The Truth about KAL 007 Shootdown?

[Telemark]

@Fleetwood

KCIA?

Presumably the Korean CIA.

[lisiate]

Until 1999 the National Intelligence Service went by the name Korean Central Intelligence Agency..

For what it’s worth, I think the shooting down of Iran Air Flight 655was a worse mistake than KAL 007.

[Amateur_Barbarian]

@eschereal

Umm, what? You have a curious definition of “near”, about like saying that Tucson is near Cleveland.

I was… misinformed. They’re near if you’re bopping around GE.

ETA: looking at the info, it looks like there *is *one of those (abandoned) installations quite close to Chernobyl, but the radar that was supposedly the target of the KAL-007 inflight was (1) another in eastern Siberia and (2) never completed or operational. I guess the joke was on them…

[aldiboronti]

@Amateur_Barbarian

The second book, The Target Is Destroyed, was a careful investigation by an author who actually spoke with high-ranking Russian air force commanders in charge of the area at the time and others deeply in the know, and concluded it was a multi-person SNAFU with horrifying consequences. But that’s Seymour Hersh for ya.

I don’t understand that final comment. It was a multi-person SNAFU with horrifying consequences, wasn’t it?

[lisiate]

I think the comment means that Seymour Hersh has a (deserved) reputation for undertaking careful investigations, not a criticism of Hersh’s justifiable conclusion.

[Jonathan_Chance]

I believe he’s saying that Hersh - one of the worlds greatest journalists - nailed that one, got it right, was on target, and so forth. “That’s Seymour Hersh for you, he gets it right.”

[Suicide]

see what i mean? a lot of the info that’s been posted here re kal007 is contradictory or incomplete, i think there’s still a lot about this we don’t know, that’s all i’m sayin’

does anyone know about the electric shaver angle, where the soviets turned one on to make it sound like interference on a radio transmission? that was on thc too, when the reds had that pseudo press conference after the shootdown to explain what happened and they claimed there was interference on a broadcast and it was faked with a razor

[DrFidelius]

Good Lord! Officials lie during a press conference to cover their fuck-up! Stop the presses!

[jtur88]

@SenorBeef

The problem is that it isn’t the Hitler channel at all anymore. It was 15 years ago, when it was good. Now it’s the Ancient Aliens channel.

I thought it was the Pawn Shop / Alligator Wrestling Channel now.

[GreedySmurf]

There’s an episode of Air Crash Investigations (Called Mayday in the States I believe) which covers the downing of the flight. Very informative about the incident.

[Lemur866]

Hey, I’d pay to see an alligator wrestle a pawn shop.

I’m not sure what the OP is looking for.

Did the Soviets know it was a commercial airliner that was off course, but decide to shoot it down anyway just to keep everyone on their toes?

Was it really a spyplane disguised as a commercial airliner, complete with fake/real passengers who really/not-really died when the plane was shot down?

Or was it really a commercial airliner that the Soviets mistakenly thought was a spyplane, so they shot it down, which was a mistake because it wasn’t a spyplane, and then Soviet and American officials said various untrue things about how the mistake happened?

Cause the last explanation seems pretty clearly correct. Yes, there is contradictory information because various people made various false statements about what happened because they had some pretty strong incentives not to tell the truth. Yes, there is incomplete information because various people kept various things secret, and because no historical incident can be completely documented.

[Leo_Bloom]

Kudos to the Barbarian for “credulous.” Good word.

[carnivorousplant]

@lisiate

For what it’s worth, I think the shooting down of Iran Air Flight 655was a worse mistake than KAL 007.

I agree.

[Diceman]

@lisiate

For what it’s worth, I think the shooting down of Iran Air Flight 655was a worse mistake than KAL 007.

I don’t know how you determine which was “worse.” Both were pretty big mistakes. Both could have been prevented if someone had taken a monent to say, “Hold on a minute. Can we try to verifiy what it is we’re about to shoot down?”

And FWIW, I was taught that the War of 1812 was largely inconsequential. I didn’t know the US tried to invade Canada until well into adulthood.

[carnivorousplant]

@Diceman

I don’t know how you determine which was “worse.” Both were pretty big mistakes. Both could have been prevented if someone had taken a monent to say, “Hold on a minute. Can we try to verifiy what it is we’re about to shoot down?”

And FWIW, I was taught that the War of 1812 was largely inconsequential. I didn’t know the US tried to invade Canada until well into adulthood.

The Iran airliner was in Iran airspace.

I didn’t know about 1812 until I was an adult. Makes you wonder about schools serving the state, or ignorance of teachers.

