# The Trump Impeachment Trial
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-trial/846524
**Category:** Politics & Elections
**Created:** [January 16, 2020, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-trial/846524 "2020-01-16T20:12:52Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 33
### Author:  [@MulderMuffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MulderMuffin)
#### Post date: [January 31, 2020, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-trial/846524/641 "2020-01-31T00:28:26Z")
> [@Sherrerd](#):
>
> Schiff made a proposal today that would kill off the “months-long trial” bugaboo:
>
> [Schiff Offer to GOP: One Week For Witness Depositions](https://www.mediaite.com/politics/adam-schiff-makes-offer-to-republicans-limit-witness-depositions-to-one-week/)
> It’s a smart move, because it takes away the main excuse Republicans have been making to their constituents. Now they won’t be able to say (without fear of contradiction, anyway) ‘I voted down witnesses because a yes vote would mean a trial that dragged on and on.’
>
> Schiff is talking about it again, right this minute, by the way.
Plot twist! I love it. I have to say, whether the Democrats win or the United States loses, no one can say that the House managers didn’t put up one hell of a good fight. They have been thorough, eloquent, and as strategic as the format allows.
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### Author:  [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)
#### Post date: [January 31, 2020, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-trial/846524/642 "2020-01-31T00:33:38Z")
> [@MulderMuffin](#):
>
> and as strategic as the format allows.
That’s the part that may get them the loss.
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### Author:  [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)
#### Post date: [January 31, 2020, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-trial/846524/643 "2020-01-31T00:34:32Z")
CNN reporting that Alexander will announce his position on witnesses tonight. He was seen coming out of a meeting with Murkowski. That vote is tight.
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### Author:  [@Sherrerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sherrerd)
#### Post date: [January 31, 2020, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-trial/846524/644 "2020-01-31T00:57:19Z")
> [@MulderMuffin](#):
>
> Plot twist! I love it. I have to say, whether the Democrats win or the United States loses, no one can say that the House managers didn’t put up one hell of a good fight. They have been thorough, eloquent, and as strategic as the format allows.
As things stand, the Senate is poised to offer absolute power to a moron who doesn’t realize that stealth aircraft aren’t actually invisible:
> [@](#):
>
> President Donald Trump said Thursday his administration is giving “strong consideration” to deploying F-35 aircraft to Selfridge Air National Guard Base in Harrison Township.
> Trump made the comment during a 32-minute speech at Dana Inc.'s Warren plant …
>
> But Trump mentioned the F-35 about eight minutes into the address. Selfridge could be seeing “a lot of very fast planes,” he said.
> “Actually, they will be stealth, so maybe you won’t see them,” Trump added.
[Trump: 'Strong consideration' to deploying F-35 aircraft at Selfridge](https://www.detroitnews.com/story/news/politics/2020/01/30/trump-strong-consideration-deploying-f-35-aircraft-selfridge/2858499001/)
The Senate is about to make it virtually impossible to remove this man from office.
And while we’re all watching that revolting display of pro-authoritarian obsequiousness, William Barr has been a busy bee:
> [@](#):
>
> Attorney General William P. Barr on Thursday named former federal prosecutor Timothy Shea as the District’s interim U.S. attorney.
> Shea, 59, c **urrently serves as a counselor to Barr** at the Justice Department. He will oversee the nation’s largest U.S. attorney’s office with 300 prosecutors.
>
> … The U.S. attorney’s office in the District is unique in that it **handles both local and federal cases** , from violent crimes in the city to high-level national security and public corruption prosecutions. Prosecutors there have taken to trial Trump’s former confidant Roger Stone and former campaign chairman Paul Manafort, along with former Obama White House counsel Gregory Craig. **They are managing a grand jury investigation into former acting FBI director Andrew McCabe** , who is accused of misleading federal investigators about a media disclosure, and are handling a leak case in which **they have focused at least some of their questioning on former FBI director James B. Comey. Comey and McCabe have been outspoken critics of Trump** , and the D.C. U.S. attorney’s office has faced criticism that it is unfairly targeting the president’s political rivals. …
[https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/public-safety/attorney-general-william-p-barr-names-timothy-shea-one-of-his-counselors-as-the-districts-interim-us-attorney/2020/01/30/446fe6a6-4303-11ea-b503-2b077c436617\_story.html](https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/public-safety/attorney-general-william-p-barr-names-timothy-shea-one-of-his-counselors-as-the-districts-interim-us-attorney/2020/01/30/446fe6a6-4303-11ea-b503-2b077c436617_story.html)
(My emphasis.)
This will make smoothing the path for Mr. _Thinks-Air-Force-Has-Invisible-Planes_, much, much easier. Critics will quake in their boots—or more likely, people will know that they had damn well better stop saying anything critical at all.
