# The Trump Impeachment Inquiry **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [September 24, 2019, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771 "2019-09-24T20:23:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 89
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2019, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771/1761 "2019-10-04T00:05:42Z")
Here’s the thing, Max: your problem is you don’t get people that well. Anyone who knows people can tell Trump was dangling the weapons buy to get his favour. It’s cartoonish camouflage language. So no one here can come up with sone new legal theory to convince you, the already mentioned legal issues suffice. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Colossus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.colossus/32/9423_2.png) [@Dr.Colossus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Colossus)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2019, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771/1762 "2019-10-04T00:10:58Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > What’s going on at Fox News right now is actually a lot more complex and nuanced than you guys are making it out to be. It’s also utterly fascinating, and arguably key to the future of the country. Farhad Manjoo makes that case in his column in the New York Times titled “Why Lefties Should Watch Fox News”: [https://www.nytimes.com/2019/10/02/opinion/impeachment-fox-news.html?smid=nytcore-ios-share](https://www.nytimes.com/2019/10/02/opinion/impeachment-fox-news.html?smid=nytcore-ios-share) There’s a link that streams Fox News (live) so I pulled it up to hear Rudy on Hannity the other night. I ended up feeling sick to my stomach and wanted to drink about what I just saw. It’s full-tilt propaganda, with zero time for a dissenting opinion. It’s nonstop outrage farming where they are literally screaming at you what you should think and feel, with barely a time to catch their breath. It deeply, and sincerely concerns me that this is what my folk’s are pumping into their brains all day every day. I can only speculate on how they feel about all because we have a strict moratorium on political discussion, namely because I won’t be able to hold back how deeply disappointed I am in their suspension of principles. We have a good relationship so not discussing politics is the only method to maintain that. ---
**Author:** ![ThelmaLou](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thelmalou/32/390_2.png) [@ThelmaLou](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ThelmaLou)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2019, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771/1763 "2019-10-04T00:13:01Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Dude, I can no longer follow a coherent line of argument from you. YES! Now you’re catching on! ---
**Author:** ![Sherrerd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sherrerd/32/8_2.png) [@Sherrerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sherrerd)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2019, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771/1764 "2019-10-04T00:17:31Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > …I don’t know what prompted the administration to open an investigation, so I cannot offer an actual defense. But you also don’t know what prompted the administration to open an investigation. We can speculate that the basis was insufficient to warrant an investigation, and I think that’s probably right. This is something the House of Representatives should be able to ascertain during the course of their investigation, which I support. > > If official subpoenas turn up an unsatisfactory basis for investigation, the President loses any benefit of the doubt I have given him. … > [@Max\_S](#): > > … If the government has reason to suspect that an American citizen committed a crime, it is incumbent on the government to investigate and ensure that justice is served. Just because Hunter Biden is the son of the President’s rival, does not mean he is immune from the law. … I’m quoting just from two of your most recent posts, but most of your posts in this thread contain some variation on this theme: ‘Trump may have had reasonable grounds for suspecting Biden and his son of misconduct or worse, and that makes his 7-25-19 phone call to the Ukraine’s president, seeking “investigation” aid, unexceptionable.’ The disingenuity lies in what is left out: [ul] [li]that Trump was _not_ asking Zelensky to aid in an investigation run by the appropriate US intelligence/law-enforcement agencies, but instead to do the investigation himself with the aid of Trump’s personal lawyer; [/li] [li]that Trump had personally held up aid lawfully authorized by the US Congress _and signed into law by himself_, with no reasonable justification, a matter remarked on by several prominent US officials;[/li] [li]that Trump was holding up that aid ostensibly because holding up the aid would prompt Ukraine to become less corrupt, but simultaneously so that this ultra-corrupt nation would perform an investigation (of the Bidens) which somehow would be reliable and accurate.[/li][/ul] Leaving out these aspects of the situation creates an impression of special pleading, in an effort to portray Trump as behaving reasonably and with probity. The facts do not appear to support that interpretation. > [@Max\_S](#): > > …I know it’s hard to convey emotion through text, but I am being sincere in this thread. If you still want me to stop, I will stop. Well, you are giving us at least a close approximation of the Barrian view of government: that the President must be assumed always to be conducting himself with rectitude, acumen, and a sincere devotion to the nation, and that therefore it is always improper to question his decisions, as such questioning could imperil the majestic operations of The Presidency. (Or something along those lines.) I guess there’s value in exposure to this sort of way of looking at the world, so I wouldn’t vote to ask you to stop. ---
**Author:** ![KarlGauss](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/karlgauss/32/3713_2.png) [@KarlGauss](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KarlGauss)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2019, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771/1765 "2019-10-04T00:26:29Z")
Max, why do you want to give the benefit of the doubt to someone who has lied or prevaricated over [12000](https://www.salon.com/2019/08/12/donald-trump-has-lied-an-average-of-13-times-a-day-since-becoming-president-analysis-finds/) times since assuming office. Why would anyone? This time he’s being honest? ---
