# The Truth Is We Are All Animals, so... **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 10, 2010, 7:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-truth-is-we-are-all-animals-so/549800 "2010-08-10T07:08:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Pink\_Majik\_Trix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/e8c25b/32.png) [@Pink\_Majik\_Trix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pink_Majik_Trix)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2010, 9:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-truth-is-we-are-all-animals-so/549800/21 "2010-08-10T09:11:04Z")
> [@GHO57](#): > > Yes. But then again, it’s a trade-off. In order to reap the benefits of being a part of a society, we have to comply to the restrictions it poses on our behavior. There’s always the possibility of choosing to belong to a subculture that expresses different norms; in the case of sexual liberation…swingers, bdsm-scene… or some sort of a free love commune, or less conservative parts of Europe :D. Interactions within those subcultures follow different rules, on the flip-side, they don’t offer the same benefits society at large does. > > Take the killing thing for an example; you could join a gang, then killing wouldn’t be so frowned upon, you could even be socially rewarded for it… but their dental plan sucks. Same thing can be seen in nature… a troop of chimps will impose restrictions of the members; certain shows of aggression are allowed, while others are not. You can challenge the leader in order to take his place… and you can intimidate individuals that are competing for position with you; on the other hand, unprovoked attacks, attacks on the young, attacks that go beyond intimidation/dominance displays will turn the whole troop against you. Protection of the troop against predators, resource sharing… or being able to do what you want, when you want. _shrug_ Not dying alone and starving seems to be surprisingly popular choice. > > Incidentally, most of the group compliance in chimps isn’t inborn, it’s learned. Young chimps are socialized the same way human children are; they experiment and are instructed by the older members what is acceptable, which they in turn pass on to their young. Human societies work the same way, only they are several orders of magnitude more complex. > > The simplest thing in human behavior comparable to chimp socialization I can think of would be putting your hand to someone’s face. Babies reach up to their mother’s face, and the hand is removed… there’s often no need to even verbalize the restriction for it to be learned. Try face-palming a total stranger… it feels wrong. Not because there’s some objective reason for avoiding it… but because we’re social animals and trained to avoid it. Or step in a elevator with people and stand with your back to the doors. There’s no external source of morality dictating the correct orientation, it’s just how we’re wired. > > …oh man I’m long winded… sorry. Interesting post. You contributed a lot, appreciate that. So basically, everything is a matter of choice. Choices that are cause and effect, which determine your position and role in society. If I kill someone tonight, it’s not right or wrong, just cause and effect? ---
**Author:** ![Pink\_Majik\_Trix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/e8c25b/32.png) [@Pink\_Majik\_Trix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pink_Majik_Trix)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2010, 9:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-truth-is-we-are-all-animals-so/549800/22 "2010-08-10T09:13:42Z")
> [@InterestedObserver](#): > > What further “consequence” is required beyond the physical, on this earth consequences of being subjectively considered “bad” by those being killed, raped, otherwise injured? > > I mean, if this is it, all there is, and we are simply animals and nothing more, no heaven, no hell, no gods, no nothing but US in the physical realm, one life, that’s it and back into the great compost pile to be recycled, isn’t that an even STRONGER argument not to hurt one another and otherwise make life subjectively “good” and pleasant whenever possible? > > I think so. The rationale that there is something else waiting, a “better place”, has been used to justify so much suffering and “bad” stuff throughout human history…this by those who believed in consequences beyond this realm. > > I think the idea that this is IT folks is a powerful motivator to make THIS as “good” (as we subjectively consider that) as humanly possible. JMHO. Nicely put. Inspiring post IMO. ---
**Author:** ![InterestedObserver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/838e76/32.png) [@InterestedObserver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/InterestedObserver)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2010, 9:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-truth-is-we-are-all-animals-so/549800/23 "2010-08-10T09:31:45Z")
I should add (missed the edit window) that if, indeed, this is it and there is nothing else, then we, humans, are the highest authority, and so our subjective understanding of “good” and “bad” are actually sort of the final word on the matter, wouldn’t you say? (Obviously ignoring the possibility of extraterrestial life forms more advanced or as advanced and simply holding different viewpoints, of course…but it’s too damn late/early to get into extraterrestial philosophy ;)) The only other thing which could possibly trump our views or result in any consequences beyond those we impose upon ourselves (through suffering or social penalty) would be a God/non-physical realm. Therefore, the subjective, “meaningless” distinctions WE make between good and bad, right and wrong are the ONLY ones which matter or could possibly HAVE any meaning. If nothing really matters, then we get to decide what we pretend does based on how well it works for us or not. Does that make any sense? 😕 ---
