# The Truth vs The Bible. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 15, 2003, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-truth-vs-the-bible/207492 "2003-10-15T01:36:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 15\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Kinthalis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kinthalis/32/16084_2.png) [@Kinthalis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kinthalis)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2003, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-truth-vs-the-bible/207492/41 "2003-10-15T23:24:39Z")
**mangeorge** I think you’re best bet is to talk to the parents. Let them know the kind of questions their duaghter is asking. Also let them know how you feel about the whole subject. Finally, ask them how they would like you to proceed. I’m saying this because it would be sad if the parents decide to take her out of your life for this. And hopefully, your influence will rub off on her as she grows older and wiser and with any luck she won’t turn out to be another svt4him, and instead will be an intelligent, logical, inquisitive young mind eager for knowledge. ---
**Author:** ![mangeorge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d78d45/32.png) [@mangeorge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mangeorge)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2003, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-truth-vs-the-bible/207492/42 "2003-10-15T23:41:59Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Latro \* > \*\*Please, **mangeore** start sooner than 16. > You don’t want to have her end up like _that_, now do you? \*\* No, I don’t want her to be like that. But she needs to gather more information before she has to deal with her grampa’s views on spirituality. Any discussion before she’s ready would be confrontational. She knows that, which is why she understands the wait. The 16 thing is simply a goal, not an unbreakable rule. If she really wants to talk before that, we will. She knows that. Sometimes kids don’t know what they’re asking until you tell them. Saying that if they’re old enough to ask, they’re old enough for the answer is a fallicy imo. We’re not talking about what makes the sky blue, ya know. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2003, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-truth-vs-the-bible/207492/43 "2003-10-16T00:12:56Z")
> [@](#): > > We’re not talking about what makes the sky blue, ya know. Obviously, God wanted the sky to match his seas. ---
**Author:** ![mangeorge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d78d45/32.png) [@mangeorge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mangeorge)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2003, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-truth-vs-the-bible/207492/44 "2003-10-16T00:27:26Z")
By the way, she was younger (by a couple of years) when I told her the magic age would be 16. These queries have been coming up since she was little. Some I answer, some I don’t. I’m surely _not_ going to “come up with an intellectually honest non-answer which will not threaten the foundations of her faith.” I love her way too much to do such a thing. I help her (and my other grandkids) develop a sense of morality without neccessarily relying on myth. That’s all. Her parents and I are not involved in some great tug-of-war. I’m working on them too. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Meatros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Meatros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meatros)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2003, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-truth-vs-the-bible/207492/45 "2003-10-16T00:40:01Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Mangetout \* > \*\*Where did STDs come from? \*\* 😃 Well, obviously they had to come from Noah-as well as every other **human** disease (especially if you discount evolution!). ---
**Author:** ![Grey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b782af/32.png) [@Grey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grey)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2003, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-truth-vs-the-bible/207492/46 "2003-10-16T01:33:14Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by gypsymoth3 \* > \*\*maybe Creation is hard to believe, but evolution is as well. > > as for the ark, have you ever considered these animals or at least some of them could’ve been babies… or even eggs? > > as for gays being an abomination, yeah, maybe they’re nice, but every command in the Bible had a logical purpose whether one believes it is divine or not. for example, the reason the jews were told not to eat pork was because they didn’t know how to cook it properly to kill the worms that can grow up to like 9 feet if i remember right in one’s intestines. one of the logical reasons not to be gay is because STDs are transmitted very easily between gay men, and its obviously not very healthy for them even if they don’t get diseases. \*\* Just…wow… As for evolution, it does not require belief. A little critical thinking, a whack load of empirical evidence and two synapse willing to fire at roughly the same time perhaps, but not belief. I’d suggest you use the search function and “Great Debates” as a forum and go read the thousands of threads started on evolution. Of course if your idea of an answer to difficult questions is “God did it, and God works in mysterious ways” then there is no point to this discussion at all. Enjoy your belief system. ---
**Author:** ![RexDart](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b77776/32.png) [@RexDart](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RexDart)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2003, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-truth-vs-the-bible/207492/47 "2003-10-16T02:43:40Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Tygr \* > \*\* > Furthermore, and I know this is a personal question, but are YOU a Christian? If not, do you think it’s wise to discuss weighty matters which you don’t have a full