# The Trump Impeachment Inquiry **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [September 24, 2019, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771 "2019-09-24T20:23:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 86
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2019, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771/1701 "2019-10-03T19:07:55Z")
> [@Lance\_Turbo](#): > > Trump said those things on the south lawn of the White House as a result, [‘South lawn,’ is trending on Twitter](https://twitter.com/search?q=%22South%20Lawn%22&src=trend_click&pt=1179794925090680833). And the Republicans who refuse to believe that Trump has EVER asked a foreign government to investigate Biden will CONTINUE TO HOLD THAT BELIEF, even after Trump said these words. ---
**Author:** ![slash2k](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/439d5e/32.png) [@slash2k](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/slash2k)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2019, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771/1702 "2019-10-03T19:08:53Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > You sue the individual who actually violated your rights, and all of the people involved in such a violation, just as you would if the individual worked for the government. > > ~Max Most of the rights involved in a criminal investigation (such as search warrants, right to talk to an attorney, etc.) are rights you hold vis-a-vis the government and its agent and employees. If Rudy Guiliani is not an agent of the government while he is investigating you, what violations could you sue him for? ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2019, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771/1703 "2019-10-03T19:09:05Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > What USG position is “point man?” It’s not an official position, but special envoy is an informal diplomatic rank nonetheless. > [@Ravenman](#): > > Volker was appointed to an actual position in the government. Your attempt to confuse the issue is obvious. Is this really the debate style you want to portray yourself as adopting? It is the position I adopt, really. Volker was a volunteer despite being given an official position as special envoy. He was not an employee of the federal government. The president doesn’t need to bestow a personal representative with a special title or rank such as “United States Special Envoy to Ukraine”. He can quite literally pick any person off the street who is willing to represent him in a foreign country and send them off with as little as a letter of introduction, or a phone call saying “here is a really great guy who I want you to talk with about X”. If “X” is a legitimate foreign policy position, it’s fine. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2019, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771/1704 "2019-10-03T19:11:31Z")
> [@slash2k](#): > > Most of the rights involved in a criminal investigation (such as search warrants, right to talk to an attorney, etc.) are rights you hold vis-a-vis the government and its agent and employees. If Rudy Guiliani is not an agent of the government while he is investigating you, what violations could you sue him for? He was an agent of the government despite being a volunteer and holding no official post. The president effectively made him a special envoy. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2019, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771/1705 "2019-10-03T19:12:40Z")
You know, you keep arguing things, saying that you don’t believe some of the things you’re saying, and then adding more arguments. Can you clarify your intentions here: which of the things you’ve argued are your own opinions, and which ones are you playing devil’s advocate? I feel as though you’re hiding the ball at certain times. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2019, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771/1706 "2019-10-03T19:12:50Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > He was an agent of the government despite being a volunteer and holding no official post. The president effectively made him a special envoy. > > ~Max Just call a spade a spade. Guiliani is Trump’s Presidential Consigliere. ---
**Author:** ![Akaj](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/akaj/32/145_2.png) [@Akaj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Akaj)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2019, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771/1707 "2019-10-03T19:13:38Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > Admitted, I am in no position to point to a potential ongoing investigation. Neither are you in a position to say there isn’t an investigation. I know you’re playing devil’s advocate – and thank you, sincerely – but this is wacko paranoid territory. Just because we common citizens aren’t privy to the deepest inner workings of government doesn’t mean that the likelihood of there being some secret, ongoing investigation into an issue with bipartisan support in 2016 is equal to the likelihood that there is no investigation. It’s like saying (as **Euphonious Polemic** suggested), that because we have no way of knowing whether or not aliens will invade earth tomorrow, it could go either way. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2019, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771/1708 "2019-10-03T19:13:56Z")
> [@raventhief](#): > > Ok, so what was/is Volker’s position if he is not any kind of federal employee? This article from 5 days ago said he resigned from the State Department. > > [Implicated Ukraine Special Envoy resigns from State Dept](https://www.msnbc.com/hardball/watch/implicated-ukraine-special-envoy-resigns-from-state-dept-70125125602) > > (Video) and I’ll be honrst, I just read snippets, didn’t watch the whole thing) > > Is special envoy a federal position? > Never mind, already answered. Volker held the title of U.S. Special Envoy to Ukraine. He was not paid and held that post as a volunteer, but nonetheless acted on behalf of the government as an agent of the government, under the State Department. It is a federal position. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![MikeF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@MikeF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MikeF)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2019, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771/1709 "2019-10-03T19:15:08Z")