**Author:** ![GHO57](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/df788c/32.png) [@GHO57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GHO57)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2010, 10:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-truth-is-we-are-all-animals-so/549800/24 "2010-08-10T10:10:35Z")
> [@Pink\_Majik\_Trix](#): > > Interesting post. You contributed a lot, appreciate that. > > So basically, everything is a matter of choice. Choices that are cause and effect, which determine your position and role in society. > > If I kill someone tonight, it’s not right or wrong, just cause and effect? No, it \*\*is \*\*(most likely) wrong… the problem is that right and wrong only have meaning in a cultural context. The act is either acceptable or unacceptable, based on how society views it. Morality itself is fluid depending on time an place… even today, in the US in certain situations it’s acceptable; war, self-defense… accident. Kill someone tonight by dropping a hammer when you’re working on your roof, it’s an accident. Kill someone today who’s trying to kill you, it’s self-defense. Kill someone today just for fun, it’s murder. Kill someone today that’s breaking into your house, it’s either self-defense (in states with castle doctrine laws), or a murder (in some degree in those states that don’t) Kill an indian in the early 1800’s, it’s pest control and you get a reward. Kill a slave in ancient Rome, it’s destruction of property. The act itself doesn’t change (you causing the death of another human), the “wrongness” of the act changes based on time, location, and circumstances. ---
**Author:** ![MrBerious](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MrBerious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrBerious)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2010, 12:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-truth-is-we-are-all-animals-so/549800/25 "2010-08-10T12:48:51Z")
Desmond Morris thinks we have sex in private so jealously doesn’t tear our little tribes apart. But he has a lot of funny ideas so take that with a grain of salt. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2010, 1:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-truth-is-we-are-all-animals-so/549800/26 "2010-08-10T13:04:08Z")
In direct response to the OP: Sex is a big deal because sex leads to pregnancy and having babies, and that’s a big deal. At least, in the absence of reliable birth control you run that risk, and our “instinctual” attitudes and taboos toward sex were built into us long before reliable birth control became available. And compared to other animals, human babies require a lot more time and care before they become mature and self-sufficient. Also unlike other animals, human beings think about the future consequences of their actions. For the record, I do believe in the existence of an objective morality, and in God, but I what I wrote above is just as relevant if you don’t. ---
**Author:** ![Laudenum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7993a0/32.png) [@Laudenum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Laudenum)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2010, 1:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-truth-is-we-are-all-animals-so/549800/27 "2010-08-10T13:18:42Z")
> [@InterestedObserver](#): > > Eh, I have no religious or moral hangups specifically related to sex itself. (have a few ethical principles re’ honesty and not intentionally hurting others, though, which I see no reason to abandon, God or no God) > > I think there is an argument to be made for human society having certain rules (guidlines, if you’re a pirate ;)) surrounding sex…cheating/adultery is pretty generally “bad”, lying about your sexual health and infecting others is always “bad”, rape is a huge no-no, **as is child molestation**. WHY? We don’t need any God to justify such rules…they are considered wrong/bad simply because they HURT people. > > Same for rules frowning on killing people…absolutely no valid comparison between a wild carnivore killing an herbivore to eat and humans killing one another. Give me a break. :rolleyes: > > Again, no God needed for humans to figure out that it’s generally better NOT to go around killing one another and being killed on a whim. > > If you want to be sexually liberated, more power to you…but to be irresponsible, unsafe, violent or otherwise a douchebag and justify it as “we’re all animals, and right and wrong don’t exist so I can do whatever I want to whomever I want” is bullshit. Except that in previous societies, child molestation was ok (I think there is actually still an island tribe today where it is practiced), and rape was a normal part of warfare. Treating modern morals as eternal truths is myopic at best. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2010, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-truth-is-we-are-all-animals-so/549800/28 "2010-08-10T14:31:15Z")
I think instincts play a larger role than the social aspect. I think the OP’s question answers itself. We make a big deal about sex _because_ we’re animals. More specifically, we’re animals that have a long gestation period and an extremely long period of dependence upon parents. These factors mean that the same evolutionary forces that have gifted us with a desire for sex, sensitive organs that can give us orgasms etc, have given us certain apprehensions about just screwing anyone, as well as pair-bonding instincts. All this is particularly true for women, since screwing around would have been a successful strategy for many of our male ancestors. * * * Now, I know that a lot of people don’t like evolutionary descriptions like the one above, but I think it’s because they will interpret it as making a value judgement. I’m not doing that. The woman I’ve had strongest feelings for in my life was bisexual, reviewed sex toys for a magazine, and we had an open relationship. I’m no prude. But, the whole dating and mating game is pretty much dictated by how attraction works in women. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2010, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-truth-is-we-are-all-animals-so/549800/29 "2010-08-10T15:13:15Z")
