# The Trump Impeachment Inquiry **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [September 24, 2019, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771 "2019-09-24T20:23:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 347
**Author:** ![bengangmo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/50afbb/32.png) [@bengangmo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bengangmo)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2020, 3:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771/6921 "2020-01-20T03:15:40Z")
> [@ThelmaLou](#): > > I guess anything can be subpoenaed. I don’t see him or anyone at the WH turning anything over in response to one. Subpoenas can be ignored, 'cause they’re just plain mean! I guess what I’m trying to ask (badly I might add) I get that Trump won’t release documents or respond to a subpoena, however - are there any documents from “supporting agencies” that could do an end run around his refusal or don’t fall under the control of the executive? ---
**Author:** ![Superdude](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/superdude/32/13450_2.png) [@Superdude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Superdude)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2020, 5:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771/6922 "2020-01-20T05:39:36Z")
> [@BigAppleBucky](#): > > [Trump’s Defense Team Calls Impeachment Charges ‘Brazen’](https://www.nytimes.com/2020/01/18/us/politics/house-trump-impeachment.html) > > Impeachment is unconstitutional? Really? Did James Madison, George Mason, Alexander Hamilton et al. made a major mistake when they included Section 4 in Article II of the US Constitution? > As Johnnie Cochran, Alan Dershowitz’s fellow OJ Simpson defense team member, might have said: “If that’s the argument you make, it must be fake.” They signed it with their fingers crossed ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2020, 9:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771/6923 "2020-01-20T09:41:52Z")
“Whatever the government can commit, you must acquit!” ---
**Author:** ![DesertDog](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/desertdog/32/11503_2.png) [@DesertDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DesertDog)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2020, 11:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771/6924 "2020-01-20T11:51:42Z")
> [@BigAppleBucky](#): > > [Trump’s Defense Team Calls Impeachment Charges ‘Brazen’](https://www.nytimes.com/2020/01/18/us/politics/house-trump-impeachment.html)Impeachment is unconstitutional? Really? Did James Madison, George Mason, Alexander Hamilton et al. made a major mistake when they included Section 4 in Article II of the US Constitution? Well, as I’ve pointed out before, Induhvidual 1 _claimed during the campaign_ that the [14th Amendment was unconstitutional](https://www.politico.com/story/2015/08/donald-trump-bill-oreilly-interview-121515), so color me unsurprised. ---
**Author:** ![ThelmaLou](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thelmalou/32/390_2.png) [@ThelmaLou](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ThelmaLou)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2020, 12:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771/6925 "2020-01-20T12:48:27Z")
> [@bengangmo](#): > > I guess what I’m trying to ask (badly I might add) > I get that Trump won’t release documents or respond to a subpoena, > however - are there any documents from “supporting agencies” that could do an end run around his refusal or don’t fall under the control of the executive? That’s a good question. IOW are there documents NOT under the control of the WH that could be subpoenaed? Probably. But then can’t trump just forbid those places to turn them over the way he has forbidden different people and agencies to cooperate with any investigations? I guess the question is, are there relevant and helpful documents that are beyond the reach of the president’s tiny fat fingers? ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Duality](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.duality/32/4098_2.png) [@Mr.Duality](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Duality)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2020, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771/6926 "2020-01-20T23:20:15Z")
Ken Starr and Alan Dershowitz are whores. "Alan Dershowitz, who helped negotiate a secretive deal for the billionaire pedophile to avoid federal prosecution, has appeared on Fox News more than 70 times since news of that 2008 deal broke. Not once was he asked about Epstein or the plea deal a judge recently declared unconstitutional. But Dershowitz isn’t the only member of Epstein’s legal team who has repeatedly gotten a pass from Fox News: famed prosecutor Kenneth Starr, who also helped negotiate the illegal Epstein deal, is a paid Fox News contributor who makes regular appearances across the network." From[https://www.thedailybeast.com/fox-news-hasnt-asked-ken-starr-a-paid-contributor-about-the-sweetheart-deal-he-brokered-for-jeffrey-epstein](https://www.thedailybeast.com/fox-news-hasnt-asked-ken-starr-a-paid-contributor-about-the-sweetheart-deal-he-brokered-for-jeffrey-epstein) ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2020, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771/6927 "2020-01-21T14:16:06Z")
