# The Trump Impeachment Inquiry **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [September 24, 2019, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771 "2019-09-24T20:23:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 351
**Author:** ![Lance\_Turbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lance_turbo/32/6156_2.png) [@Lance\_Turbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lance_Turbo)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2020, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771/7001 "2020-01-24T16:32:53Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > All of this goalpost shifting keeps going on in any Trump thread. Other posters said that Trump was guilty of bribery and extortion. It seems then that it is pretty reasonable to define bribery and extortion and doing so is not “semantic.” Then define bribery and extortion and proceed from there. Trump is guilty of bribery by any reasonable definition. Trump is guilty of extortion by an reasonable definition. Trump is guilty of corruption by any reasonable definition. The terms, when reasonably defined, are not mutually exclusive so there’s no need to pick just one. Go ahead and define those terms if that’s the game you want to play, but I suspect you have no actual interest in doing so. I’m guessing you’d rather play some version of your favorite game, “Where do we draw the line?” ---
**Author:** ![BeepKillBeep](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/9e8a1a/32.png) [@BeepKillBeep](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BeepKillBeep)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2020, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771/7002 "2020-01-24T16:46:42Z")
> [@Johnny\_L.A](#): > > Sharing. Me too. Love it!! ---
**Author:** ![Fiddle\_Peghead](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fiddle_peghead/32/3506_2.png) [@Fiddle\_Peghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiddle_Peghead)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2020, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771/7003 "2020-01-24T16:56:38Z")
> [@enipla](#): > > I don’t get it. There has been overwhelming evidences for years showing what a corrupt person Trump is. Yet people voted for him. And now, when the spotlight is on him, and the evidence is once again clear, people still defend him. While I could guess at why his base loves him, I really wouldn’t know how to divvy up the percentages as to why each person does. As to House reps and senators, if I had to guess I’d say quite a few of them dislike him just about as much as the average liberal, but know they have to support him or it could be the beginning of the end of the Republican party. This is not to excuse them, and in the end only makes them look so much worse. They know he is a reprehensible man, and a disaster in most areas as president, and yet don’t have the guts to put their country before party. > [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > If anyone asks you about Trump’s success tell them that his dad owned about a hundred buildings, most in high property value areas. Trump owns about five buildings, most on the edge of town, which he bought after dad died, using his money. > > The secret to success: Be in the will of someone who’s good with money. There is no doubt Trump profited because of who his father was, but this is a gross mischaracterization of Trump’s real estate holdings. Of the buildings he owns, Trump Tower and 40 Wall Street are hardly on the edge of town, and are worth $850+ million alone. He bought 40 Wall Street in 1995 for 1 million dollars. Today it’s worth 400 million! Surely Trump has had numerous failures as to his businesses, but to suggest he hasn’t made profits on his own isn’t the case. I don’t care who your dad is, you don’t get to own, fully or in part, [properties](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Trump_Organization#Selected_completed_properties) like these if you don’t know shit about real estate. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2020, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771/7004 "2020-01-24T17:16:01Z")
“[Vote against the President and your head will be on a pike](https://twitter.com/JustinPGoodman/status/1220547121478275074/video/1)”, Senators have allegedly been told by the White House. Nothing to see here. ---
**Author:** ![Translucent\_Daydream](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/translucent_daydream/32/16170_2.png) [@Translucent\_Daydream](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Translucent_Daydream)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2020, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771/7005 "2020-01-24T17:34:50Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > “[Vote against the President and your head will be on a pike](https://twitter.com/JustinPGoodman/status/1220547121478275074/video/1)”, Senators have allegedly been told by the White House. > > Nothing to see here. What’s the legality of that? I’m pretty sure if a mob boss pulled this shit on a jury trying him, it would be illegal. ---
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2020, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771/7006 "2020-01-24T17:58:34Z")
Now that’s jury tampering ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2020, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771/7007 "2020-01-24T17:59:37Z")
> [@Crane](#): > > Now that’s jury tampering “b-b-b-b-but Obama did it too!” ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2020, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771/7008 "2020-01-24T18:01:29Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > “[Vote against the President and your head will be on a pike](https://twitter.com/JustinPGoodman/status/1220547121478275074/video/1)” “Vote _for_ the president and your head will be on a pickerel.” ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2020, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771/7009 "2020-01-24T18:08:06Z")
