# The Trump Middle East Peace Plane **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 29, 2020, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-middle-east-peace-plane/847143 "2020-01-29T01:25:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2020, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-middle-east-peace-plane/847143/41 "2020-01-30T19:39:45Z")
> **[Opinion | Why the ‘Jordanian Option’ Won’t Die (Published 2018)](https://www.nytimes.com/2018/09/21/opinion/israel-peace-plan-jordan-kushner.html)** > > A confederation of the West Bank and Jordan is once again under discussion. Is it such a bad idea? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2020, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-middle-east-peace-plane/847143/42 "2020-01-30T19:50:08Z")
One of these days, I’ll have to bite the bullet and buy my way past the New York Times paywall. It’s not a _big_ bullet, of course, I spend more each week on electricity just from being too lazy to shut my computer off. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2020, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-middle-east-peace-plane/847143/43 "2020-01-30T20:14:17Z")
Hey, I haven’t paid for it either. For some reason, I can read the NYT for free on my phone, but not on my PC. Anyway, look up “The Jordanian Option”. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2020, 3:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-middle-east-peace-plane/847143/44 "2020-01-31T03:38:39Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Anyway, Israel would love it if the Jordanians and Egyptians took responsibility for the Territories. The Palestinians, not so much. Well, yeah, if by “took responsibility for” you mean “declared sovereignty over and denied the indigenous inhabitants self-determination”. The Palestinians in general don’t want to be Jordanians or Egyptians living in “West Jordan” or “East Egypt”. They want to be citizens of their native land. ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2020, 5:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-middle-east-peace-plane/847143/45 "2020-01-31T05:30:33Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > The Palestinians in general don’t want to be Jordanians or Egyptians living in “West Jordan” or “East Egypt”. They want to be citizens of their native land. Witness for example [Black September](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_September). ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2020, 8:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-middle-east-peace-plane/847143/46 "2020-01-31T08:53:21Z")
Black September - which was the Jordanians’ response to an attempted coup by the PLO - is one of the reasons why the _Jordanians_ don’t want unification with the West Bank > [@Kimstu](#): > > Well, yeah, if by “took responsibility for” you mean “declared sovereignty over and denied the indigenous inhabitants self-determination”. The Palestinians in general don’t want to be Jordanians or Egyptians living in “West Jordan” or “East Egypt”. They want to be citizens of their native land. The problem is, they define their “native land” as including places like Tel Aviv and Haifa, which they’re never going to control and never going to return to. Considering that they’re never going to get everything they want, being party of a a unified Palestine-Jordan, or being citizens of a regional power like Egypt, sounds like a pretty good solution. Maybe not in terms of national rights, but definitely in terms of individual rights. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2020, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-middle-east-peace-plane/847143/47 "2020-01-31T15:59:32Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Well, yeah, if by “took responsibility for” you mean “declared sovereignty over and denied the indigenous inhabitants self-determination”. The Palestinians in general don’t want to be Jordanians or Egyptians living in “West Jordan” or “East Egypt”. They want to be citizens of their native land. Keep in mind countries like Jordan, Lebanon, Syria etc have no history of strong national identity. These countries didn’t exist in their modern form until the 1940s. Before that they were within provinces of the Ottoman Empire (and after the Empire collapsed they spent a generation under Western “protection”), and lots of those provinces had their boundaries redrawn regularly. Not to mention historically a significant portion of their ancestors lived a bedouin lifestyle with no fixed homes. These were societies much more centered around day to day life being built around a clan/tribal customary system. Interaction with their Ottoman suzerains was kept to a minimum for the mutual benefit of both sides. For this particular reason it’s always been patently obvious if the West was going to impose a European conception of modern Nationstate-hood on peoples who had never really lived under that paradigm, we could’ve done a lot better job crafting these states and their boundaries than we did. At this point the Palestinians have been occupied and disempowered for so long that it’s actually probably caused them to develop a sort if national identity, albeit one based around mutual misery. I don’t think it’s a realistic solution in 2020 but back in 47-48 they definitely should’ve just had the lands that make up Palestine be grouped with the other various Arab states that surround Israel. The UN Mandate lines for Israel/Palestine were essentially guaranteed to never work. ---
**Author:** ![Mike\_Mabes](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mike_mabes/32/1782_2.png) [@Mike\_Mabes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mike_Mabes)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2020, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-middle-east-peace-plane/847143/48 "2020-01-31T21:29:14Z")
just realized the thread title says “plane” and not “plan”. OP are you subtly suggesting what Kusher really wants - to put them on a plane and get them the hell out of there? LOL The plan is bound to work. As Kushner said, “Previous plans were 2-3 pages. Ours is 80 pages with a map. Never been done before” I’m not joking. > ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2020, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-middle-east-peace-plane/847143/49 "2020-02-01T02:56:13Z")
> [@Mike\_Mabes](#): > > just realized the thread title says “plane” and not “plan”. OP are you subtly suggesting what Kusher really wants - to put them on a plane and get them the hell out of there? LOL > > The plan is bound to work. As Kushner said, “Previous plans were 2-3 pages. Ours is 80 pages with a map. Never been done before” > > I’m not joking. > > [https://twitter.com/i/status/1222516374427316224](https://twitter.com/i/status/1222516374427316224) How can someone with so much money be so stupid? ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2020, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-middle-east-peace-plane/847143/50 "2020-02-01T15:30:32Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > How about we get someone with experience started with honest negotiations Yes, that has worked swell every time it’s been tried. ---
