### Author:  [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)
#### Post date: [January 31, 2020, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-trial/846524/681 "2020-01-31T18:06:39Z")
Like I said, future elections will be
Warren D-India
Devos R-Russia
… if **UltraVires** and the rest of the people who follow this purposeful anti-democracy argument get their way.
And, as I noted months ago, it’s not even a principal of Democracy but a principal of **sovereignty** to disallow the use of foreign agents to interfere with the internal politics of your own country - shit, it doesn’t matter _what_ type of government one has! The Republicans are engaging in Fall of the Roman Empire level shit here, and they can’t see this because they’ve been so infused with the Culture of Selfishness that they, literally, cannot look beyond the financial comfort of their time here on Earth.
Question: If Mcconnell has the votes on witnesses, why are the GOP still talking about the possibility of this going into next week, or longer? Why are they not… voting?
Oh, well. They’ll get the votes, then Trump will be a monarch, and that will be it.
You know… if they threw over American Democracy for, say, Warren Buffet or Bill Gates… maybe I would understand? Maybe? But for someone like Donald Trump… the mind just boggles.
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### Author:  [@Fiveyearlurker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiveyearlurker)
#### Post date: [January 31, 2020, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-trial/846524/682 "2020-01-31T18:09:52Z")
Shouldn’t Joe Biden release a statement immediately after Trump’s acquittal asking Iran to obtain Trump’s tax returns for release and offer sanction relief in return? As long as he thinks he is better for the country than Trump, this is now just fine.
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### Author:  [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)
#### Post date: [January 31, 2020, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-trial/846524/683 "2020-01-31T18:14:29Z")
> [@Fiveyearlurker](#):
>
> Don’t worry, Rubio took it a [step further:](https://medium.com/@SenatorMarcoRubio/my-statement-on-the-presidents-impeachment-trial-9669e82ccb43)
>
> “Just because actions meet a standard of impeachment does not mean it is in the best interest of the country to remove a President from office.”
“He really should be impeached. But I’m not man enough to do it.”
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### Author:  [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)
#### Post date: [January 31, 2020, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-trial/846524/684 "2020-01-31T18:16:55Z")
I think they got the votes. It’s over. Murkowski is a no.
>
>
> geof koss @geofkoss
“Murkowski spokeswoman confirms she will vote “NO” on witnesses, statement coming shortly.”
I’m sure she’ll be amply rewarded.
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### Author:  [@Fiveyearlurker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiveyearlurker)
#### Post date: [January 31, 2020, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-trial/846524/685 "2020-01-31T18:17:08Z")
> [@JohnT](#):
>
> “He really should be impeached. But I’m not man enough to do it.”
I think he also realizes that he might be called upon, in the future, to vote in favor of impeaching a Democratic president, and this is his out when that day comes. THIS time the impeachable offenses make it better for the country to remove the president, but not that last time.
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### Author:  [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)
#### Post date: [January 31, 2020, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-trial/846524/686 "2020-01-31T18:27:14Z")
> [@Ravenman](#):
>
> It does not assume a criminal act, because the words Hamilton used very clearly states that the matter at hand is “the abuse or violation of some public trust.”
>
> Since there’s no common law crime prohibiting “the abuse or violation of some public trust,” as a general matter, the literal words Hamilton uses is in direct contradiction to what you’re saying here. I mean, we can navel-gaze all we want, but the “abuse… of a public trust” doesn’t sound like a clear violation of statute or common law. A “violation of public trust,” sure, maybe… but not “abuse.”
>
> In addition, Hamilton did not write that offenders SHALL be subject to traditional criminal proceedings after removal from office. He wrote: “… he will still be liable to prosecution and punishment in the ordinary course of law.” In the event this happens, it is prejudicial to have the Supreme Court reconsider the same charges they already convicted him of to dispose the political matter, and then deal with the same charges in a criminal matter if it came to that. In other words, a criminal violation is obviously something that would bring impeachment to the fore, but Hamilton also describes a general misuse of power that goes beyond this contorted position that the president’s lawyers are advocating.
