# The Truth Fish Eating the Darwin Fish **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 30, 2001, 2:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-truth-fish-eating-the-darwin-fish/74189 "2001-07-30T02:57:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Novus\_Opiate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/858c86/32.png) [@Novus\_Opiate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novus_Opiate)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2001, 2:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-truth-fish-eating-the-darwin-fish/74189/1 "2001-07-30T02:57:32Z")
This is a little offshoot of the “Dammit, mom, quit trying to endoctrinate my son!!” thread started by OpalCat. Anyway… I live in the “bible belt” and see these bumper emblem things with the truth fish eating the darwin fish… ugh, where to start with this. I’ve never really understood how people can doubt the veracity of Darwin’s Theory of Evolution… I mean, is it really so implausible that he who lives longest reproduces most, thus becoming a more and more dominate species. ok, break it down into parts… make it simple for yourself. OK. 1. Mutations occur. Yep. Check. It’s true. 2. These Mutations may be beneficial, malignant, or neutral. 3. These mutations can effect the life of said creature 4. Creatures that are aided by their mutations will live better/longer/nuture better, etc, than their non-evolved ancestors. 5. more offspring = domination ok, did i miss anything major here? when is this truth going to finally rid us of this ridiculous theory seemingly composed of so much common sense? I find myself anxiously awaiting the truth… ok, i feel better. i have a hard time with people ignoring the obvious. until next time, Novus Opiate - Coming Soon To A Board Near You ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Zero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c4cdca/32.png) [@Saint\_Zero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Zero)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2001, 3:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-truth-fish-eating-the-darwin-fish/74189/2 "2001-07-30T03:01:53Z")
> [@](#): > > I mean, is it really so implausible that he who lives longest reproduces most, thus becoming a more and more dominate species. ok, break it down into parts… So, does this mean Cockroaches are the dominate life form? Sharks? Alligators? 😃 ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2001, 3:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-truth-fish-eating-the-darwin-fish/74189/3 "2001-07-30T03:14:33Z")
Just two minor points. Firstly, the whole darwin fish thing is ridiculous. So some Christians put an ixthus on their cars. So fucking what? Whom does it harm? I have a bumper sticker from Red Hook beer on my car, some folks advertise their club affiliation, or their fave bands, or whatever. How does it help an athiest or scientific cause to deliberately co-opt and ridicule the symbol? (Sorry, Jab, I still love you, man.) Secondly, **Novus** , please do me a favor and grab a more detailed understanding of evolution, willya? [http://www.talkorigins.org](http://www.talkorigins.org) is a great place to start. ---
**Author:** ![Annie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/858c86/32.png) [@Annie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2001, 3:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-truth-fish-eating-the-darwin-fish/74189/4 "2001-07-30T03:15:03Z")
The my-belief-system-can-beat-up-your-belief-system tone of those stickers just seems so, um, _unChristinan_ to me. Whereas the Darwin-eating-fishie one strikes me as quite consistant with the philosophy. ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2001, 3:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-truth-fish-eating-the-darwin-fish/74189/5 "2001-07-30T03:18:26Z")
> [@](#): > > Firstly, the whole darwin fish thing is ridiculous. So some Christians put an ixthus on their cars. So fucking what? Whom does it harm? _{shrug}_ One could just as easily ask “whom does the Darwin fish harm?” ---
**Author:** ![erislover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/71e660/32.png) [@erislover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/erislover)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2001, 3:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-truth-fish-eating-the-darwin-fish/74189/6 "2001-07-30T03:38:42Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by andros \* > Secondly, **Novus** , please do me a favor and grab a more detailed understanding of evolution, willya? [http://www.talkorigins.org](http://www.talkorigins.org) is a great place to start. I dunno, I’m interested in seeing you give a better treatment to evolution in 50 words or less. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_Torque](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e9bcb4/32.png) [@Max\_Torque](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_Torque)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2001, 3:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-truth-fish-eating-the-darwin-fish/74189/7 "2001-07-30T03:39:50Z")
What I find funny about the “Truth Fish eating Darwin Fish” thing is: isn’t the larger fish eating the smaller fish itself an illustration of natural selection in action? ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Cynical](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ee59a6/32.png) [@Mr.Cynical](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Cynical)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2001, 3:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-truth-fish-eating-the-darwin-fish/74189/8 "2001-07-30T03:52:31Z")
