# The Trump Impeachment Trial
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-trial/846524
**Category:** Politics & Elections
**Created:** [January 16, 2020, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-trial/846524 "2020-01-16T20:12:52Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 11
### Author:  [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)
#### Post date: [January 23, 2020, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-trial/846524/201 "2020-01-23T01:20:08Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#):
>
> I wouldn’t classify it as micromanagement. Melinda isn’t managing at all, let alone micromanaging.
>
> This is where we get back to the discussion of LEO versus not.
>
> Is it micromanaging for the President to perform investigations on his own? Or is it better described as a hobby?
I would say micromanaging still. It’s not a hobby because it is actually his underlings’ jobs to investigate. I see what you are saying though - it would be like me doing my employee’s work even though I am not certified to do that work. Whether I have time to cover for my employee is a separate issue. I’m probably not going to concede this point as applied to the President, at least not wholeheartedly.
But I still want to see the rest of your argument. Pretend that I agree with you that it is wrong for the president to perform investigations on his own. That would be the Bill Barr’s job. Leave the time factor out because evidently the President has plenty of time on his hands, his involvement in Ukraine notwithstanding. Can you circle back to the impeachment trial? How does this tie in?
I think I see two separate arguments that don’t fit the situation, but I don’t want to attack a straw man.
~Max
---
### Author:  [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)
#### Post date: [January 23, 2020, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-trial/846524/202 "2020-01-23T01:24:02Z")
> [@Sinaptics](#):
>
> Additionally, what other countries did we withhold aid from due to corruption? Saudia Arabia? Sudan? Venezuela? Brazil? Nope. We only apparently held up Ukraine’s aid. That dog just doesn’t hunt.
P.93 of the defense brief provides one example:
Karen DeYoung, U.S. Withdrawing $100 Million in Aid to Afghanistan Amid Corruption Concerns, Wash. Post (Sept. 19, 2019), [Perma | U.S. withdrawing $100 million in aid to Afghanistan amid corruption concerns - The Washington Post](https://perma.cc/TK8K-4332)
Also possibly Lebanon?
Ben Gittleson & Conor Finnegan, Trump Administration Releases Lebanon Military Aid After It Was Held Up for Months, ABC News (Dec. 2, 2019), [Perma | Trump administration releases Lebanon military aid after it was held up for months - ABC News](https://perma.cc/B4YJ-Z77C)
~Max
---
### Author:  [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)
#### Post date: [January 23, 2020, 1:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-trial/846524/203 "2020-01-23T01:26:41Z")
> [@drad\_dog](#):
>
> You are using a regal or royal doctrine of the presidency. potus can’t just improvise national policy for our agencies, outside of his chain of command. This is a very important principle in the US. Are you American?
Born in Tennessee, yessirree. You tell me what the chain of command you have in mind is and either I’ll tell you why Trump’s actions are still appropriate, or I’ll concede the argument.
~Max
---
### Author:  [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)
#### Post date: [January 23, 2020, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-trial/846524/204 "2020-01-23T01:28:40Z")
> [@RickJay](#):
>
> Being the nominal head of something does not make you that profession. The President is Commander in Chief of the armed services, but he is not a soldier, he’s a civilian - a rather critical fact in a democratic republic. He is the head of the GAO but he’s not an accountant, and he’s the head of NASA but he’s not an astronaut.
Conceded for the sake of argument, and… I’m not going to nitpick despite the temptation.
So the President is not a law enforcement officer. Where were we?
~Max
---
### Author:  [@drad\_dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drad_dog)
#### Post date: [January 23, 2020, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-trial/846524/205 "2020-01-23T01:48:27Z")
> [@Max\_S](#):
>
> In this situation what would be the “chain of command”?
>
> ~Max
There is a chain in every heirarchical organization. You haven’t entered the work force yet have you?
---
### Author:  [@drad\_dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drad_dog)
#### Post date: [January 23, 2020, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-trial/846524/206 "2020-01-23T01:53:01Z")
> [@Max\_S](#):
>
> This is contrary to my understanding, and I will have to return with cites.
>
> And the defense theory is that the whistleblower had nothing to do with it, and the Pence/Portman meeting had everything to do with releasing the hold.
>
> ~Max
Could you explain the defense theory of the whistleblower more fully? How is he going to be advancing the defense case? I have been watching the defense and I’m pretty sure that notwithstanding their law degrees they don’t know what a whistleblower is or does. How is it a part of their defense?