You are leaving out some words.
> [@Part of Federalist 65](#):
>
> The subjects of its jurisdiction are those **offenses** which proceed from the misconduct of public men, or, in other words, from the abuse or violation of some public trust.
Bolding mine. Those offenses, those crimes which proceed from…
If the President drives drunk or beats on his wife, then those are offenses or crimes, but are not ones which “proceed from the misconduct of public men” or are “from the abuse or violation of some public trust.” If the President accepts a bribe to support a new airport construction bill, then that is an offense which indeed proceeds from “misconduct of public men.” After all, nobody is paying me money for a new airport because I am not a “public man.”
I’m not sure how your quoting this means that Dersh is wrong.
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### Author:  [@Fiveyearlurker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiveyearlurker)
#### Post date: [January 31, 2020, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-trial/846524/687 "2020-01-31T18:30:45Z")
Murkowski is a no because Elizabeth Warren [hurt her feelings](https://twitter.com/AndrewDesiderio/status/1223309581457203201/photo/1).
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### Author:  [@MulderMuffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MulderMuffin)
#### Post date: [January 31, 2020, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-trial/846524/688 "2020-01-31T18:32:14Z")
Schiff went there. He went straight there. He called out Cipollone right to his face over the Bolton story that came out today talking about an Oval Office meeting where Trump asked Bolton to set up a meeting between Rudy and Zelensky, with Mulvaney and Cipollone in attendance.
It won’t make a difference in the outcome, I’m sure, but it sure was satisfying to witness. If only the camera could have caught Cippolone’s face…
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### Author:  [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)
#### Post date: [January 31, 2020, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-trial/846524/689 "2020-01-31T18:34:12Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#):
>
> Free _ **REIN** _.
>
> That is all.
You’re not my mom! ☹
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### Author:  [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)
#### Post date: [January 31, 2020, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-trial/846524/690 "2020-01-31T18:40:36Z")
> [@Fiveyearlurker](#):
>
> Murkowski is a no because Elizabeth Warren [hurt her feelings](https://twitter.com/AndrewDesiderio/status/1223309581457203201/photo/1).
She’s the same ditz who got melted when Schiff read CBS’s report about Trump saying the GOP Senators heads would be on pikes.
When Trump does put her head on a pike, her feelings will be hurt even worse.
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### Author:  [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)
#### Post date: [January 31, 2020, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-trial/846524/691 "2020-01-31T18:42:11Z")
> [@Buck\_Godot](#):
>
> And also that the false claim that the house rejected all witnesses has been repeated by the Trump defenders ad nauseam.
While they conveniently ignore that Republicans control two organizations (Senate and Dept of Justice) with authority to investigate and subpoena witnesses. If there was exculpatory evidence, Republicans could get it.
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### Author:  [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)
#### Post date: [January 31, 2020, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-trial/846524/692 "2020-01-31T18:45:05Z")
> [@Fiveyearlurker](#):
>
> Murkowski is a no because Elizabeth Warren [hurt her feelings](https://twitter.com/AndrewDesiderio/status/1223309581457203201/photo/1).
How can you characterize that statement as “Elizabeth Warren hurt her feelings”? It doesn’t mention Warren. It doesn’t mention her feelings.
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### Author:  [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)
#### Post date: [January 31, 2020, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-trial/846524/693 "2020-01-31T18:46:07Z")
All right, what time is the vote? That’s all I want to know…
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### Author:  [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)
#### Post date: [January 31, 2020, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-trial/846524/694 "2020-01-31T18:50:09Z")
> [@Fiveyearlurker](#):
>
> Murkowski is a no
> [@](#):
>
> “Given the partisan nature of this impeachment from the very beginning and throughout, I have come to the conclusion that there will be no fair trial in the Senate.”
“So no point in my doing anything about it.”
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### Author:  [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)
#### Post date: [January 31, 2020, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-trial/846524/695 "2020-01-31T18:51:10Z")
> [@MulderMuffin](#):
>
> Schiff went there. He went straight there. He called out Cipollone right to his face over the Bolton story that came out today talking about an Oval Office meeting where Trump asked Bolton to set up a meeting between Rudy and Zelensky, with Mulvaney and Cipollone in attendance.
