# The Trump Impeachment Trial
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-trial/846524
**Category:** Politics & Elections
**Created:** [January 16, 2020, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-trial/846524 "2020-01-16T20:12:52Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 13
### Author:  [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)
#### Post date: [January 23, 2020, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-trial/846524/241 "2020-01-23T23:35:35Z")
> [@drad\_dog](#):
>
> Could you explain the defense theory of the whistleblower more fully? How is he going to be advancing the defense case? I have been watching the defense and I’m pretty sure that notwithstanding their law degrees they don’t know what a whistleblower is or does. How is it a part of their defense?
Sure, the defense theory is that the timing of the whistleblower and related press is a complete coincidence, it had nothing to do with Mr. Trump’s decision to release the hold, end of story.
~Max
---
### Author:  [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)
#### Post date: [January 23, 2020, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-trial/846524/242 "2020-01-23T23:36:05Z")
I
> [@](#):
>
> wish we had a view of the whole Senate chamber, not just of the people speaking. I’ve read reports of senators sleeping, doing crossword puzzles, leaving the room for extended periods, talking amongst themselves, throwing temper fits…
Its a show, point they are trying to make is that its all trivia and insignificant. Which works as long as you don’t listen. Because Schiff and Co. made a case that is solid, verified and testified. Perhaps one can disagree, but no reasoning mind would dismiss it out of hand, too many documents, too many reliable witnesses.
They are trying to tamp down and undermine the prevailing sentiment among voters that yeah, they do want the facts, they do want to know. And if this contempt backfires, this will make it a whole lot worse.
“Oh, _your_ Senator? _Yours_ didn’t listen, he already made up his mind. Sure, swore he wouldn’t, did anyway.”
---
### Author:  [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)
#### Post date: [January 23, 2020, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-trial/846524/243 "2020-01-23T23:45:06Z")
> [@drad\_dog](#):
>
> We were talking about turnoup not being able to do what he did legally, because he isn’t part of any LE force. He is the civilian in charge.
Mr. Trump wasn’t the one that went to Ukraine to play detective, so could you explain what you mean when you write “what he did”?
**Sage Rat** had originally argued that Mr. Trump’s actions were a dereliction of his duties and thus unconstitutional, because Mr. Trump is not a law enforcement officer, and I assume **Sage Rat** ’s argument is that Mr. Trump’s actions would only have been constitutional if he were a law enforcement officer. It is still not clear which particular actions we are talking about, and thus it is unclear if the defense theory addresses this.
I can only _guess_ that you two think only law enforcement officers can request a foreign nation to investigate something. But law enforcement officers work for the president, and foreign law enforcement officers work for the foreign president, so I see no reason that our president and their president can’t talk to eachother about the work of their respective underlings, or to arrange some sort of cooperation.
~Max
---
### Author:  [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)
#### Post date: [January 23, 2020, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-trial/846524/244 "2020-01-23T23:48:28Z")
> [@drad\_dog](#):
>
> I asked about your unitary executive theories, which sound royalist to me.
I’m not a royalist, because not only do I prefer elections to monarchy, I dislike our current president.
~Max
---
### Author:  [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)
#### Post date: [January 23, 2020, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-trial/846524/245 "2020-01-23T23:50:34Z")
> [@Sherrerd](#):
>
> By an astonishing coincidence, both these examples of Corruption Fighting occurred _after_ the White House had learned of the whistleblower complaint.
>
> Got anything from before?
Nope, sorry. I found something about Guatemala in '18 but it looks like that was in response to the migrant caravan, not actually corruption.
~Max
---
### Author:  [@Boycott](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boycott)
#### Post date: [January 23, 2020, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-trial/846524/246 "2020-01-23T23:52:48Z")
John Roberts must be the most bored man on the planet.