Fight my ignorance on a trial in the Senate. Even though the “jury” may have already decided, couldn’t the presentation of the prosecution’s (if that’s the correct term) case be enough to sway public opinion? Who would be the lead prosecutor? Could subpoenaed witnesses simply refuse to testify? Is there a judge or mediator to rule on questions of law? Is there a standard of proof? In a normal criminal trial, if there is enough damning evidence and the jury still acquits, everyone knows the fix was in but the jurors aren’t held accountable. In a Senate trial accountability comes by way of the following election. I doubt that would be much of a deterrence for the current crop of GOP Senators. ---
**Author:** ![bobot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bobot/32/21622_2.png) [@bobot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bobot)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2019, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771/1710 "2019-10-03T19:17:53Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > He was an agent of the government … Holy crap. No, he wasn’t. Jesus. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2019, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771/1711 "2019-10-03T19:18:56Z")
> [@Akaj](#): > > Just because we common citizens aren’t privy to the deepest inner workings of government doesn’t mean that the likelihood of there being some secret, ongoing investigation into an issue with bipartisan support in 2016 is equal to the likelihood that there is no investigation. If there \*were \*one, don’t you think Individual-1 would be screaming about it into every available microphone, instead of having to beg/coerce foreign countries into holding their own? ---
**Author:** ![Akaj](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/akaj/32/145_2.png) [@Akaj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Akaj)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2019, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771/1712 "2019-10-03T19:24:43Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > If there \*were \*one, don’t you think Individual-1 would be screaming about it into every available microphone, instead of having to beg/coerce foreign countries into holding their own? He can’t, because it’s super-top-secret. Duh. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2019, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771/1713 "2019-10-03T19:25:47Z")
> [@MikeF](#): > > Even though the “jury” may have already decided, couldn’t the presentation of the prosecution’s (if that’s the correct term) case be enough to sway public opinion? “Managers” from the House act as the prosecution, and yes, popular opinion would certainly have an effect on their actions. > [@](#): > > Who would be the lead prosecutor? The team of managers from the House would choose their lead. > [@](#): > > Could subpoenaed witnesses simply refuse to testify? Contempt of Congress is a law. > [@](#): > > Is there a judge or mediator to rule on questions of law? The Chief Justice, who presides. > [@](#): > > Is there a standard of proof? Whatever each Senator considers appropriate. > [@](#): > > In a normal criminal trial, if there is enough damning evidence and the jury still acquits, everyone knows the fix was in but the jurors aren’t held accountable. In a Senate trial accountability comes by way of the following election. I doubt that would be much of a deterrence for the current crop of GOP Senators. It’s a political act, with political consequences, so sure, each Senator will make a political decision at least in large part. But politics is about strengthening the nation too, not just getting elected - certainly some would do the right thing for their country, some would put party first. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2019, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771/1714 "2019-10-03T19:26:21Z")
> [@Akaj](#): > > I know you’re playing devil’s advocate – and thank you, sincerely – but this is wacko paranoid territory. Just because we common citizens aren’t privy to the deepest inner workings of government doesn’t mean that the likelihood of there being some secret, ongoing investigation into an issue with bipartisan support in 2016 is equal to the likelihood that there is no explanation. > > It’s like saying (as **Euphonious Polemic** suggested), that because we have no way of knowing whether or not aliens will invade earth tomorrow, it could go either way. In my opinion it is likely that there is officially an ongoing investigation now, but nobody is working on it because the alleged acts took place overseas. I am almost certain that there is no reasonable basis to investigate Joe Biden himself, I’m not so sure about the business Hunter Biden sits on the board of. I have no idea whether there was an ongoing investigation on June 25, but Mr. Trump better hope there was. But I really don’t like the idea of convicting someone on the likelihood of something being true when it can be easily determined whether or not that something actually happened. This isn’t a he-said she-said where nobody else was in the room - if an investigation actually happened and there were solid reasons to back it up, there must be solid evidence that said investigation exists. And it’s not like the unitary executive branch can claim that revealing the existence of the investigation is unacceptable; you have the president on national television publicly calling for foreign governments to help out with this investigation. Besides, it would take some pretty extreme circumstances - a vast left-wing conspiracy - for an investigation to be so sensitive that you can’t reveal it to prove you aren’t abusing power. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2019, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771/1715 "2019-10-03T19:27:51Z")
