# The Trump Impeachment Trial
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-trial/846524
**Category:** Politics & Elections
**Created:** [January 16, 2020, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-trial/846524 "2020-01-16T20:12:52Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 12
### Author:  [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)
#### Post date: [January 23, 2020, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-trial/846524/221 "2020-01-23T19:16:03Z")
It’s kind of hilarious that the people screaming “Make America great again!” are the single biggest cause of the country’s current decline.
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### Author:  [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)
#### Post date: [January 23, 2020, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-trial/846524/222 "2020-01-23T19:23:02Z")
The purpose of this impeachment and trial is to show that the Democrats did their duty as public servants, and just as crucially, _that the Republican party has abandoned theirs_. This is why it’s important, just as much, if not more so than the minuscule chance that he’s actually removed.
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### Author:  [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)
#### Post date: [January 23, 2020, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-trial/846524/223 "2020-01-23T19:25:11Z")
> [@EasyPhil](#):
>
> It’s not a misreading when you have access to the same classified information and clearly misrepresent that information. This happened with Schiff’s memo countering Nunes’s memo that exposed the wrongdoing that the IG documented in his report.
I’ve seen sufficient insane readings of things, here on the SDMB (or, myself been the person, presumably, doing so) that it’s safe to say that any assumption that a person is lying because they’re saying something that directly conflicts with what they’re saying would be unsupportable without much greater information to back the “lie” hypothesis.
As example, you read the Mueller report, which makes the direct statement, “This report does not exonerate the President”, and told us that it says it exonerates the President.
Should I take you to be a liar? Or is it more reasonable to assume that some element of your psyche prevents you from taking the literal words of the document at face value? I lean towards the latter, even disregarding the rules of the forum.
> [@](#):
>
> I’m not backing anyone let alone liars. Don’t confuse me with other posters or make assumptions about what I think. Ask questions and get answers.
Unless I misremembered, you have championed the Nunes report. That seems unreasonable if you read it thinking, “This Nunes guy, he’s a blatant liar who can’t be trusted an inch.” To think that, read the document, and then come out of it and champion it as something we should care about seems unsupportable.
So, clearly, you trusted the general good intent of his words and you’re basing your actions on his words and calling others liars on the basis of trusting the good intent of his words.
But, as said, he is provably a liar.
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### Author:  [@Inigo\_Montoya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inigo_Montoya)
#### Post date: [January 23, 2020, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-trial/846524/224 "2020-01-23T19:52:41Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#):
>
> The purpose of this impeachment and trial is to show that the Democrats did their duty as public servants, and just as crucially, _that the Republican party has abandoned theirs_. This is why it’s important, just as much, if not more so than the minuscule chance that he’s actually removed.
But so what? The Republicans will crow their victory and the Democrats will look like losers–because they _are_ losers who, when it mattered most, insisted on using outdated tactics to fight a ruthless and lawless enemy. The Democrats are going to fail spectacularly and hand this nation over, once and for all, to anti-intellectuals and fascists. But at least they’ll look honorable in their defeat. Oh sure, something will coalesce in the ashes on the Left, but not in what’s left of my lifetime.
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### Author:  [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)
#### Post date: [January 23, 2020, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-trial/846524/225 "2020-01-23T19:59:14Z")
> [@ThelmaLou](#):
>
> “Deaths”? No, you’re mistaken. Those were just really bad headaches. :mad::mad:
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#):
>
> No, not even that bad, Dr. Trump has assured us!: [President Trump minimizes concussion-like injuries in Iraq attack as merely 'headaches' - ABC News](https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/president-trump-minimizes-concussion-injuries-iraq-attack-headaches/story?id=68448853)
While I understand the point that you both are making, I just want to make it clear that the President (including President Trump) does send people into battle and other situations where they are in a struggle for their life.
So while it may be that there are no popularized deaths in the media in recent times, a) the media isn’t paying much attention to our troops in Africa and elsewhere nor to individual little skirmishes, plus b) [https://www.nytimes.com/2017/05/20/world/asia/china-cia-spies-espionage.html](https://www.nytimes.com/2017/05/20/world/asia/china-cia-spies-espionage.html)
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### Author:  [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)
#### Post date: [January 23, 2020, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-trial/846524/226 "2020-01-23T20:08:04Z")
> [@Inigo\_Montoya](#):
>
> But so what? The Republicans will crow their victory and the Democrats will look like losers–because they _are_ losers who, when it mattered most, insisted on using outdated tactics to fight a ruthless and lawless enemy. The Democrats are going to fail spectacularly and hand this nation over, once and for all, to anti-intellectuals and fascists. But at least they’ll look honorable in their defeat. Oh sure, something will coalesce in the ashes on the Left, but not in what’s left of my lifetime.