---
### Author:  [@MulderMuffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MulderMuffin)
#### Post date: [January 24, 2020, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-trial/846524/247 "2020-01-24T00:17:34Z")
> [@elucidator](#):
>
> I
>
> Its a show, point they are trying to make is that its all trivia and insignificant. Which works as long as you don’t listen. Because Schiff and Co. made a case that is solid, verified and testified. Perhaps one can disagree, but no reasoning mind would dismiss it out of hand, too many documents, too many reliable witnesses.
>
> They are trying to tamp down and undermine the prevailing sentiment among voters that yeah, they do want the facts, they do want to know. And if this contempt backfires, this will make it a whole lot worse.
>
> “Oh, _your_ Senator? _Yours_ didn’t listen, he already made up his mind. Sure, swore he wouldn’t, did anyway.”
I want to know how my senator is behaving. My state’s one of those that’s been gerrymandered into a red state despite the actual population makeup. My senator often shows up on TV spouting nonsense. I’d like to be able to call him out if he can’t even sit still and listen for a few hours at a time and pretend that all this matters.
---
### Author:  [@drad\_dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drad_dog)
#### Post date: [January 24, 2020, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-trial/846524/248 "2020-01-24T00:33:24Z")
> [@Max\_S](#):
>
> I know what a chain of command _is_, but I don’t know what it would be in this situation. That’s why I ask. I don’t see any strict chain of command that goes above the president. It seems to me that it could be appropriate for heads of state to arrange for their deputies to meet and work out the details.
>
> ~Max
Chain of command is mandatory in orgs like LE and the military for obvious reasons. Sometimes you even get “topped” for violating it, depending on the theater of the violation. It has to do with protocol: both going up the chain and going down.
It was not appropraite if he is sandbagging his own foreign office about it, and holding up our money.
---
### Author:  [@drad\_dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drad_dog)
#### Post date: [January 24, 2020, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-trial/846524/249 "2020-01-24T00:37:03Z")
> [@Max\_S](#):
>
> Sure, the defense theory is that the timing of the whistleblower and related press is a complete coincidence, it had nothing to do with Mr. Trump’s decision to release the hold, end of story.
>
> ~Max
So the WB is only in this as an excuse about the date of disbursement? No they had big plans for him. He was a bad person. Part of a plan.
---
### Author:  [@drad\_dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drad_dog)
#### Post date: [January 24, 2020, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-trial/846524/250 "2020-01-24T00:41:11Z")
> [@Max\_S](#):
>
> I’m not a royalist, because not only do I prefer elections to monarchy, I dislike our current president.
>
> ~Max
But you are giving him the biggest benefit of the doubt possible on each issue, and then exceeding it. That sounds royalist or even trumpist.
He is a king who says stuff and then minions rationalize it, or make it into a grid of unreality. Why?
---
### Author:  [@drad\_dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drad_dog)
#### Post date: [January 24, 2020, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-trial/846524/251 "2020-01-24T00:42:26Z")
> [@Max\_S](#):
>
> Mr. Trump wasn’t the one that went to Ukraine to play detective, so could you explain what you mean when you write “what he did”?
>
> **Sage Rat** had originally argued that Mr. Trump’s actions were a dereliction of his duties and thus unconstitutional, because Mr. Trump is not a law enforcement officer, and I assume **Sage Rat** ’s argument is that Mr. Trump’s actions would only have been constitutional if he were a law enforcement officer. It is still not clear which particular actions we are talking about, and thus it is unclear if the defense theory addresses this.
>
> I can only _guess_ that you two think only law enforcement officers can request a foreign nation to investigate something. But law enforcement officers work for the president, and foreign law enforcement officers work for the foreign president, so I see no reason that our president and their president can’t talk to eachother about the work of their respective underlings, or to arrange some sort of cooperation.
>
> ~Max
I’m pretty sure you don’t have a real job. “Libertarian hacker”?
---
### Author:  [@Sherrerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sherrerd)
#### Post date: [January 24, 2020, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-trial/846524/252 "2020-01-24T00:53:26Z")
> [@Boycott](#):
>
> John Roberts must be the most bored man on the planet.