---
### Author:  [@drad\_dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drad_dog)
#### Post date: [January 23, 2020, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-trial/846524/207 "2020-01-23T01:54:52Z")
> [@Max\_S](#):
>
> Conceded for the sake of argument, and… I’m not going to nitpick despite the temptation.
>
> So the President is not a law enforcement officer. Where were we?
>
> ~Max
We were talking about turnoup not being able to do what he did legally, because he isn’t part of any LE force. He is the civilian in charge.
---
### Author:  [@drad\_dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drad_dog)
#### Post date: [January 23, 2020, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-trial/846524/208 "2020-01-23T01:57:54Z")
> [@Max\_S](#):
>
> Born in Tennessee, yessirree. You tell me what the chain of command you have in mind is and either I’ll tell you why Trump’s actions are still appropriate, or I’ll concede the argument.
>
> ~Max
I asked about your unitary executive theories, which sound royalist to me.
---
### Author:  [@Sherrerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sherrerd)
#### Post date: [January 23, 2020, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-trial/846524/209 "2020-01-23T02:04:17Z")
> [@Sinaptics](#):
>
> Additionally, what other countries did we withhold aid from due to corruption? Saudia Arabia? Sudan? Venezuela? Brazil? Nope. We only apparently held up Ukraine’s aid. That dog just doesn’t hunt.
> [@Max\_S](#):
>
> P.93 of the defense brief provides one example:
> Karen DeYoung, U.S. Withdrawing $100 Million in Aid to Afghanistan Amid Corruption Concerns, Wash. Post (Sept. 19, 2019), [Perma | U.S. withdrawing $100 million in aid to Afghanistan amid corruption concerns - The Washington Post](https://perma.cc/TK8K-4332)
>
> Also possibly Lebanon?
> Ben Gittleson & Conor Finnegan, Trump Administration Releases Lebanon Military Aid After It Was Held Up for Months, ABC News (Dec. 2, 2019), [Perma | Trump administration releases Lebanon military aid after it was held up for months - ABC News](https://perma.cc/B4YJ-Z77C)
> ~Max
By an astonishing coincidence, both these examples of Corruption Fighting occurred _after_ the White House had learned of the whistleblower complaint.
Got anything from before?
---
### Author:  [@Ann\_Hedonia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ann_Hedonia)
#### Post date: [January 23, 2020, 2:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-trial/846524/210 "2020-01-23T02:08:46Z")
> [@Max\_S](#):
>
> This is contrary to my understanding, and I will have to return with cites.
>
> And the defense theory is that the whistleblower had nothing to do with it, and the Pence/Portman meeting had everything to do with releasing the hold.
>
> ~Max
You should be able to find good cites on this. It’s a tale typical of the gaslighting and corruption endemic in Ukraine.
Shokin, a Ukrainian prosecutor, was tasked with investigating, not Burisma, but the owner of Burisma, an oligarch named Zlochevsky. He was accused of stealing 23 million dollars from the Ukrainian people. This money was in a British bank account and British authorities had frozen the account.
Shokin was tasked with investigating Zlochevsky and his corruption. But Zlochevsky was his buddy, so he slow-walked the investigation and failed to take certain actions. Great Britain was forced to release the 23 million back to Zlochevsky.
This outraged both the British and the US prosecutors, who embarked on a campaign spearheaded by Biden, to get Shokin fired. It worked.
So the “spin” on this tale is “Biden fired the prosecutor investigating the owner of his son’s company”. But the reality is he was fired for NOT investigating.
Here’s a good article from USA Today, a reasonably non-partisan source. There were other reasons for firing the dude and the story I paraphrased is only a small part of the article.
> **[Explainer: Biden, allies pushed out Ukrainian prosecutor because he didn't...](https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2019/10/03/what-really-happened-when-biden-forced-out-ukraines-top-prosecutor/3785620002/)**
>
> Trump has claimed Biden forced out Ukraine's top prosecutor in order to benefit his son. Former diplomats say the prosecutor wasn't doing his job.
---
### Author:  [@Sherrerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sherrerd)
#### Post date: [January 23, 2020, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-trial/846524/211 "2020-01-23T02:16:47Z")
> [@Sinaptics](#):
>
> Additionally, what other countries did we withhold aid from due to corruption? Saudia Arabia? Sudan? Venezuela? Brazil? Nope. We only apparently held up Ukraine’s aid. That dog just doesn’t hunt.