> [@DesertDog](#): > > Well, as I’ve pointed out before, Induhvidual 1 _claimed during the campaign_ that the [14th Amendment was unconstitutional](https://www.politico.com/story/2015/08/donald-trump-bill-oreilly-interview-121515), so color me unsurprised. Where in that article does he claim that the 14th Amendment is unconstitutional? He states that he takes the minority viewpoint that birthright citizenship in not part of that amendment. Nowhere does he make the absurd claim that the title of the article says he does. ETA: birthright citizenship for those here illegally ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2020, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771/6928 "2020-01-21T14:20:41Z")
> [@Mr.Duality](#): > > Ken Starr and Alan Dershowitz are whores. > > "Alan Dershowitz, who helped negotiate a secretive deal for the billionaire pedophile to avoid federal prosecution, has appeared on Fox News more than 70 times since news of that 2008 deal broke. Not once was he asked about Epstein or the plea deal a judge recently declared unconstitutional. > > But Dershowitz isn’t the only member of Epstein’s legal team who has repeatedly gotten a pass from Fox News: famed prosecutor Kenneth Starr, who also helped negotiate the illegal Epstein deal, is a paid Fox News contributor who makes regular appearances across the network." > > From[https://www.thedailybeast.com/fox-news-hasnt-asked-ken-starr-a-paid-contributor-about-the-sweetheart-deal-he-brokered-for-jeffrey-epstein](https://www.thedailybeast.com/fox-news-hasnt-asked-ken-starr-a-paid-contributor-about-the-sweetheart-deal-he-brokered-for-jeffrey-epstein) What does any of this even mean? So they worked as criminal defense attorneys. I am a criminal defense attorney. I guess if you are a really bad criminal, then nobody should represent you or if you represent a really bad criminal you must be a really bad guy. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2020, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771/6929 "2020-01-21T14:24:03Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > Where in that article does he claim that the 14th Amendment is unconstitutional? He states that he takes the minority viewpoint that birthright citizenship in not part of that amendment. Nowhere does he make the absurd claim that the title of the article says he does. > > ETA: birthright citizenship for those here illegally That viewpoint is directly contrary to the explicit language of the 14th. It specifically says that anyone born in the US is a citizen. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2020, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771/6930 "2020-01-21T14:24:58Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > What does any of this even mean? So they worked as criminal defense attorneys. I am a criminal defense attorney. I guess if you are a really bad criminal, then nobody should represent you or if you represent a really bad criminal you must be a really bad guy. It has nothing to do with them “being criminal defense attorneys” and everything to do with FoxNews ignoring something they would absolutely lose their shit over had someone associated with the Clintons done it. Also, Dershowitz and Starr are involved with the Trump defense and have been perfectly happy to claim as legitimate behaviors that they claimed were impeachment-worthy when Clinton was in office. So yes, they’re whores and hypocrites, and FoxNews are just fine with that. ---
**Author:** ![Lightnin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lightnin/32/180_2.png) [@Lightnin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lightnin)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2020, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771/6931 "2020-01-21T14:36:46Z")
I’m very irritated that I’ve got today off due to having some donated furniture picked up, but there’s no Trump impeachment proceedings being televised. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2020, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771/6932 "2020-01-21T14:48:53Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > That viewpoint is directly contrary to the explicit language of the 14th. It specifically says that anyone born in the US is a citizen. Not quite. > [@14th Amendment](#): > > All persons born or naturalized in the United States, **and subject to the jurisdiction thereof** , are citizens of the United States and of the state wherein they reside. The “subject to the jurisdiction thereof” language has led some legal scholars to dispute the birthright citizenship idea for children of those born here when their mother was here illegally. Now, I’m not trying to hijack the thread, and let’s assume that that position is absolutely incorrect. By subscribing to the belief, it does not suggest, mean, or otherwise come close to the ridiculous assertion that the person is saying that the Fourteen Amendment is Unconstitutional as that headline and the prior poster declared. If I believe that flag burning is not protected by the First Amendment, you cannot say that I think the First Amendment is unconstitutional. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2020, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771/6933 "2020-01-21T14:50:24Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > It has nothing to do with them “being criminal defense attorneys” and everything to do with FoxNews ignoring something they would absolutely lose their shit over had someone associated with the Clintons done it. > > Also, Dershowitz and Starr are involved with the Trump defense and have been perfectly happy to claim as legitimate behaviors that they claimed were impeachment-worthy when Clinton was in office. > > So yes, they’re whores and hypocrites, and FoxNews are just fine with that. Again, you may disagree with them, but they are saying that a crime is necessary for impeachment and even if Trump did everything they said he did, there is no crime. Clinton committed a crime. Maybe that makes them wrong, but it doesn’t make them whores. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2020, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771/6934 "2020-01-21T14:56:17Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > Again, you may disagree with them, but they are saying that a crime is necessary for impeachment and even if Trump did everything they said he did, there is no crime. “No crime”. Well, the GAO says withholding aid from Ukraine was a crime. as have various other legal opinions. And of course Trump and Barr withholding subpoenaed evidence and directing subpoenaed witnesses not to testify are also crimes. I am aware the GOP claim there is no crime, but then the GOP say a lot of things that are orthogonal to the truth. ---