The alternative is not fighting at all. Fighting is better than doing nothing.
We’ll see how it turns out. I’m less than convinced by the doom-and-gloom certainty of a random internet stranger.
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### Author:  [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)
#### Post date: [January 23, 2020, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-trial/846524/227 "2020-01-23T20:38:38Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#):
>
> So while it may be that there are no popularized deaths in the media in recent times, a) the media isn’t paying much attention to our troops in Africa and elsewhere nor to individual little skirmishes, plus b) [https://www.nytimes.com/2017/05/20/world/asia/china-cia-spies-espionage.html](https://www.nytimes.com/2017/05/20/world/asia/china-cia-spies-espionage.html)
I gotta say, I’ve been watching more PBS and BBC news lately for actual world news. I’m well past my limit of the 24hour news cycle of “Look at what that fucking asshole Trump did now!”
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### Author:  [@Inigo\_Montoya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inigo_Montoya)
#### Post date: [January 23, 2020, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-trial/846524/228 "2020-01-23T20:54:44Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#):
>
> The alternative is not fighting at all. Fighting is better than doing nothing.
>
> We’ll see how it turns out. I’m less than convinced by the doom-and-gloom certainty of a random internet stranger.
He he he…I don’t want to convince ANYONE to join me in this miserable, gloomy corner, I’m just crying into the void because it seems like the most reasonable course of action at this point. Hell, I hope I’m totally misreading the whole sitch–I’d rather be happy than right any day.
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### Author:  [@EasyPhil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EasyPhil)
#### Post date: [January 23, 2020, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-trial/846524/229 "2020-01-23T20:57:20Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#):
>
> I’ve seen sufficient insane readings of things, here on the SDMB (or, myself been the person, presumably, doing so) that it’s safe to say that any assumption that a person is lying because they’re saying something that directly conflicts with what they’re saying would be unsupportable without much greater information to back the “lie” hypothesis.
It safe to say someone is lying when they have access to information that directly contradicts what they are saying and writing for public consumption. Schiff at the time was the Minority member of the Intelligence Committee, the Committee responsible for Intelligence Agency oversight. The information that Nunes put in his memo to expose the FBI wrongdoing was validated by the subsequent IG Report. Schiff crafted a memo in direct contradiction to the Nunes memo. I’d love to give him the benefit of the doubt but he’s a smart guy, he should have known better and his actions were not in keeping with his oversight role.
> [@](#):
>
> As example, you read the Mueller report, which makes the direct statement, “This report does not exonerate the President”, and told us that it says it exonerates the President.
>
> Should I take you to be a liar? Or is it more reasonable to assume that some element of your psyche prevents you from taking the literal words of the document at face value? I lean towards the latter, even disregarding the rules of the forum.
This isn’t the same thing and you should know that.
> [@](#):
>
> Unless I misremembered, you have championed the Nunes report. That seems unreasonable if you read it thinking, “This Nunes guy, he’s a blatant liar who can’t be trusted an inch.” To think that, read the document, and then come out of it and champion it as something we should care about seems unsupportable.
>
> So, clearly, you trusted the general good intent of his words and you’re basing your actions on his words and calling others liars on the basis of trusting the good intent of his words.
>
> But, as said, he is provably a liar.
You’re making assumptions again. It’s not the person it’s the information.
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### Author:  [@ThelmaLou](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ThelmaLou)
#### Post date: [January 23, 2020, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-trial/846524/230 "2020-01-23T20:59:34Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#):
>
> While I understand the point that you both are making, I just want to make it clear that the President (including President Trump) does send people into battle and other situations where they are in a struggle for their life.
>
> So while it may be that there are no popularized deaths in the media in recent times, a) the media isn’t paying much attention to our troops in Africa and elsewhere nor to individual little skirmishes, plus b) [https://www.nytimes.com/2017/05/20/world/asia/china-cia-spies-espionage.html](https://www.nytimes.com/2017/05/20/world/asia/china-cia-spies-espionage.html)
Sorry, I don’t understand your quibble with my sarcastic remark. I’m both the daughter and widow of disabled veterans and I know what trump does. I don’t want to get into a back-and-forth with you on this (there are too many of them in this thread already :rolleyes:), but I want to make it clear that my remark was bitter and intended to insult him.