I’d like to see a little Devil jabbing a pitchfork into the Jesus fish. That’s just me, though. ---
**Author:** ![pesch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pesch/32/4925_2.png) [@pesch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pesch)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2001, 4:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-truth-fish-eating-the-darwin-fish/74189/9 "2001-07-30T04:01:33Z")
**Novus** seems to have a grip of evolution quite nicely, considering it’s the Reader’s Digest Condensed version. I could suggest why both sides feel threatened by the other. We’re social creatures, and despite all our talk about being independent, we’re not quite the go-it-alone types as we might think. We’re very much influenced by what goes on around us. It’s only natural to feel threatened, or perceive ourselves as being ridiculed by others whose beliefs don’t match ours. Especially when those beliefs may be in complete opposition. More so when they’re “in our face” as in the case of bumper stickers. Personally, I don’t have a problem reconciling both evolution and religion. I’m amazed that, somehow, all creatures have been ‘programmed’ with behaviors that attempt to improve the species’ chance of survival. ---
**Author:** ![Bill\_H](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a5b964/32.png) [@Bill\_H](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bill_H)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2001, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-truth-fish-eating-the-darwin-fish/74189/10 "2001-07-30T04:09:46Z")
what **erislover** said. ---
**Author:** ![Feathers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a9a28c/32.png) [@Feathers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Feathers)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2001, 4:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-truth-fish-eating-the-darwin-fish/74189/11 "2001-07-30T04:23:14Z")
**Manservant Hecubus** heheheheheheheheeheheeh ^-^ ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2001, 4:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-truth-fish-eating-the-darwin-fish/74189/12 "2001-07-30T04:50:12Z")
> [@](#): > > What I find funny about the “Truth Fish eating Darwin Fish” thing is: isn’t the larger fish eating the smaller fish itself an illustration of natural selection in action? Well, from the original [Christian fish](http://www.hartco-eng.com/content/novelties-christianfish.htm)–which itself exists in [several](http://www.autoemblem.com/hazel-doc/specialty/1e1_fish.html) [different](http://generation.safeshopper.com/3/19.htm?778) [forms](http://www.bigairbrush.com/shop/product74.html)–we’ve recently seen an impressive degree of [speciation](http://www.evolvefish.com/fish/emblems.html), as the fish radiates into a variety of different ecological niches. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2001, 5:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-truth-fish-eating-the-darwin-fish/74189/13 "2001-07-30T05:14:24Z")
**MEB** , you’re right, of course. But I see it as a deliberate mockery of the Christian symbol. But neither of 'em keep me up nights. **erislover** and **bill** : :shrug: Perhaps I should have been more tactful. Apologies, **Novus**. Allow me to be more specific: 1. Darwin is to evolution as Johannes Kepler is to physics. That is, he was a brilliant thinker, and a foundation of the science, but not the whole of it. It is his theory no more than yours or mine. It might be pedantic of me, but I’ve found that citing “Darwin’s Theory of Evolution” is just begging for trouble. Evolution does not equal Darwinism; that’s a creationist trap that we cannot allow ourselves to fall into. 2. “Dominance,” however defined, is not an element of the theory. More adapted, yes, and more suited to an environment. But not more dominant (nor more complex, nor longer-lived). 3. Common sense is neither. 