Roberts has listened (on the 21st) to members of Trump’s defense team speaking outright lies.
> [@](#):
>
> During his opening remarks at the Senate removal trial of Donald Trump, White House Counsel Pat Cipollone lied. Repeatedly. Cipollone said that Republicans were not allowed in the Sensitive Compartmented Information Facility to participate in depositions taken during the House’s impeachment investigation. That is a demonstrable lie. He accused Representative Adam Schiff of having “manufactured” a “false version” of Trump’s phone call with Ukraine President Volodymyr Zelensky. That’s not true. He played fast and loose with the timeline around the Zelensky call, alleging a controversy over the first phone call that never happened. …
>
> … we haven’t seen the Trump people lie so brazenly in court, or something that appears to be court. We haven’t seen them lie after oaths have been taken. A lot of people thought that a trial presided over by the chief justice of the United States would be the moment where the lying stopped…
>
> If you read the rules for this trial, as transmitted by Senate majority leader Mitch McConnell, you’ll note that there’s no penalty for “lying.” There is not even a procedure to determine if somebody has lied.
>
> In a normal trial, the judge is empowered to stop advocates like Cipollone from openly and obviously lying to the court and the jury. In a normal trial, the judge would have been empowered to cut Cipollone off, mid-lie if necessary, and demand that he “approach the bench.” There, he’d be admonished for lying to the jury. If he continued with the lie or did it again, a judge could hold Cipollone in contempt, or even declare a “mistrial” and force the whole process to start again.
>
> Chief Justice John Roberts has no such power here. …
[https://www.thenation.com/article/cipollone-impeachment-lies/](https://www.thenation.com/article/cipollone-impeachment-lies/)
In addition to the blatant lying, Roberts is also witnessing the Senators’ contempt for the ‘stay silent’ instructions read out by the Sergeant at Arms each day. (They may not be gabbing in the chamber, but they’re gabbing plenty outside, including giving FoxNews interviews.) Plus he gets to watch them get up and leave, or if seated, play with fidget spinners or work crossword puzzles.
So I’m guessing that Roberts is not so much bored, as he is disgusted. Imagine anyone conducting themselves this way in a Supreme Court oral-argument session!
---
### Author:  [@Ann\_Hedonia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ann_Hedonia)
#### Post date: [January 24, 2020, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-trial/846524/253 "2020-01-24T02:02:09Z")
> [@drad\_dog](#):
>
> Chain of command is mandatory in orgs like LE and the military for obvious reasons. Sometimes you even get “topped” for violating it, depending on the theater of the violation. It has to do with protocol: both going up the chain and going down.
>
> It was not appropraite if he is sandbagging his own foreign office about it, and holding up our money.
Besides, even if it’s not being entered as evidence into this trial - we know that Rudy Guliani, who was instrumental in this off-the-books investigation, has always specifically claimed he was working for the President in a personal capacity. And that’s in documented in contemporaneous writings, although I guess we don’t know if they’ll be able to admit those documents.
And I don’t think private citizen Donald Trump has any more authority to ask Ukraine for a favor than private citizen Max S. or private citizen Ann Hedonia does.
---
### Author:  [@Ann\_Hedonia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ann_Hedonia)
#### Post date: [January 24, 2020, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-trial/846524/254 "2020-01-24T02:14:05Z")
> [@MulderMuffin](#):
>
> I want to know how my senator is behaving. My state’s one of those that’s been gerrymandered into a red state despite the actual population makeup. My senator often shows up on TV spouting nonsense. I’d like to be able to call him out if he can’t even sit still and listen for a few hours at a time and pretend that all this matters.
Go check out his Twitter account. If it’s like my senator’s account, people that are watching will notice him being inattentive or leaving the room, and post it and call him out. And they’ll also notice when he tweets when he should be listening.
And you can scold him and blow off some steam while you’re there. It makes always me feel a little better.