**Author:** ![Aspenglow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aspenglow/32/76_2.png) [@Aspenglow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aspenglow)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2019, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771/1766 "2019-10-04T00:36:27Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > Admitted, I am bending over backwards to put lipstick on a pig. > > \ > > I know it’s hard to convey emotion through text, but I am being sincere in this thread. If you still want me to stop, I will stop. > > ~Max Best I can tell, you want some nice, wrapped-up-with-a-bow-on-point legal argument explaining why it is wrong for a a so-called President of the United States to work within the confines of his oath of office in the best interests of the country. There is no such argument. It doesn’t exist. We’ve never had a person occupying the Oval Office so corrupt as to disregard even the most fundamental norms of our democracy. We do now. The impeachment process is deliberately vague. [Here is a primer](https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-trump-whistleblower-crimes-explai/explainer-impeachment-depends-on-high-crimes-and-misdemeanors-what-are-they-idUSKBN1WA288) that may assist you to understand this. (Reuters) If you are so morally and civilly bankrupt in character that you cannot understand why it is not in our best interests as a nation to invite/permit a foreign government to participate in the choosing of our elected officials, then I don’t think anything else I offer is going to help you to grasp this. I will not link to anything more for you to consider until you 1) provide _any_ evidence of actual wrongdoing by either Hunter and/or Joe Biden; 2) explain what national interest was served by Trump’s attempting to extort manufactured dirt on the Bidens in exchange for Congressionally-approved military aid that Ukraine desperately needed to fend off further encroachment of Russia on its lands so he, Trump, could try to win the 2020 election. If you cannot, then yes, please stop. ---
**Author:** ![drad\_dog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@drad\_dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drad_dog)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2019, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771/1767 "2019-10-04T00:42:10Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > The president’s interpretation of the law (Constitution) doesn’t enter the picture. My interpretation of “high crimes” is that the president must abuse his powers. If the government has reason to suspect that an American citizen committed a crime, it is incumbent on the government to investigate and ensure that justice is served. Just because Hunter Biden is the son of the President’s rival, does not mean he is immune from the law. Given the choice between the mere appearance of impropriety on the administration’s part, and actual criminal activity by the President’s rivals, I pick the appearance of impropriety. That means I give the president the benefit of the doubt. > The _actus reas_ would be the President investigating a political opponent’s family. The _mens rea_ would be the President doing so to with the intent of furthering personal politics, instead of upholding the law. > > If the President had a valid reason to investigate, it is very difficult for me to find the _mens rea_ I consider necessary for conviction (if I were voting). > > ~Max What will the jury make of the fact that he is not actually calling, advocating or doing anything like this with anyone else, any other country, or any other pol and their offspring? What does that say about his state of _mens_? ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2019, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771/1768 "2019-10-04T00:46:15Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > The president’s interpretation of the law (Constitution) doesn’t enter the picture. My interpretation of “high crimes” is that the president must abuse his powers. If the government has reason to suspect that an American citizen committed a crime, it is incumbent on the government to investigate and ensure that justice is served. Just because Hunter Biden is the son of the President’s rival, does not mean he is immune from the law. Given the choice between the mere appearance of impropriety on the administration’s part, and actual criminal activity by the President’s rivals, I pick the appearance of impropriety. That means I give the president the benefit of the doubt. > The _actus reas_ would be the President investigating a political opponent’s family. The _mens rea_ would be the President doing so to with the intent of furthering personal politics, instead of upholding the law. > > If the President had a valid reason to investigate, it is very difficult for me to find the _mens rea_ I consider necessary for conviction (if I were voting). > > ~Max What US law or laws do you think it might be likely that Hunter Biden broke? ---
**Author:** ![KarlGauss](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/karlgauss/32/3713_2.png) [@KarlGauss](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KarlGauss)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2019, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771/1769 "2019-10-04T01:14:02Z")
Interesting [tweet](https://twitter.com/EllenLWeintraub/status/1139309394968096768) today from the Chair of the Federal Election Commission, reminding that > [@](#): > > It is illegal for any person to solicit, receive, or accept anything of value from a foreign nation in connection with a US election. ---