We’ve existed as a species for about 200,000 years. During most of that time, when our social system evolved, we didn’t think we were just another animal. And the fact is, most of still don’t think we aren’t. It’s only the last 200 years or so that we’ve begun to understand that we’re just another animal. Some of us understand that, but not most of us. I don’t see what the mystery is… As for killing people, groups whose moral code considered it “no big deal” to kill another person would tend to die out pretty quickly. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2010, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-truth-is-we-are-all-animals-so/549800/30 "2010-08-10T16:33:14Z")
**Pink Majik Trix** , when you need to shit, do you just squat wherever you happen to be and do it? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2010, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-truth-is-we-are-all-animals-so/549800/31 "2010-08-10T16:57:27Z")
**Pink Majik Trix** , you’re kind of easy, aren’t you? ---
**Author:** ![Khaki\_Campbell](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/9de053/32.png) [@Khaki\_Campbell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Khaki_Campbell)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2010, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-truth-is-we-are-all-animals-so/549800/32 "2010-08-10T17:53:02Z")
> [@FriarTed](#): > > …let’s do it like they do on the Discovery Channel. In Science’s interest, I propose myself as a test subject, and the experiment is mating with Kari Byron. ---
**Author:** ![Khaki\_Campbell](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/9de053/32.png) [@Khaki\_Campbell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Khaki_Campbell)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2010, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-truth-is-we-are-all-animals-so/549800/33 "2010-08-10T20:03:17Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > **Pink Majik Trix** , you’re kind of easy, aren’t you? Like Sunday morning he is. ---
**Author:** ![Pink\_Majik\_Trix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/e8c25b/32.png) [@Pink\_Majik\_Trix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pink_Majik_Trix)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2010, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-truth-is-we-are-all-animals-so/549800/34 "2010-08-10T20:28:57Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > **Pink Majik Trix** , you’re kind of easy, aren’t you? Easy? That’s a matter of opinion. But I am dope! does that help? ---
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2010, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-truth-is-we-are-all-animals-so/549800/35 "2010-08-10T21:10:49Z")
> [@Pink\_Majik\_Trix](#): > > The truth is we are all animals so why do we have sex such a big deal. First of all, we are not animals. To enter the library where I’m typing this post, I had to walk through a door labeled “No animals allowed”. I can see others entering the door as I speak. I feel safe in predcting that you, **John Mace** , and even the members of PETA have walked through many such doors. So I can safely conclude that, though some people claim to be “just animals”, none of them actually believe it to be true. Humans are not animals. As for why sex is a such a big deal, it’s because common sense dictates that sex should be a big deal. Many groups throughout history have tried out a social system wherein sex can be practiced between any two persons without legal or social penalty or personal guilt. It happened in various cults in Ancient Greece and Rome, in fringe American communities such as those run by Isaac Bullard and John Noyes, in the hippy communes of the 60’s, and in many other places. The result is always the same: these societies quickly collapse. Free and uninhibited sex has been shown over and over to be a bad idea. Some say that it has something to do with procreation, but it does not. It’s easy to have sex in a way that carries no risk of procreation, but that doesn’t make the free love ideal any more plausible. The problem with that ideal has nothing to do with procreation, but rather with the fact that humans necessarily experience emotions such as anger, resentment, jealousy, guilt, and so forth, and these emotions often come up in relation to sexual matters. A stable social structure must manage these emotions, and a social structure of free love does not. > [@](#): > > Why continue to deprive yourself because of other people’s judgment rather then liberate yourself self-consciously and thus, sexually. When I made the decision to follow the Biblical teaching to be celibate until marriage and faithful within marriage, I didn’t deprive myself of anything. Quite the opposte. When I lived in an enivronment at college where many people participated in raunchy, promiscuous behavior, I could see that a lot of people were being prodded and bullied into doing things that they didn’t actually enjoy doing. That environment was depriving people of the enjoyment that can come from healthy, monogamous relationships. An environment that promotes monogamy is one that liberates. ---