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### Author:  [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)
#### Post date: [January 23, 2020, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-trial/846524/231 "2020-01-23T21:04:43Z")
> [@EasyPhil](#):
>
> It safe to say someone is lying when they have access to information that directly contradicts what they are saying and writing for public consumption.
You have had direct access to information that directly contradicts what you were saying. Should I report you to the mods for calling yourself a liar?
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### Author:  [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)
#### Post date: [January 23, 2020, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-trial/846524/232 "2020-01-23T21:13:17Z")
Carter Page. The least relevant figure in this whole mess. That’s what the whole Nunes/Schriff crapola is about, this insignificant dweeb from nowhere. And somehow, we are urged to believe that this is a Big Hairy Ass Deal. Carter _Fucking_ Page. Cheese Louise, **EZ** , this is all you got?
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### Author:  [@EasyPhil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EasyPhil)
#### Post date: [January 23, 2020, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-trial/846524/233 "2020-01-23T21:15:37Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#):
>
> You have had direct access to information that directly contradicts what you were saying. Should I report you to the mods for calling yourself a liar?
Show me.
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### Author:  [@EasyPhil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EasyPhil)
#### Post date: [January 23, 2020, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-trial/846524/234 "2020-01-23T21:16:51Z")
> [@elucidator](#):
>
> Carter Page. The least relevant figure in this whole mess. That’s what the whole Nunes/Schriff crapola is about, this insignificant dweeb from nowhere. And somehow, we are urged to believe that this is a Big Hairy Ass Deal. Carter _Fucking_ Page. Cheese Louise, **EZ** , this is all you got?
It’s bigger than that which is why there was an IG investigation and a statement by the FISC court and a continuing investigation by John Durham.
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### Author:  [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)
#### Post date: [January 23, 2020, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-trial/846524/235 "2020-01-23T21:21:49Z")
> [@EasyPhil](#):
>
> It’s bigger than that which is why there was an IG investigation and a statement by the FISC court and a continuing investigation by John Durham.
I’ve asked this of you numerous times, never to get an answer. So, I’ll take another swing at it:
So what?
This is a thread about the impeachment of Donald Trump, not about mistakes that the FBI made in getting a FISA warrant. Why, other than your penchant for beating departed horses, do you continue to raise this issue? And why here? What is the conclusion that you are so desperately trying to not voice out loud?
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### Author:  [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)
#### Post date: [January 23, 2020, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-trial/846524/236 "2020-01-23T22:18:25Z")
> [@EasyPhil](#):
>
> Show me.
I have no interest in reopening the discussion, so I’ll just link to the one:
[https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=860343](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=860343)
Again, my presumption is that you were honest at all points in time in the discussion. Nevertheless, I believe that there was only one statement that you made that was supported by the material you referenced.
I can certainly say that I was honest in my presentations of the information, so if that was opposite to what you were saying, then one of us is dramatically misreading.
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### Author:  [@MulderMuffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MulderMuffin)
#### Post date: [January 23, 2020, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-trial/846524/237 "2020-01-23T22:55:13Z")
I wish we had a view of the whole Senate chamber, not just of the people speaking. I’ve read reports of senators sleeping, doing crossword puzzles, leaving the room for extended periods, talking amongst themselves, throwing temper fits, and reading books when they are supposed to be listening to the evidence presented. That’s probably precisely why access to the press has been curtailed. Show America exactly who is representing them!
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### Author:  [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)
#### Post date: [January 23, 2020, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-trial/846524/238 "2020-01-23T22:58:32Z")
> [@MulderMuffin](#):
>
> leaving the room for extended periods
NOTICE: DOOR LOCKS UPON CLOSING
And how about, if you miss more than a certain amount of testimony, you don’t get to vote.
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### Author:  [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)
#### Post date: [January 23, 2020, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-trial/846524/239 "2020-01-23T23:05:57Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#):
>
> It’s kind of hilarious that the people screaming “Make America great again!” are the single biggest cause of the country’s current decline.
Making America great AGAIN is only sufficiently impressive if you start from a point of America being a dystopian hellscape. They’re concerned that they haven’t yet achieved maximum dystopian hellscape.
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### Author:  [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)
#### Post date: [January 23, 2020, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-trial/846524/240 "2020-01-23T23:33:30Z")
> [@drad\_dog](#):
>
> There is a chain in every heirarchical organization. You haven’t entered the work force yet have you?
I know what a chain of command _is_, but I don’t know what it would be in this situation. That’s why I ask. I don’t see any strict chain of command that goes above the president. It seems to me that it could be appropriate for heads of state to arrange for their deputies to meet and work out the details.
~Max
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