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### Author:  [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)
#### Post date: [January 31, 2020, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-trial/846524/645 "2020-01-31T01:23:14Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#):
>
> Then why two trials? And, particularly, why two trials even when run by a genuine court of law?
Good question. Now it’s my turn to selectively quote Federalist No. 65:
"_The prosecution of [the subjects of an impeachment trial], for this reason, will seldom fail to agitate the passions of the whole community, and to divide it into parties more or less friendly or inimical to the accused. In many cases it will connect itself with the pre-existing factions, and will enlist all their animosities, partialities, influence, and interest on one side or on the other; and in such cases there will always be the greatest danger that the decision will be regulated more by the comparative strength of parties, than by the real demonstrations of innocence or guilt._
[…]
_Would it be proper that the persons who had disposed of his fame, and his most valuable rights as a citizen in one trial, should, in another trial, for the same offense, be also the disposers of his life and his fortune? Would there not be the greatest reason to apprehend, that error, in the first sentence, would be the parent of error in the second sentence? That the strong bias of one decision would be apt to overrule the influence of any new lights which might be brought to vary the complexion of another decision? Those who know anything of human nature, will not hesitate to answer these questions in the affirmative; and will be at no loss to perceive, that by making the same persons judges in both cases, those who might happen to be the objects of prosecution would, in a great measure, be deprived of the double security intended them by a double trial._"
Emphasis on that last part, which is a direct answer to your question straight from Mr. Hamilton himself. Wouldn’t it be _unwise_ to put every official at the mercy of a partisan Congress, not only for their position, but also for their life and limb?
One of the themes I have noticed in Constitutional sources is a deep distrust of mob rule and factionalism, sort of as a counterbalance to the deep distrust of monarchs and nobility. Our current form of government was intended to be a compromise between the two extremes, as demonstrated by the founding fathers themselves when presented with the French Revolution.
It is worth noting that the original impeachments of the English tradition were punitive in nature. Everybody except the King (Charles I excluded, he was impeached and executed in 1649) was subject to the threat of impeachment and could be fined, imprisoned, or even killed. The House of Lords would get to decide whatever punishment they saw fit, if I remember correctly.
Almost immediately upon revolting the newly independent states wrote impeachment into their own state constitutions. For example, [New York’s 1776 constitution art. XXXIII](https://avalon.law.yale.edu/18th_century/ny01.asp) contains a section almost word for word identical to the present U.S. Const. art. I sec. 3 cl. 7. I am nearly certain the clause was adopted straight from that source [URL=[https://avalon.law.yale.edu/18th\_century/debates\_806.aspin](https://avalon.law.yale.edu/18th_century/debates_806.aspin) the original draft of the Constitution, art. XI sec. 5, from August 6, 1787.
~Max
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### Author:  [@sps49sd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sps49sd)
#### Post date: [January 31, 2020, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-trial/846524/646 "2020-01-31T02:27:56Z")
> [@Sherrerd](#):
>
> Schiff made a proposal today that would kill off the “months-long trial” bugaboo:…
Schiff already demonstrated his idea of fair, and could have called anyone relevant during the House investigation. There is zero chance any Republican senator will discuss any deals with him.
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### Author:  [@drad\_dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drad_dog)
#### Post date: [January 31, 2020, 2:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-trial/846524/647 "2020-01-31T02:34:02Z")
> [@sps49sd](#):
>
> Schiff already demonstrated his idea of fair, and could have called anyone relevant during the House investigation. There is zero chance any Republican senator will discuss any deals with him.
I thought it was the dems who refused the corrupt irrelevant horse trading. It’s self impeaching to do that, on the same damned issue that this is being tried over.
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### Author:  [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)
#### Post date: [January 31, 2020, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-trial/846524/648 "2020-01-31T02:38:32Z")
> [@Max\_S](#):
>
> Emphasis on that last part, which is a direct answer to your question straight from Mr. Hamilton himself. Wouldn’t it be _unwise_ to put every official at the mercy of a partisan Congress, not only for their position, but also for their life and limb?
a) Congress is not the Supreme Court, so I wouldn’t say that it’s an answer to the question. I agree that, in the case of a Congressional trial, they are not well suited to also trying a criminal case, if a criminal trial is also necessary. It would make sense to split off any legal questions to elsewhere. That does not work for the Supreme Court, though.
b) More importantly, he’s giving a reason to not hold a criminal trial in Congress, which again implies that the trial which is being held is not criminal, since he accepts that it can be held it Congress.
c) He also still gives no indication that there’s any world in which a single trial would be sufficient, so it is not an answer to the question. If the idea is that the act being prosecuted must be criminal, the standards of the trial most conform to criminal standards, etc. then there is no reason to hold two trials. There is no value when it would be the same question asked under the same standards and procedures.