Notable, too: Trump had all of 2017, all of 2018, and the beginning of 2019 to express his concern about ‘corruption in Ukraine’ and/or ‘problems with Joe Biden’s conduct with regard to Ukraine’ and/or ‘problems with Hunter Biden’s time in Ukraine.’
And for a big chunk of that Jan 2017-to-April-2019 time period, Trump had a GOP Senate and House at his disposal, ready to support efforts to Work on Corruption in Ukraine! Not to mention Trump’s ability to ask CIA and other US intelligence agencies for help in rooting out Corruption in Ukraine, and/or Problems with the Bidens.
Yet—by yet another of those amazing coincidences—Trump did nothing whatsoever along these lines\* until, you guessed it, Joe Biden became a candidate for the Presidency.
\*If Trump had anything to show that he’d taken Anti-Corruption Action On Ukraine and/or Bidens _before_ Joe announced his candidacy, it would be massively exculpatory. And Trump wouldn’t have to violate any security concerns—he could employ as many redactions as his people thought necessary to keep the nation safe, in releasing such documentation; he could release it only to committees of Congress in which members have high security clearance (for example).
Given these facts: if Trump did _anything_ about Ukraine or ‘problems with Bidens in Ukraine’ prior to Joe’s announcement…why isn’t he producing that evidence? Wouldn’t you think he’d want to clear his name?
(I continue to be amazed that Trump defenders apparently believe the '_Trump the Ardent Corruption-Fighter’_ story is even remotely credible.)
---
### Author:  [@Wolf333](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wolf333)
#### Post date: [January 23, 2020, 3:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-trial/846524/212 "2020-01-23T03:37:08Z")
> [@Max\_S](#):
>
> No, but does make him a military commander. A military officer even.
>
> I’m not saying he is a general, not until he is actually in the field commanding an army. But he’s still an officer within that organization.
>
> ~Max
No, he is not an officer.
In some ways, I wish he was. That would make him subject to the UCMJ, particularly Article 133.
Also articles:
77
78
80
81
82
88
92
98
104
107
123a
127
131
132
134-2
134-6
134-11
134-12
134-19
134-28
134-35
134-37
134-40
134-43
134-48
134-51
134-53
Basically, if Trump was a military officer, he would be fucked.
---
### Author:  [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)
#### Post date: [January 23, 2020, 3:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-trial/846524/213 "2020-01-23T03:47:13Z")
> [@Wolf333](#):
>
> Basically, if Trump was a military officer, he would be fucked.
Fortunately, he had bone spurs and does not need to hold himself to the standard by which he (as the Executive) holds millions of others, who he sometimes sends to their deaths in service to our flag.
---
### Author:  [@ThelmaLou](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ThelmaLou)
#### Post date: [January 23, 2020, 12:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-trial/846524/214 "2020-01-23T12:20:19Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#):
>
> Fortunately, he had bone spurs and does not need to hold himself to the standard by which he (as the Executive) holds millions of others, who he sometimes sends to their deaths in service to our flag.
“Deaths”? No, you’re mistaken. Those were just really bad headaches. :mad::mad:
---
### Author:  [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)
#### Post date: [January 23, 2020, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-trial/846524/215 "2020-01-23T14:41:23Z")
> [@ThelmaLou](#):
>
> “Deaths”? No, you’re mistaken. Those were just really bad headaches. :mad::mad:
No, not even that bad, Dr. Trump has assured us!: [President Trump minimizes concussion-like injuries in Iraq attack as merely 'headaches' - ABC News](https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/president-trump-minimizes-concussion-injuries-iraq-attack-headaches/story?id=68448853)
---
### Author:  [@SingleMalt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SingleMalt)
#### Post date: [January 23, 2020, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-trial/846524/216 "2020-01-23T14:45:23Z")
> [@Ann\_Hedonia](#):
>
> You should be able to find good cites on this. It’s a tale typical of the gaslighting and corruption endemic in Ukraine.
>
> Shokin, a Ukrainian prosecutor, was tasked with investigating, not Burisma, but the owner of Burisma, an oligarch named Zlochevsky. He was accused of stealing 23 million dollars from the Ukrainian people. This money was in a British bank account and British authorities had frozen the account.