50 words? That way lies danger. No theory as complex as biological evolution can be expressed in any 50 words and withstand dedicated and determined ignorance, except in such broad terms that no specificity is possible. Providing an oversimplified and inaccurate description of evolution, with the holes filled in with “it’s just common sense,” will change no minds, and may in fact close them further. But, here’s 120 words for you as a start, from Douglas J. Futuyma (_Evolutionary Biology_, Sinauer Associates 1986) > [@](#): > > In the broadest sense, evolution is merely change, and so is all-pervasive; galaxies, languages, and political systems all evolve. Biological evolution … is change in the properties of populations of organisms that transcend the lifetime of a single individual. The ontogeny of an individual is not considered evolution; individual organisms do not evolve. The changes in populations that are considered evolutionary are those that are inheritable via the genetic material from one generation to the next. Biological evolution may be slight or substantial; it embraces everything from slight changes in the proportion of different alleles within a population (such as those determining blood types) to the successive alterations that led from the earliest protoorganism to snails, bees, giraffes, and dandelions. (Mr. Cyn, how about a Hassidic eating gefilte jesus fish?) ---
**Author:** ![JonScribe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/3be4f8/32.png) [@JonScribe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JonScribe)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2001, 5:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-truth-fish-eating-the-darwin-fish/74189/14 "2001-07-30T05:19:12Z")
Sirs, It has come to our attention that our Jesus Fish™ emblem has been co-opted by numerous and competing interests and employed for purposes other than originally intended. Because we feel that these attempts at parody could be mistakenly identified with our corporation, we seek the immediate cessation of all fish-related logos, emblems and bumperstickers that do not have express written permission from Trinity Corp. Failure to comply with this directive could lead to action including, but not limited to: plagues of locust, boils, barren wives, starvation, floods, wars and rumors of war, consumption by lions, blindness, swallowing by whales, destruction of olive orchards, demons being cast into your swine and damnation. We trust that you understand the seriousness of this matter and will address it with all haste. Sincerely, Jesus H. Christ, Esq. for Trinity Corp. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2001, 5:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-truth-fish-eating-the-darwin-fish/74189/15 "2001-07-30T05:21:21Z")
> [@](#): > > Jesus H. Christ, Esq. Ohhh shit. Jesus passed the bar. We’re fucked, folks. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![aurelian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f4b2a3/32.png) [@aurelian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aurelian)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2001, 5:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-truth-fish-eating-the-darwin-fish/74189/16 "2001-07-30T05:45:43Z")
> [@](#): > > I live in the “bible belt” and see these bumper emblem things with the truth fish eating the darwin fish… ugh, where to start with this. I’ve never really understood how people can doubt the veracity of Darwin’s Theory of Evolution… I mean, is it really so implausible that he who lives longest reproduces most, thus becoming a more and more dominate species. Here’s my attempt to answer, based on personal experience. I was raised in a _very_ conservative Christian church. My father was a member, so I had to follow him, three times a week to church (at least) until I hit my junior year of high school. No special significance to that year, I was just able to claim (with some truth) that I had too much homework to go. Thankfully, my dad valued education, unlike most of the members…but anyway… 1. Being raised in it, I didn’t question things. I know that sounds cliche, and it even conflicts with who I am (and was) outside of the faith…but nevertheless, I swallowed their explanations and justifications without thinking. Ten years ago, I had lots of ‘scientific’ ‘evidence’ as to why evolution was a lie. It never occured to me to think it may not be so; people who believed or promoted evolution were mistaken at best. So, in my case, at least, I automatically saw evolution (and lots of other things) as Wrong. 2. I was talking to a fundamentalist about evolution in undergrad (I had abandoned Christianity by then). He differentiated between micro- and macro-evolution, and, it’s the _macro_ version that he was opposed to. Saying that a fish’s fin may grow or shrink over generations depending on its habitiat? That was acceptable; it could be veiwed and interpreted as God’s wisdom in action, helping his creation to adapt. But to say that there were more radical changes, that was un-Christian. Personally, religious stuff on cars bothers me. You don’t care I’m an agnostic, I don’t care you’re a Christian. I think of that episode of Seinfeld where Elaine rips the Jesus fish off that guy’s (her bf’s?) car…heh ---
