. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771.md?page=26) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771.md?page=28)