I did have a Junior High Teacher, and extremely stupid woman, teach us that the Pilgrims landed in Salem, Oregon.

[lisiate]

@Diceman

I don’t know how you determine which was “worse.” Both were pretty big mistakes. Both could have been prevented if someone had taken a monent to say, “Hold on a minute. Can we try to verifiy what it is we’re about to shoot down?”

And FWIW, I was taught that the War of 1812 was largely inconsequential. I didn’t know the US tried to invade Canada until well into adulthood.

Confusing a passenger jet with a working transponder flying along a recognised commercial route to Dubai while in its own countries airspace with an F-14on attack is a worse error than confusing a passenger jet miles off course passing over your own airspace with a large reconnaissance plane.

[Kobal2]

@Suicide

History Channel did a show about the War of 1812 and said the U.S. didn’t win it, the war was a tie…a tie? we never learned that in grade school

the brits were trying to invade, either they’re successful or they’re not, they weren’t, that sounds like a win to me

Well, they did burn down the WH and the Capitol. That’s 50 points right there.

Canadians tend to see the war as a big win for them as well, since the US didn’t manage to take over what was already its hat (maybe more of a newsie cap at the time ?). That’s probably what the “tie” is about : yeah, the redcoats didn’t manage to invade for good, but the counter-attack failed too and in the end the status quo ante bellum was restored when neither party had it in them to keep on keeping on.

That certainly looks like a nil-nil draw to me. A true “win” for the US would have involved the annexation of at least one maple syrup farm.

[Colibri]

@Diceman

And FWIW, I was taught that the War of 1812 was largely inconsequential. I didn’t know the US tried to invade Canada until well into adulthood.

@carnivorousplant

I didn’t know about 1812 until I was an adult. Makes you wonder about schools serving the state, or ignorance of teachers…

@Kobal2

Well, they did burn down the WH and the Capitol. That’s 50 points right there.

Canadians tend to see the war as a big win for them as well, since the US didn’t manage to take over what was already its hat (maybe more of a newsie cap at the time ?). That’s probably what the “tie” is about : yeah, the redcoats didn’t manage to invade for good, but the counter-attack failed too and in the end the status quo ante bellum was restored when neither party had it in them to keep on keeping on.

That certainly looks like a nil-nil draw to me. A true “win” for the US would have involved the annexation of at least one maple syrup farm.

Moderator Note

engineer_comp_geek has already given instructions in post #15 to drop the hijack about the War of 1812. If you really want to discuss it, open another thread. Let’s keep this one on track about KAL 007.

Colibri
General Questions Moderator

[md2000]

It wasn’t the “White” house until our side burned it so badly that they couldn’t get the smoke stains off, so they whitewashed it - a coverup technique that has worked for Washington (DC, not General) ever since. The Brits marched to Washington, burned things, and skedaddled. They tried to take New Orleans and failed. The Americans tried to take Canada, but lost big time other than a little slum clearance along the Toronto (sorry, York) waterfront. A tie, neither side got what they wanted, except maybe the Brits were a bit more circumspect about raiding US ships for “deserters”.

As for KAL, the soviet pilots apparently made visual contact with the aircraft. However, it was similar to the AWACS type spy plane that had been trolling the shoreline just outside the limit for months. IIRC they were both basically 4-engine large jets, 707 or some such. Someone said "didn’t they notice the windows all lit up, the nav lights, etc.? Which suggests they should have known what a military plane would be lit like; plus apparently the chase planes approached from the rear and below, less likely to see commercial markings, and at night probably most cabin lights would be dim and the blinds down. Apparently the military spy plane had been in the area around the same time or something.

I don’t really blame the CIA/USAF/NSA since clearly it’s their right to troll for intelligence in international airspace. the Russians were more likely confused and felt insulted rather than mercenary about the incident.

Just to make things more interesting, a few years earlier a KAL plane had left Europe, somehow made a 180 over the arctic (gotta love those Asian navigation instruments!) and ended up being forced down on a frozen lake in northwestern Russia. Maybe the Russians were getting paranoid.

Oh, and the Iranian plane? The last captain who assumed the approaching jet(s) were harmless got an Exocet mid ships and a court martial. Surely a lesson to shoot at anything suspicious rather than assuming they were harmless.

[md2000]

And the Iranian jet shoot down maybe lessened the tension in the region. The Iranian government assumed that the rest of the world would be shocked and outraged at the USA only to have most nations sing a variation of the tune about “those who live by the sword…” it hastened a stepdown in the general level of tension in the Gulf.