**Author:** ![BeepKillBeep](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/9e8a1a/32.png) [@BeepKillBeep](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BeepKillBeep)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2020, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771/6935 "2020-01-21T15:01:22Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > Again, you may disagree with them, but they are saying that a crime is necessary for impeachment and even if Trump did everything they said he did, there is no crime. Clinton committed a crime. > > Maybe that makes them wrong, but it doesn’t make them whores. Yup, Republicans sure do believe there has to be a crime to think about impeaching a president. > **[Efforts to impeach Barack Obama](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Efforts_to_impeach_Barack_Obama)** > > During Barack Obama's tenure as President of the United States from 2009 to 2017, certain Republican members of Congress, as well as Democratic congressman Dennis Kucinich, stated that Obama had engaged in impeachable activity and that he might face attempts to remove him from office. Rationales offered for possible impeachment ranged from Obama allowing people to use bathrooms based on their gender identity, to the 2012 Benghazi attack, to Obama's enforcement of immigration laws, and false T... It is a very pretty fig leaf, I’ll give you that, but it is just a fig leaf to give people like you something to save face for when you vote for a criminal president. Oh, also Trump committed, at a minimum, bribery, which last I checked was a crime. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2020, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771/6936 "2020-01-21T15:41:57Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > The “subject to the jurisdiction thereof” language has led some legal scholars to dispute the birthright citizenship idea for children of those born here when their mother was here illegally. That’s an utterly ridiculous basis for a dispute. We can see on a daily basis that illegal immigrants are “subject to the jurisdiction thereof” in the US. They get subjected to US jurisdiction probably hundreds of times per day, around the US. > [@](#): > > Again, you may disagree with them, but they are saying that a crime is necessary for impeachment and even if Trump did everything they said he did, there is no crime. Yes there is, and their prior statements support this. They are hypocrites for having made so many statements before that conduct like Trump’s is criminal, but now suddenly it’s not. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2020, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771/6937 "2020-01-21T15:59:45Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > That’s an utterly ridiculous basis for a dispute. We can see on a daily basis that illegal immigrants are “subject to the jurisdiction thereof” in the US. They get subjected to US jurisdiction probably hundreds of times per day, around the US. But you agree that making a stupid argument about an amendment does not mean that you are arguing that the amendment is “unconstitutional”? ---
**Author:** ![BeepKillBeep](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/9e8a1a/32.png) [@BeepKillBeep](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BeepKillBeep)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2020, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771/6938 "2020-01-21T16:09:36Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > But you agree that making a stupid argument about an amendment does not mean that you are arguing that the amendment is “unconstitutional”? This is always one my favorite Trumpist arguments as it gives me a good laugh. Trump is so stupid we shouldn’t take the things he says seriously. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2020, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771/6939 "2020-01-21T16:12:58Z")
> [@BeepKillBeep](#): > > This is always one my favorite Trumpist arguments as it gives me a good laugh. Trump is so stupid we shouldn’t take the things he says seriously. You must have meant to quote someone else, because that’s not what I said at all. Not even close. ---
**Author:** ![BeepKillBeep](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/9e8a1a/32.png) [@BeepKillBeep](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BeepKillBeep)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2020, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771/6940 "2020-01-21T16:18:39Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > You must have meant to quote someone else, because that’s not what I said at all. Not even close. No, definitely meant to quote you. Out of curiosity, do you think Trump has done anything wrong during his presidency? If so, what? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771.md?page=346) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771.md?page=348)