**Author:** ![Pink\_Majik\_Trix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/e8c25b/32.png) [@Pink\_Majik\_Trix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pink_Majik_Trix)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2010, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-truth-is-we-are-all-animals-so/549800/36 "2010-08-10T21:30:01Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > > [@Pink\_Majik\_Trix](#): > > > > The truth is we are all animals so why do we have sex such a big deal. > > First of all, we are not animals. To enter the library where I’m typing this post, I had to walk through a door labeled “No animals allowed”. I can see others entering the door as I speak. I feel safe in predcting that you, **John Mace** , and even the members of PETA have walked through many such doors. So I can safely conclude that, though some people claim to be “just animals”, none of them actually believe it to be true. Humans are not animals. > > As for why sex is a such a big deal, it’s because common sense dictates that sex should be a big deal. Many groups throughout history have tried out a social system wherein sex can be practiced between any two persons without legal or social penalty or personal guilt. It happened in various cults in Ancient Greece and Rome, in fringe American communities such as those run by Isaac Bullard and John Noyes, in the hippy communes of the 60’s, and in many other places. The result is always the same: these societies quickly collapse. Free and uninhibited sex has been shown over and over to be a bad idea. > > Some say that it has something to do with procreation, but it does not. It’s easy to have sex in a way that carries no risk of procreation, but that doesn’t make the free love ideal any more plausible. The problem with that ideal has nothing to do with procreation, but rather with the fact that humans necessarily experience emotions such as anger, resentment, jealousy, guilt, and so forth, and these emotions often come up in relation to sexual matters. A stable social structure must manage these emotions, and a social structure of free love does not. > > > [@](#): > > > > Why continue to deprive yourself because of other people’s judgment rather then liberate yourself self-consciously and thus, sexually. > > When I made the decision to follow the Biblical teaching to be celibate until marriage and faithful within marriage, I didn’t deprive myself of anything. Quite the opposte. When I lived in an enivronment at college where many people participated in raunchy, promiscuous behavior, I could see that a lot of people were being prodded and bullied into doing things that they didn’t actually enjoy doing. That environment was depriving people of the enjoyment that can come from healthy, monogamous relationships. An environment that promotes monogamy is one that liberates. So you believe there was once a man that was moon walking on water? He died. then _POOF_ Came back to life? Is this what you believe? ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2010, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-truth-is-we-are-all-animals-so/549800/37 "2010-08-10T21:47:08Z")
> [@Pink\_Majik\_Trix](#): > > So you believe there was once a man that was moon walking on water? > > He died. then _POOF_ Came back to life? > > Is this what you believe? There are Christians who post here on the message board. If you’re genuinely interested in having a civil conversation that includes them then you might want to tone down your rhetoric a bit. We get it, you’re not a Christian and you think the whole thing is rather silly. Believe me, we’re all suitably impressed that you’re such a logical free thinker. Now we can move on. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2010, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-truth-is-we-are-all-animals-so/549800/38 "2010-08-10T21:50:19Z")
A young man who had recently passed his first wedding anniversary confided in his more experienced friend that there wasn’t much excitement left in his sex life. His friend told him that married couples often settle into a pattern and have to mix it up a little. He pointed at a pair of dogs coupling, and asked ‘When’s the last time you did it that way? That’s what nature intended. Try something a little different’. The next day he asked the young man how thing’s had gone with his wife the night before. The young man replied, ‘She didn’t have any trouble doing it doggy style, but it took a lot of Peppermint Schnapps to get her out on the front lawn’. ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2010, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-truth-is-we-are-all-animals-so/549800/39 "2010-08-10T22:32:20Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > As for killing people, groups whose moral code considered it “no big deal” to kill another person would tend to die out pretty quickly. Well, a moral code regarding other members of the group. Groups lacking a moral code about killing outsiders, on the other than, seem fairly prevalent, even if the scale of wanton killing is probably less than indicated by the more lurid histories. And because I can’t resist the opportunity to quote the goddess of alt-country music: _Pick up that rock, drink from that lake I do my best but I’m made of mistakes And there’s still a few things that I’m sure of. I love you this hour, this hour today, And heaven will smell like the airport. I may never get there to prove it, But let’s not waste our time thinkin’ how that ain’t fair But I’m an animal, you’re an animal, too._ [INDENT][INDENT][INDENT][INDENT][INDENT]-- Neko Case, “I’m An Animal”[/INDENT][/INDENT][/INDENT][/INDENT][/INDENT] Stranger ---
**Author:** ![Pink\_Majik\_Trix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/e8c25b/32.png) [@Pink\_Majik\_Trix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pink_Majik_Trix)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2010, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-truth-is-we-are-all-animals-so/549800/40 "2010-08-10T22:43:37Z")
> [@Odesio](#): > > > [@Pink\_Majik\_Trix](#): > > > > So you believe there was once a man that was moon walking on water? > > > > He died. then _POOF_ Came back to life? > > > > Is this what you believe? > > There are Christians who post here on the message board. If you’re genuinely interested in having a civil conversation that includes them then you might want to tone down your rhetoric a bit. We get it, you’re not a Christian and you think the whole thing is rather silly. Believe me, we’re all suitably impressed that you’re such a logical free thinker. Now we can move on. I have to tone down my rhetoric but he doesn’t? Kind of one sided scolding is it not? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-truth-is-we-are-all-animals-so/549800.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-truth-is-we-are-all-animals-so/549800.md?page=3)