>
> It won’t make a difference in the outcome, I’m sure, but it sure was satisfying to witness. If only the camera could have caught Cippolone’s face…
Oh, that’s the case clincher right there. A meeting. With his attorney in attendance. I changed my mind. Guilty!
Do you guys really hear yourselves? I’m not trying to be disrespectful, but this whole case has been like this. Breathtaking revelations about…nothing at all!
Again, it all stems from the fact that you hate Trump, think he is corrupt, and therefore everything he does must be corrupt. Anything he does is spun with the worst possible imputation, most of them not even reasonably spun from the relevant facts.
I’m glad this will be done today.
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### Author:  [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)
#### Post date: [January 31, 2020, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-trial/846524/696 "2020-01-31T18:51:26Z")
> [@UltraVires](#):
>
> I’m not sure how your quoting this means that Dersh is wrong.
I think there’s a consensus in the legal community that Desh is wrong.
> [@Fiveyearlurker](#):
>
> Murkowski is a no because Elizabeth Warren [hurt her feelings](https://twitter.com/AndrewDesiderio/status/1223309581457203201/photo/1).
Well, I’m not defending Murkowski on her reasoning, but that was a fucking stupid question from Warren. Stupid in conception, stupid in the point it was trying to make, and stupid to ask it.
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### Author:  [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)
#### Post date: [January 31, 2020, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-trial/846524/697 "2020-01-31T18:52:45Z")
> [@UltraVires](#):
>
> Oh, that’s the case clincher right there. A meeting. With his attorney in attendance. I changed my mind. Guilty!
>
> Do you guys really hear yourselves? I’m not trying to be disrespectful, but this whole case has been like this. Breathtaking revelations about…nothing at all!
>
> Again, it all stems from the fact that you hate Trump, think he is corrupt, and therefore everything he does must be corrupt. Anything he does is spun with the worst possible imputation, most of them not even reasonably spun from the relevant facts.
>
> I’m glad this will be done today.
Since you obviously don’t read my posts:
> [@](#):
>
> And, as I noted months ago, it’s not even a principal of Democracy but a principal of **sovereignty** to disallow the use of foreign agents to interfere with the internal politics of your own country - shit, it doesn’t matter what type of government one has
---
### Author:  [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)
#### Post date: [January 31, 2020, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-trial/846524/698 "2020-01-31T18:53:45Z")
> [@Ravenman](#):
>
> I think there’s a consensus in the legal community that Desh is wrong.
>
> Well, I’m not defending Murkowski on her reasoning, but that was a fucking stupid question from Warren. Stupid in conception, stupid in the point it was trying to make, and stupid to ask it.
But even more stupid to base ones vote for the allowance of witnesses on it.
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### Author:  [@Akaj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Akaj)
#### Post date: [January 31, 2020, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-trial/846524/699 "2020-01-31T18:56:13Z")
> [@UltraVires](#):
>
> Again, it all stems from the fact that you hate Trump, think he is corrupt, and therefore everything he does must be corrupt. Anything he does is spun with the worst possible imputation, most of them not even reasonably spun from the relevant facts.
So you believe the actions he undertook – which Alexander and others have acknowledged have been truthfully described – are \*not \*corrupt? I’d be curious to hear what you think constitutes corruption.
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### Author:  [@Fiveyearlurker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiveyearlurker)
#### Post date: [January 31, 2020, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-trial/846524/700 "2020-01-31T19:04:35Z")
> [@UltraVires](#):
>
> How can you characterize that statement as “Elizabeth Warren hurt her feelings”? It doesn’t mention Warren. It doesn’t mention her feelings.
I forgot that Republicans don’t understand paraphrasing.
The second to last paragraph is pretty clearly about Elizabeth Warren. And she mentions her “sad”, which is a feeling.
I’m not sure there is any alternate explanation, but I’m all ears.
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