>
> Shokin was tasked with investigating Zlochevsky and his corruption. But Zlochevsky was his buddy, so he slow-walked the investigation and failed to take certain actions. Great Britain was forced to release the 23 million back to Zlochevsky.
>
> This outraged both the British and the US prosecutors, who embarked on a campaign spearheaded by Biden, to get Shokin fired. It worked.
>
> So the “spin” on this tale is “Biden fired the prosecutor investigating the owner of his son’s company”. But the reality is he was fired for NOT investigating.
>
> Here’s a good article from USA Today, a reasonably non-partisan source. There were other reasons for firing the dude and the story I paraphrased is only a small part of the article.
>
> [What really happened when Biden forced out Ukraine's top prosecutor](https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2019/10/03/what-really-happened-when-biden-forced-out-ukraines-top-prosecutor/3785620002/)
In addition to this fine summary, [here](https://www.justsecurity.org/66271/timeline-trump-giuliani-bidens-and-ukrainegate/)is a nice compilation of the Ukraine timeline. The Prosecutor General that Joe Biden helped to oust, Shorkin, was removed partly for _not_ investigating Burisma.
---
### Author:  [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)
#### Post date: [January 23, 2020, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-trial/846524/217 "2020-01-23T15:50:50Z")
> [@SingleMalt](#):
>
> In addition to this fine summary, [here](https://www.justsecurity.org/66271/timeline-trump-giuliani-bidens-and-ukrainegate/)is a nice compilation of the Ukraine timeline. The Prosecutor General that Joe Biden helped to oust, Shorkin, was removed partly for _not_ investigating Burisma.
As I recall, several countries, not just Biden and the US, were pushing for ousting that prosecutor for failing to go after corruption. But in the Bizarro world that is the Republican Party, Biden alone arranged for the ouster in order to stop investigation of him and his son.
---
### Author:  [@BigAppleBucky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigAppleBucky)
#### Post date: [January 23, 2020, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-trial/846524/218 "2020-01-23T16:51:48Z")
> [@EasyPhil](#):
>
> I wonder if he’ll be swayed by some of the lying antics of Adam Schiff and company.
NY T imes sub-headline today pretty much summed it up.
**Piles of Evidence vs. Heaps of Scorn.**
[As House impeachment managers emphasize the facts, President Trump’s defense team calls the process unfair.](https://www.nytimes.com/2020/01/22/us/politics/impeachment-legal-strategy.html?action=click&module=Top%20Stories&pgtype=Homepage)
---
### Author:  [@EasyPhil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EasyPhil)
#### Post date: [January 23, 2020, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-trial/846524/219 "2020-01-23T18:27:56Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#):
>
> While I would agree that Schiff is not above stretching the truth a fair ways - or, at least, is so partisan that he is prone to misreadings that render some of his output useless - the majority of his work is perfectly founded in fact and would survive any independent review.
>
> Moreover, it is silly to complain that Schiff is a liar while backing even greater liars. And it is silly to back liars because you hate the FBI, when those liars would almost certainly use the FBI for far graver violations of privacy than is already occurring.
>
> At the same time as Devin Nunes was writing his first memo on FISA abuse, as example, he was voting to maintain full spy powers for the FBI. That gives strong lie to the concept that he believed what he preached.
It’s not a misreading when you have access to the same classified information and clearly misrepresent that information. This happened with Schiff’s memo countering Nunes’s memo that exposed the wrongdoing that the IG documented in his report.
I’m not backing anyone let alone liars. Don’t confuse me with other posters or make assumptions about what I think. Ask questions and get answers.
---
### Author:  [@Inigo\_Montoya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inigo_Montoya)
#### Post date: [January 23, 2020, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-trial/846524/220 "2020-01-23T19:07:57Z")
…but I may as well bury it at the end of a sinking thread for all my opinion matters.
There is no way in hell the senate will convict, let alone remove this guy. And I really can’t explain why that would be without making outrageous assertions with zero evidence apart from past performance. The situation is not simply a matter of different opinions, it is a partisan thing where the Republicans aren’t even willing to give an honest hearing of what the Democrats feel are relevant facts. It looks, quacks, and walks like the Republican party legit wants the USA to crumble into a disorganized third world mess. If they even whispered so much as a fact in defense of President Trump I might have hope, but this is not happening.
This impeachment is not a fight to save the nation at this point. It is the physician holding the mirror under the nose of a suspected corpse and hoping against hope for even a tiny bit of fog.
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