**Author:** ![mjmlabs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mjmlabs/32/69_2.png) [@mjmlabs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mjmlabs)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2019, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771/1770 "2019-10-04T01:25:16Z")
And if anyone’s interested, George T. Conway III has a 30-page op-ed piece on _The Atlantic_’s website; minor paywall implications (4 free articles/month, tracked by cookies): **[Unfit for Office](https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2019/10/george-conway-trump-unfit-office/599128/)** _Donald Trump’s narcissism makes it impossible for him to carry out the duties of the presidency in the way the Constitution requires._ ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2019, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771/1771 "2019-10-04T01:29:19Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > What US law or laws do you think it might be likely that Hunter Biden broke? The same ones which Trump is clearly innocent of! ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2019, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771/1772 "2019-10-04T01:35:48Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > I agree that the act of investigating a political opponent (or his family) could be an abuse of power consistent with the “high crimes” in Article II Section 4. But there are two parts to a crime, the act and intent, and I am not yet convinced beyond a reasonable doubt that Mr. Trump did so with intent to profit from the investigation, as opposed to upholding the law. So let me see if I’m following your theory correctly. Joe Biden, while he was Vice President, may have interfered in the government of Ukraine by telling them he wanted them to do something. And an American government official doing this is a serious crime. So serious that Donald Trump, while he was President, felt he had to tell the government of Ukraine that he wanted them to take action against Biden. And this is the positive spin on what Trump did? ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2019, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771/1773 "2019-10-04T01:49:23Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > So let me see if I’m following your theory correctly. Joe Biden, while he was Vice President, may have interfered in the government of Ukraine by telling them he wanted them to do something. And an American government official doing this is a serious crime. So serious that Donald Trump, while he was President, felt he had to tell the government of Ukraine that he wanted them to take action against Biden. But, Biden’s crimes and corruption were so serious that Trump just wasn’t able to launch his investigation until the approximate time that the elder Biden announced his run for President. Total, total, total co-incidence. ---
**Author:** ![Locrian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/locrian/32/14146_2.png) [@Locrian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Locrian)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2019, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771/1774 "2019-10-04T01:49:33Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > My interpretation of “high crimes” is that the president \*\*must abuse his powers. \*\*If the government has reason to suspect that an American citizen comm:confused:itted a crime, it is incumbent on the government to investigate and ensure that justice is served. Just because Hunter Biden is the son of the President’s rival, does not mean he is immune from the law. My bold. I think that’s the answer we need in what his drivel is leaning towards. If a president must abuse his power, I guess that goes for any president? 😕 ---
**Author:** ![Ukulele\_Ike](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/df788c/32.png) [@Ukulele\_Ike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ukulele_Ike)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2019, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771/1775 "2019-10-04T01:51:31Z")
Who the fuck is **Max S.** and how did he manage to completely take over the thread? ---
**Author:** ![Locrian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/locrian/32/14146_2.png) [@Locrian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Locrian)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2019, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771/1776 "2019-10-04T01:53:09Z")
The superhero of Sim City Build It. Maxis. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![JKellyMap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jkellymap/32/15880_2.png) [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2019, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771/1777 "2019-10-04T01:57:13Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > I disagree. > > ~Max Recipe for kale chips: Preheat the oven to 275 degrees F. Remove the ribs from the kale and cut into 1 1/2-inch pieces. Lay on a baking sheet and toss with the olive oil and salt. Bake until crisp, turning the leaves halfway through, about 20 minutes. Serve as finger food. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Colossus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.colossus/32/9423_2.png) [@Dr.Colossus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Colossus)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2019, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771/1778 "2019-10-04T02:02:05Z")
> [@Ukulele\_Ike](#): > > Who the fuck is **Max S.** and how did he manage to completely take over the thread? He is a fantastic surrogate for the GOP: He has taken over this thread/the narrative the same way Dems allow the right to control the narrative. Everyone in this thread are falling over themselves to respond to him, and he’s dominated the entire conversation at this point. You all want to bring “superior logic” to a “doesn’t exist in reality” fight, and you can’t help yourselves but to constantly engage him. ---
**Author:** ![ThelmaLou](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thelmalou/32/390_2.png) [@ThelmaLou](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ThelmaLou)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2019, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771/1779 "2019-10-04T02:05:30Z")
> [@Dr.Colossus](#): > > He is a fantastic surrogate for the GOP: He has taken over this thread/the narrative the same way Dems allow the right to control the narrative. > > Everyone in this thread are falling over themselves to respond to him, and he’s dominated the entire conversation at this point. Let’s. Stop. Now. ---
**Author:** ![KarlGauss](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/karlgauss/32/3713_2.png) [@KarlGauss](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KarlGauss)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2019, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771/1780 "2019-10-04T02:11:41Z")
> [@mjmlabs](#): > > And if anyone’s interested, George T. Conway III has a 30-page op-ed piece on _The Atlantic_’s website; minor paywall implications (4 free articles/month, tracked by cookies): > **[Unfit for Office](https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2019/10/george-conway-trump-unfit-office/599128/)** > > _Donald Trump’s narcissism makes it impossible for him to carry out the duties of the presidency in the way the Constitution requires._ A wonderful, disturbingly on point read. Thanks for the link. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771.md?page=88) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771.md?page=90)