> [@Fiddle\_Peghead](#): > > There is no doubt Trump profited because of who his father was, but this is a gross mischaracterization of Trump’s real estate holdings. Of the buildings he owns, Trump Tower and 40 Wall Street are hardly on the edge of town, and are worth $850+ million alone. He bought 40 Wall Street in 1995 for 1 million dollars. Today it’s worth 400 million! Surely Trump has had numerous failures as to his businesses, but to suggest he hasn’t made profits on his own isn’t the case. I don’t care who your dad is, you don’t get to own, fully or in part, [properties](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Trump_Organization#Selected_completed_properties) like these if you don’t know shit about real estate. Without commenting on my knowledge of real estate, I’ll note that I do understand the word “most”. And if you reference what I actually said, you’ll see that word used. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2020, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771/7010 "2020-01-24T18:37:49Z")
> [@Fiddle\_Peghead](#): > > He bought 40 Wall Street in 1995 for 1 million dollars. Today it’s worth 400 million! The trusted source for those numbers is…a Mr Donald J Trump. Astonishingly, the reality doesn’t quite match up. We don’t know what Trump paid for it, as that information has not been disclosed, but it changed hands for $8 million two years before Trump bought it. Some other relevant facts include that it required an estimated $100 million to convert the interior space into modern offices. Trump doesn’t actually own the building and only paid for the right to rent out the offices, he owes $50 million in mortgage payments and he’s apparently tried to inflate the market value of the property / rental space by lying about occupancy figures. ([Cite](https://www.propublica.org/article/trump-inc-podcast-never-before-seen-trump-tax-documents-show-major-inconsistencies)) Note also that it’s technically been on sale since 2003 expecting offers in excess of $300 million…there have been no takers. ([cite](https://www.cleaningservicenewyorkcity.com/clean-cut-history-of-wall-street.html)) I will say though, probably Trump will ultimately make money on this property. But there’s a big difference between that and trump’s reality ---
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2020, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771/7011 "2020-01-24T19:04:00Z")
The prosecutors are doing an excellent job of presentation, but who is the audience? Few senators seem interested. The Trumpsters I have talked to are concerned only about abortion, gun rights and not giving money to people who don’t work for it. They don’t care about the Ukraine and are in favor of anything that reduces foreign involvement. The audience then seems to be the voting public in general. They are setting up November to be a referendum on Trump. ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2020, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771/7012 "2020-01-24T19:34:38Z")
Weird. **UltraVires** is very active on the board for at least 6 hours now, with 30+ responses, including some taking Hunter Biden to task. But I haven’t seen him active in this thread now. Maybe asking again on a new page will help: > [@Hamlet](#): > > Just so I understand your position, if President Trump withheld Congressionally approved aid in a blatant attempt to get Ukraine to announce an investigation for purely political motives and then had people lie and refused to cooperate with the investigation or respond to lawful subpoenas, it would still be unimpeachable. > > Is that right? ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2020, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771/7013 "2020-01-24T20:58:29Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > The trusted source for those numbers is…a Mr Donald J Trump. > Astonishingly, the reality doesn’t quite match up. > > We don’t know what Trump paid for it, as that information has not been disclosed, but it changed hands for $8 million two years before Trump bought it. > Some other relevant facts include that it required an estimated $100 million to convert the interior space into modern offices. Trump doesn’t actually own the building and only paid for the right to rent out the offices, he owes $50 million in mortgage payments and he’s apparently tried to inflate the market value of the property / rental space by lying about occupancy figures. ([Cite](https://www.propublica.org/article/trump-inc-podcast-never-before-seen-trump-tax-documents-show-major-inconsistencies)) > > Note also that it’s technically been on sale since 2003 expecting offers in excess of $300 million…there have been no takers. ([cite](https://www.cleaningservicenewyorkcity.com/clean-cut-history-of-wall-street.html)) > > I will say though, probably Trump will ultimately make money on this property. But there’s a big difference between that and trump’s reality Whatever the cost, he’s still shrunk his dad’s business by somewhere in the range of 20X. Unless this one building is the size of 20 city blocks, the exact numbers are fairly irrelevant. I realize now that I also forgot the DC hotel. I’ll have to update my numbers but it should still be in the 20:1 territory. ---
**Author:** ![Fiddle\_Peghead](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fiddle_peghead/32/3506_2.png) [@Fiddle\_Peghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiddle_Peghead)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2020, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771/7014 "2020-01-24T21:06:17Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > Without commenting on my knowledge of real estate, I’ll note that I do understand the word “most”. And if you reference what I actually said, you’ll see that word used. Just to make sure I am not misunderstanding this, you know that I was saying that Trump doesn’t not “know shit about real estate” and nothing about your knowledge, right? ---
**Author:** ![Fiddle\_Peghead](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fiddle_peghead/32/3506_2.png) [@Fiddle\_Peghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiddle_Peghead)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2020, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771/7015 "2020-01-24T21:13:48Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > The trusted source for those numbers is…a Mr Donald J Trump. > Astonishingly, the reality doesn’t quite match up. > > … > > I will say though, probably Trump will ultimately make money on this property. But there’s a big difference between that and trump’s reality Thanks for the info. I relied on the Wiki page only for that info, and indeed only a brief search just now confirms it by far doesn’t tell the whole story. But despite the things you mention, I maintain that Trump has done very well for himself in the real estate business, and one would be better off find other things to criticize him for. There are more than enough things in that category. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2020, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771/7016 "2020-01-24T21:49:39Z")
> [@Fiddle\_Peghead](#): > > Just to make sure I am not misunderstanding this, you know that I was saying that Trump doesn’t not “know shit about real estate” and nothing about your knowledge, right? You said that I was misrepresenting the situation. During Fred’s life, he served as collateral for Trump Tower. Outside of that one building, every other building owned by Donald went into bankruptcy and by the time if his father’s death, he had brought himself at least into a debt of $2.5b. It is likely that he also had various legal liabilities due to SEC violations, fraud suit losses, etc. that add to that number. His buildings were all taken away from him and, I presume, he was made liable for some smaller amount than $2.5b but still, likely, something fairly large. Let’s assume $50m. A fair discount. If I remember correctly, he took a $200-300m loan from Deutsche and he liquidated his father’s business, which was composed of approximately 100 buildings totaling 27,000 apartments in New York City itself and, presumably, a greater number of buildings that aren’t just apartments. Fred’s wealth was divided among the children, so we can assume that Donald received about 1/5th of that fortune. If we assume that each of Fred’s buildings was worth something like $5m (in today’s money), then he’d have gained about another $100m there. So he’s down $50m and up $300-400m via loans and family death. He should have between $250m and $350m He purchases six more buildings, Mar-a-lago, 40 Wall Street, a golf resort in the South that I forget the location of, another one in California, the DC hotel, and the place in Scotland. If we assume that these are each worth $10m on average, then he has spent $60m. At this point, he seems to be out of money. This implies that he only had $60m, where we would expect him to have 4-5x that amount. But as said, he’s beleaguered by a history of bad business operation and legal issues and we have no strong reason to expect that he would change or have learned anything given that his last giant failures were when he was already in his 40s, so we should assume that he’s continuing to add to his debts through poor choices and new legal issues. That his new businesses seem to succeed may be some small indication that he has learned how to run things successfully. However, Donald seems to have discovered that he does have at least one talent that can be turned into money, which is to be entertaining. And spending time in Hollywood, he picks up the same no-business-acumen-necessary side business as everyone else they with a “name” and rent that name out. While busy in Hollywood, he lets others (e.g. Ivanka) manage his properties while he himself tries to figure out how to work fat jokes into episodes of the Apprentice. With Ivanka running things, his name earning a few million every year, and Apprentice earnings, he has possibly found a recipe for financial survival. But we note, for example, that he continues to regularly not pay money he owes. He yanks funding for people who are in legal jeopardy who could turn on him, like Michael Cohen, ensuring that he’s liable to end up in jail after leaving the Presidency. The fair indication would be that despite having achieved something which should have been a maintainable business, even for someone like him, he’s still managing to dip into the red regularly. And overall, one suspects that had he been good at business then Fred would have given him everything. So as it is, he did turn 100 buildings, in New York City, into a far smaller number, and the value of those buildings is not so great as to make that anything like a good turnout. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2020, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771/7017 "2020-01-24T23:18:11Z")
Sorry, the giant bankruptcy happened in the mid-oughts. Trump would have been around 60 years old, not in his 40s. ---
**Author:** ![Fiddle\_Peghead](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fiddle_peghead/32/3506_2.png) [@Fiddle\_Peghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiddle_Peghead)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2020, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771/7018 "2020-01-24T23:28:48Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > You said that I was misrepresenting the situation. Well, I think “Trump owns about five buildings, most on the edge of town”\* is\* a misrepresentation. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2020, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771/7019 "2020-01-24T23:30:55Z")
> [@Fiddle\_Peghead](#): > > Well, I think “Trump owns about five buildings, most on the edge of town”\* is\* a misrepresentation. I was counting 3 of 5. That was wrong. It’s 4 of 7, I believe. I’m going by memory, sorry. If someone else wants to calculate the correct number, who has more time, I won’t complain. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2020, 6:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771/7020 "2020-01-25T06:21:42Z")
> [@John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](#): > > Do you really not understand the difference between something that is in the National interest and something that is in his personal and political interest and actually hurts our national interests? > > It may be difficult to put a specific price tag on what it means to the president of the United States, but are you honestly saying you feel there is no value? Plus, remember that the America-hating fuckstick himself is on record with a claim that his name alone adds $3Bn in value. [Cite.](https://mobile.reuters.com/article/amp/idUSTRE7AK2IT20111121) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771.md?page=350) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771.md?page=352)