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2020, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-middle-east-peace-plane/847143/51 "2020-02-01T17:17:04Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > Yes, that has worked swell every time it’s been tried. That is true – experienced diplomats and negotiators haven’t been able to come up with a solution. So now, we are also able to say that a solution eludes a feckless inexperienced rich guy with an agenda. ---
**Author:** ![TonySinclair](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/49beb7/32.png) [@TonySinclair](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TonySinclair)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2020, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-middle-east-peace-plane/847143/52 "2020-02-01T17:19:42Z")
> [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](#): > > I see I managed to mangle another thread title. First priority is to get rid of the motherfuckin snakes. ---
**Author:** ![Mosier](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ea924/32.png) [@Mosier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mosier)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2020, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-middle-east-peace-plane/847143/53 "2020-02-02T20:32:00Z")
So the Palestinians get: [ul] [li]A “High-tech manufacturing industrial zone” and “Residential and Agricultural zone” in an area that is currently literally just a bunch of sand dunes;[/li][li]About 70% of the West Bank (and literally 100% of the coastline) annexed by Israel;[/li][li]Zero sources of freshwater;[/li][li]No right of return;[/li][li]Complete disarmament and no legal authority to enforce border control;[/li][li]No right to Jerusalem.[/li][/ul] This offer was not made in good faith, even as the starting point to a “meet in the middle” future agreement. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2020, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-middle-east-peace-plane/847143/54 "2020-02-02T22:25:26Z")
It really is shamelessly cynical. Those zones are tossed in so that on an extremely superficial level, it looks like a big get for the Palestinians. But nobody’s paying for that. No way. And how many businesses are going to rush in there if they did? ---
**Author:** ![Horatius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/horatius/32/3572_2.png) [@Horatius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatius)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2020, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-middle-east-peace-plane/847143/55 "2020-02-03T16:19:33Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > How can someone with so much money be so stupid? The money is part of what lets them be stupid. If you or I made a mistake that cost us $10,000 to fix, we’d make damn sure to never make that mistake again. But for a rich idiot, that’s just pocket change. He can keep making that stupid mistake for _years_ before it has any actual impact on his life. ---
**Author:** ![RioRico](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f04885/32.png) [@RioRico](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RioRico)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2020, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-middle-east-peace-plane/847143/56 "2020-02-03T21:59:48Z")
One or more major Mideastern cities will eventually be nuked and the problem will go away, replaced by new woes. Has Jared’s ridiculous scheme bought time before the inevitable disaster, or does it only provoke crazies? ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2020, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-middle-east-peace-plane/847143/57 "2020-02-04T02:17:12Z")
> [@RioRico](#): > > One or more major Mideastern cities will eventually be nuked and the problem will go away, Run that by again? ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2020, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-middle-east-peace-plane/847143/58 "2020-02-04T03:11:47Z")
AFAICT **RioRico** is suggesting that the region in question will become uninhabitable due to a nuclear attack, thereby “solving” the problem in a _“solitudinem faciunt, pacem appellant”_ sense. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2020, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-middle-east-peace-plane/847143/59 "2020-02-04T14:45:33Z")
Every now and then some movie comes out where an ordinary schlub finds himself in charge of a country; “Dave” was a good example. In these movies, the schlub’s common sense approach to some problem proves eminently superior to the insiders. Here we have a perfect example of why that’s a bunch of crap. Kushner is, in the true sense of the term, an ignoramus. He is a stupid man whose understanding of the subject has been scraped together from a few books and Wikipedia in the last year or so, and his effort to solve this intractable problem is incredibly stupid (and, to a large extent, probably heavily influenced by others, though he likely is too dumb to know that.) His response is of course the response of a stupid and self-entitled man; he’s angry that people don’t seem to be going along with his idea. The fantasy of an outsider sweeping in and fixing huge problems with a dollop of common sense is just that, a fantasy. It’s not how the world works, in part because ignorance of the subject isn’t a good thing but also because the idea of one person fixing things with a single idea is equally stupid, no matter who it is. Kushner is a rich boy dumbass, but it wouldn’t matter if he was a genius; the very idea of “my idea is the right one and I’m right and you’re all wrong because I’m right” is inherently doomed to fail. ---
**Author:** ![orcenio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/orcenio/32/1036_2.png) [@orcenio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/orcenio)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2020, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-middle-east-peace-plane/847143/60 "2020-02-04T15:50:02Z")
I dunno the dude has read 25 books on the region. [Jared Kushner’s incompetence is surpassed only by his arrogance](https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2020/02/03/jared-kushners-incompetence-is-surpassed-only-by-his-arrogance/) > [@](#): > > Whatever he does, Kushner brings endless, unearned self-confidence to the task — including his unlikely role as a Middle East peacemaker. “Speaking to a room full of Middle East experts,” wrote Robert Satloff of the Washington Institute for Near East Policy in May 2019, “Kushner was boldly dismissive of the concept of expertise. Asked about his definition of success and the potential implications of failure, he brushed it off as a ‘Washington question.’” > > After the peace plan was released last week, Kushner bragged that he had “read 25 books” on the Middle East. Granted that is more books then I read on the region, but probably much less books then his priors have written. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-middle-east-peace-plane/847143.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-middle-east-peace-plane/847143.md?page=4)