ETA: I’m a little confused. I know they gerrymander house seats, but how do you gerrymander a Senate seat? Doesn’t each state get two that serve the entire state?
---
### Author:  [@drad\_dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drad_dog)
#### Post date: [January 24, 2020, 2:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-trial/846524/255 "2020-01-24T02:23:11Z")
> [@Ann\_Hedonia](#):
>
> Besides, even if it’s not being entered as evidence into this trial - we know that Rudy Guliani, who was instrumental in this off-the-books investigation, has always specifically claimed he was working for the President in a personal capacity. And that’s in documented in contemporaneous writings, although I guess we don’t know if they’ll be able to admit those documents.
>
> And I don’t think private citizen Donald Trump has any more authority to ask Ukraine for a favor than private citizen Max S. or private citizen Ann Hedonia does.
Sorry, Ann, but under the “idiot king” doctrine if there is any exculpatory explanation for anything he ever did, you need to prove that he was not thinking about it (at the time you are trying to demonstrate his crime occurred). Thanks for trying. Good luck in the future.
---
### Author:  [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)
#### Post date: [January 24, 2020, 3:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-trial/846524/256 "2020-01-24T03:14:54Z")
Thinking about it, I think that the strongest argument that the Democrats could and should make is to the Republicans about the result if they vote to back Trump.
If you help a murderer to hide the body, you’re complicit. That murderer knows that you did it. He holds that over you.
Today, to at least some extent, the Senate holds control over Donald Trump.
After this trial, they will not. He will own them. And not only will he own them, they will have set the precedent of zero compliance with Congress and okayed it, doubling up on the damage.
If they take this path, they aren’t failing to punish Donald Trump for being the corrupt moron that he is, they’re giving him the keys to the kingdom. And he’ll still be that same corrupt moron. Every Republican senator is choosing to slit his own throat, and to do it with a knife carved out of frozen feces.
---
### Author:  [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)
#### Post date: [January 24, 2020, 3:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-trial/846524/257 "2020-01-24T03:46:31Z")
So, now the Republicans embark on a point by point rebuttal, refuting all the witnesses, documents, etc? Or do they just issue a Declaration of Nunh-UH and call it a day?
---
### Author:  [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)
#### Post date: [January 24, 2020, 6:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-trial/846524/258 "2020-01-24T06:47:53Z")
> [@elucidator](#):
>
> So, now the Republicans embark on a point by point rebuttal, refuting all the witnesses, documents, etc? Or do they just issue a Declaration of Nunh-UH and call it a day?
[Probably something along these lines…](https://search.yahoo.com/yhs/search?ei=UTF-8&hspart=mozilla&hsimp=yhsm-002&p=joe%20pesci%20my%20cousin%20vinny%20opening%20statement&type=ios)
---
### Author:  [@Lord\_Feldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Feldon)
#### Post date: [January 24, 2020, 7:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-trial/846524/259 "2020-01-24T07:45:06Z")
> [@elucidator](#):
>
> So, now the Republicans embark on a point by point rebuttal, refuting all the witnesses, documents, etc? Or do they just issue a Declaration of Nunh-UH and call it a day?
I’m guessing it will be like the Kavanaugh hearing but longer. Just one big primal scream aimed at whipping the base up into a frenzy.
---
### Author:  [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)
#### Post date: [January 24, 2020, 7:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-trial/846524/260 "2020-01-24T07:54:05Z")
> [@elucidator](#):
>
> So, now the Republicans embark on a point by point rebuttal, refuting all the witnesses, documents, etc? Or do they just issue a Declaration of Nunh-UH and call it a day?
I would expect that they’ll repeat what they wrote.
To summarize: They’ll assert a reality that uses cherry-picked facts, presented out of context, which are convenient to them and completely ignore everything else. Any facts which are inconvenient or damning do not exist.
It is the Trump mantra. Assert the reality you desire and when the little kid steps up to point out the emperor’s nudity, the emperor ignores him and everyone else ignores him since it’s not like they didn’t all already know.
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