duplicate ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2019, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771/1716 "2019-10-03T19:34:17Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > You know, you keep arguing things, saying that you don’t believe some of the things you’re saying, and then adding more arguments. > > Can you clarify your intentions here: which of the things you’ve argued are your own opinions, and which ones are you playing devil’s advocate? I feel as though you’re hiding the ball at certain times. I think it’s possible that the president abused his authority and pressured a foreign government to further right-wing conspiracy theories for personal political gain, and attempted to withhold military aid until they complied. _Quid pro quo_. I also think it is quite possible that the president actually believes the conspiracy theories he pushes, therefore he did not possess the _mens rea_ I would consider necessary for impeachment. That would be grounds for incompetence under the 25th Amendment, which unfortunately is even _less_ likely to succeed. Far out in left field is the remote possibility that there is a good reason for everything. But realistically? Yeah right. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2019, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771/1717 "2019-10-03T19:35:03Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > Then that’s what you should be doing: convincing Republicans that there are no grounds for an investigation of Joe and Hunter Biden. Given that there isn’t one (come on now), it’s up to the Republican partisans to convince the rest of us that there should be one. Go ahead and start dong so any time; we promise to listen. > [@](#): > > Pressuring foreign governments to cooperate with a baseless investigation of a political rival is an impeachable abuse of power, I hope that much is admitted when Republicans say the president is not above the law. When do they say that nowadays? > [@](#): > > Whereas Republicans can sit back satisfied that they have convinced themselves because they have the numerical superiority. The burden falls on Democrats. Do you recognize any burden on the Republicans to act for the good of the nation, or that matter, for the good of anyone other than themselves? ---
**Author:** ![Airbeck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/airbeck/32/6574_2.png) [@Airbeck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airbeck)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2019, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771/1718 "2019-10-03T19:37:31Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > In my opinion it is likely that there is officially an ongoing investigation now, but nobody is working on it because the alleged acts took place overseas. I am almost certain that there is no reasonable basis to investigate Joe Biden himself, I’m not so sure about the business Hunter Biden sits on the board of. I have no idea whether there was an ongoing investigation on June 25, but Mr. Trump better hope there was. > > But I really don’t like the idea of convicting someone on the likelihood of something being true when it can be easily determined whether or not that something actually happened. This isn’t a he-said she-said where nobody else was in the room - if an investigation actually happened and there were solid reasons to back it up, there must be solid evidence that said investigation exists. And it’s not like the unitary executive branch can claim that revealing the existence of the investigation is unacceptable; you have the president on national television publicly calling for foreign governments to help out with this investigation. Besides, it would take some pretty extreme circumstances - a vast left-wing conspiracy - for an investigation to be so sensitive that you can’t reveal it to prove you aren’t abusing power. > > ~Max He isn’t asking other governments to help the US with an investigation, he is asking them to undertake one themselves into his political rivals with the understanding that they know what answer he wants them to come up with, for his own personal gain, not for America’s benefit. This is not a nuanced situation. It is a gross abuse of power. Please ask yourself how you would feel if this had been Clinton doing this, or Obama, or if potential President Warren were to do this. Stop thinking like a conservative and start thinking like an American. Do you value free and open elections? Or do you really want what Russia has, which is pretty much President Putin for life and their elections are foregone conclusions? Imagine if it wasn’t your party doing this. We all have to try to be objective here, the future of our Democracy is only protected by our vigilance. ---
**Author:** ![I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/i_love_me_vol.i/32/521_2.png) [@I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/I_Love_Me_Vol.I)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2019, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771/1719 "2019-10-03T19:37:34Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > The call was “perfect” in the sense that there was no static on the line, it didn’t drop due to a poor connection, nobody missed a crucial statement because the other guy was going through a tunnel, that sort of thing. “Can you fear me now?” (Moves a ways to his Right)… “Ok, how bout now?” ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2019, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771/1720 "2019-10-03T19:55:54Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > I also think it is quite possible that the president actually believes the conspiracy theories he pushes, therefore he did not possess the _mens rea_ I would consider necessary for impeachment. I don’t understand what you mean by mens rea. Are you saying (for example) that the President literally wasn’t aware of what he was saying in the phone call, as if he were senile or in a psychotic break? Or are you saying that he knew what he was asking of Ukraine, but didn’t see it as wrong in any possible way? Because if it’s the latter, that’s not mens rea. You don’t have to know what section of law you’re violating, you just have to have the intent to do what’s prohibited. (E.g., the cop who shot the guy in his own house and was convicted was thinking, “I’m going to use my pistol to kill this guy” as opposed to “I see a guy now and I am going to commit felony murder!”) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771.md?page=85) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771.md?page=87)