The ramifications of a double trial in different locations is answered by Hamilton. He does not answer why there are TWO trials.
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### Author:  [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)
#### Post date: [January 31, 2020, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-trial/846524/649 "2020-01-31T03:04:50Z")
Last question was telling from Murkowski and Alexander: Even if what Bolton says was true, it is not impeachable.
I’ll predict it now. No witnesses: 51-49
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### Author:  [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)
#### Post date: [January 31, 2020, 3:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-trial/846524/650 "2020-01-31T03:29:16Z")
> [@UltraVires](#):
>
> Last question was telling from Murkowski and Alexander: Even if what Bolton says was true, it is not impeachable.
>
> I’ll predict it now. No witnesses: 51-49
I remain amazed at your dedication to following the details of the partisan fighting of the Impeachment, yet, at the same time avoiding the questions asked of you in this thread or taking a stand as to your judgment of the propriety of not calling witnesses for the trial.
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### Author:  [@drad\_dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drad_dog)
#### Post date: [January 31, 2020, 3:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-trial/846524/651 "2020-01-31T03:55:22Z")
Collins just said she is voting for witnesses.
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### Author:  [@Fiveyearlurker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiveyearlurker)
#### Post date: [January 31, 2020, 4:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-trial/846524/652 "2020-01-31T04:10:15Z")
Alexander is no. Says Trump totally did it, but so what.
Really thought that the people joking that Republicans would eventually argue that the president did it, but so what were exaggerating. But here we are.
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### Author:  [@Locrian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Locrian)
#### Post date: [January 31, 2020, 4:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-trial/846524/653 "2020-01-31T04:11:13Z")
If it’s a tie, I’m sort of hoping Roberts just takes the mic and farts in it. Really long one. Frrrrrrrraaaaaaaaaaaaaaap!
It seems appropriate while watching all the GOP nonsense.
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### Author:  [@Happy\_Lendervedder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Lendervedder)
#### Post date: [January 31, 2020, 4:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-trial/846524/654 "2020-01-31T04:20:35Z")
Anyone have an official (or as official as can be gotten by us common folk) whip count on the witness vote?
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### Author:  [@Fiveyearlurker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiveyearlurker)
#### Post date: [January 31, 2020, 4:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-trial/846524/655 "2020-01-31T04:24:21Z")
For what it’s worth, both sides are not equally bad. Anyone who thinks that Democrats would act the way Republicans have is delusional.
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### Author:  [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)
#### Post date: [January 31, 2020, 4:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-trial/846524/656 "2020-01-31T04:24:26Z")
> [@Happy\_Lendervedder](#):
>
> Anyone have an official (or as official as can be gotten by us common folk) whip count on the witness vote?
50-No
49-Yes
1-Murkowski, undecided
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### Author:  [@MulderMuffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MulderMuffin)
#### Post date: [January 31, 2020, 4:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-trial/846524/657 "2020-01-31T04:26:29Z")
> [@Happy\_Lendervedder](#):
>
> Anyone have an official (or as official as can be gotten by us common folk) whip count on the witness vote?
As for the four Republican senators we have been watching, Collins says yes, Alexander says no, Romney says nothing yet, and Murkowski (I probably butchered the spelling there) says she’ll think about it overnight.
It’s not looking hopeful for witnesses unless some dark horse comes forward.
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### Author:  [@Happy\_Lendervedder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Lendervedder)
#### Post date: [January 31, 2020, 4:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-trial/846524/658 "2020-01-31T04:30:36Z")
Muchas gracias.
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### Author:  [@Locrian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Locrian)
#### Post date: [January 31, 2020, 5:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-trial/846524/659 "2020-01-31T05:17:48Z")
[Alexander says NO!](https://www.cnn.com/2020/01/30/politics/senate-impeachment-trial-second-day-of-questions/index.html)
So, that’s it. Let’s wait for Shithead’s triumphant tweets.
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### Author:  [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)
#### Post date: [January 31, 2020, 5:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-trial/846524/660 "2020-01-31T05:54:44Z")
> [@Locrian](#):
>
> [Alexander says NO!](https://www.cnn.com/2020/01/30/politics/senate-impeachment-trial-second-day-of-questions/index.html)
>
> So, that’s it. Let’s wait for Shithead’s triumphant tweets.
To be fair, it’s possible that they all vote to impeach. Saying, “I already made up my mind.” Doesn’t mean, “I already made up my mind in a way that is favorable to the defendant.”
… In theory.
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