**Author:** ![erislover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/71e660/32.png) [@erislover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/erislover)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2001, 6:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-truth-fish-eating-the-darwin-fish/74189/17 "2001-07-30T06:00:45Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Novus Opiate \* > I live in the “bible belt” and see these bumper emblem things with the truth fish eating the darwin fish… ugh, where to start with this. I’ve never really understood how people can doubt the veracity of Darwin’s Theory of Evolution… Well, not being a bible thumper of course I cannot speak for them, but I see any number of interpretations for this. First, the “darwin fish,” while somewhat amusing to me, is really a slap in the face to people who are Christian and _do_ believe in evolution. Contrary to some people’s beliefs (let’s call them anti-fundamentalist fundamentalists) they (evolution and religion) can be grasped simultaneously. Second, the fish eating the Darwin fish might be a symbolic representation of this. As in, “Hey moron, who said I didn’t think evolution was factual?” Third, er… well, there really isn’t a third. ::checks that it is the PIT:: Fuck you. [I suck at flames] 😉 **andros** Well, calling someone on evolutionary theory in the pit just made me laugh, even if it was a little simplistic and misguided. 😃 I thought I was the only one who took [actual debates](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=77559) to the pit! Carry on. **aurelian** > [@](#): > > Personally, religious stuff on cars bothers me. :rolleyes: I hate that they’ve got so many darn colors available. I just **abhor** any form of expression! And don’t get me started about those dang hubcaps… ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2001, 6:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-truth-fish-eating-the-darwin-fish/74189/18 "2001-07-30T06:11:04Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by andros \* > **MEB** , you’re right, of course. But I see it as a deliberate mockery of the Christian symbol. But neither of 'em keep me up nights. Well, I’ve been personally assured by members of the Secular Humanist Supreme High Council that we’re still several years away from mandatory Darwin fish forehead tattoos. Seriously, yes, there’s an undeniable element of mockery in the Darwin fish. There are certainly far worse things than mockery and satire, and Christians have not been above mockery or ridicule in their critiques of other religions and worldviews. Looking at the sheer number of “\_\_\_\_\_\_ fish” that have sprung up, though, I think we’ve clearly moved beyond simple mockery and into the realms of co-optation–which is also something Christians have been wont to do in the past. (Christmas, anyone?) > [@](#): > > _Originally posted by erislover_ > First, the “darwin fish,” while somewhat amusing to me, is really a slap in the face to people who are Christian and _do_ believe in evolution. Contrary to some people’s beliefs (let’s call them anti-fundamentalist fundamentalists) they (evolution and religion) can be grasped simultaneously. > > Second, the fish eating the Darwin fish might be a symbolic representation of this. As in, “Hey moron, who said I didn’t think evolution was factual?” I don’t suppose anyone can say that no one has used that bumper sticker with the intent to convey that meaning, but I’m pretty sure that most people driving around with the “Truth Fish Eating the Darwin Fish” stickers intend it to mean “Creationism beats Evolution”–and by “creationism” I mean most likely Young Earth Creationism, or some variant of creationism which is not very compatible with the findings of science. I think it’s at least as likely that some people with Darwin fish are actually Christian theistic evolutionists–it could be seen as a synthesis of Darwin and the original Jesus fish, no? I suppose someone should really come out with an “ICHTHYS” fish with feet, if they haven’t already done so. ---
**Author:** ![aurelian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f4b2a3/32.png) [@aurelian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aurelian)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2001, 6:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-truth-fish-eating-the-darwin-fish/74189/19 "2001-07-30T06:28:47Z")
Erislover > [@](#): > > I hate that they’ve got so many darn colors available. I just abhor any form of expression! And don’t get me started about those dang hubcaps… Oh, jesus h f\*\*\*\*\*\* christ, thank gawd you understand! I detest any form of self-expression, and that was _exactly_ what I meant! Hey, were _YOU_ expressing yourself just then? sheesh. I was saying I didn’t like something. I don’t bitch at people about it, I don’t vandalize cars, I was. just. saying. I grew up a fundie that preached to people…I am the last person that wants to force my beliefs on someone. You didn’t need to be so harsh about it. ---
**Author:** ![erislover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/71e660/32.png) [@erislover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/erislover)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2001, 6:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-truth-fish-eating-the-darwin-fish/74189/20 "2001-07-30T06:32:38Z")
> [@](#): > > I think it’s at least as likely that some people with Darwin fish are actually Christian theistic evolutionists–it could be seen as a synthesis of Darwin and the original Jesus fish, no? Hey, yeah. Make that my “thirdly.” 😃 **aurelian** I apologize, but this is probably the wrong place to be so sensitive. Generally, anyway. And I’m pretty sure I knew what you meant. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-truth-fish-eating-the-darwin-fish/74189.md?page=2)