understanding of with a young and impressionable girl who is just starting out on her faith journey? > \*\* That “impressionable girl” is being fed a load of crap from the well-meaning morons around her. Only a complete moron with no reasoning skills whatsoever could possibly believe in the Noah/ark story. Alot of cultures have fanciful stories, and nobody would respect someone who believed lightning was created by Odin tossing bolts at the Giants, so why should similiar tall tales in Genesis get a pass? She’s already being brainwashed. So if he sees fit to counter that brainwashing by pointing out facts, I see no problem with that. > [@](#): > > \*\* > I trust your intent is _not_ to callously derail that journey for her, so perhaps you might consider deferring ALL God related questions she might put to you. I’m certain your erudition can come up with an intellectually honest non-answer which will not threaten the foundations of her faith. > \*\* If she asks him a genuine theological question, like “why does god let bad things happen to good people”, then maybe he should indeed refer her to someone in her religion who can give whatever crock-of-shit answer religions are giving to it nowadays. But if she asks him a question about the real world and its origins, then he ought to give the correct answer. That’s how kids learn. > [@](#): > > \*\* > However, seeing that scientific truth is so important to you, I think leading her on a journey of intellectual discovery would be HIGHLY admirable. And, again, should this quest of hers send her ideas that are at odds with Scripture, rather than trying to debunk the Word of God, perhaps the best idea might be to send her to discuss these with her spiritual leader (be it a parent or minister). Equip her fully with scientific facts so that she will be able to hold her own against any condescention. \*\* There’s only _one_ kind of truth. Something is true if it corresponds to the world as it objectively exists. Maybe she’ll eventually learn, like alot of Christians on this board who aren’t evangelical fundies, that the bible is not the totality of the religion, that it’s just a book of stories that is meant to embody the Jewish and/or Christian view of the relation between man and god. It doesn’t have to be factually true to do that any more than Jesus’ parables had to have happened to real people for them to possess a lesson. Educated people end up knowing alot of facts, and alot of those facts contradict the make-believe myths and stories of the bible. Unless this girl turns into a high school dropout, odds are she’ll eventually realize there was no Noah, no ark, none of that. \*\* > [@](#): > > Then let her make a choice about whether scientific truth is compatible with spiritual truth (maybe even point out that plenty of scientists seem to think so). And be prepared to accept it with full equanimity if she decides against scientific truth. \*\* Again, what are these two kinds of truth? The world is either one way or the other. Something is true, or it isn’t. There is either “true” or “false”. Something isn’t “spiritually true” or “scientifically true”, it’s just true or it isn’t. ---
**Author:** ![F.U.Shakespeare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/aca169/32.png) [@F.U.Shakespeare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/F.U.Shakespeare)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2003, 2:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-truth-vs-the-bible/207492/48 "2003-10-16T02:58:29Z")
**mangeorge** , your situation sounds eerily similar to mine: my brother and his wife are more religious than me, and when I talk to their bright ten-year-old son, my first rule is to _respect their authority as their son’s parents_ ( **Tygr** , since you are not an atheist, I presume you would refrain from answering any atheist relatives’ kids’ questions about the existence of God? Don’t wanna “callously derail” their quest for the truth, do you?) Our conversations involve a lot of, “Well, Mark, a lot of people believe (A). And a lot of people believe (B).” Etc. I will _not_ lie to the kid – that would be _almost_ as bad as saying his parents are wrong, which I will _never_ do, at least until the kid is old enough to drink, vote, and maybe rent a car. And even then, only with my back to the wall. **Svt4Him** , I’m still waiting for a cite on those 11-foot skeletons. (_Human_ skeletons – I know there were dinosaurs over eleven feet long. ;)) My two cents: proclamations like yours, asserting falsehoods that you want to be true, thwart the goals of the sincerely religious. **gypsymoth3** , you have a point. On the other hand, I know of _no_ gay men who have procured (or undergone) abortions. If you are pro-life, you must conclude: _we heterosexuals are evil._ ---
**Author:** ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2003, 10:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-truth-vs-the-bible/207492/49 "2003-10-16T10:20:48Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by gypsymoth3 \* > \*\*one of the logical reasons not to be gay is because STDs are transmitted very easily between gay men, and its obviously not very healthy for them even if they don’t get diseases. \*\* Gee, I can’t wait to tell my husband how illogical and unhealthy our relationship is, in spite of the fact that neither of us has ever had an std. This is a perfect example of why a 12-year-old girl needs to be taught \*\*how \*\*to think, not \*\*what \*\*to think. Hopefully, it’s not too late. ---
**Author:** ![CurtC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ce73a5/32.png) [@CurtC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CurtC)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2003, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-truth-vs-the-bible/207492/50 "2003-10-16T15:31:56Z")
I had a similar issue with my six year old son the other day. We’ve always discussed evolution, how animals are related and how they change over time. We’ve camped out at Dinosaur Valley State Park in Texas and stood in dinosaur tracks in the limestone, and we’ve collected fossilized seashells here in North Texas. I’ve explained how this part of the world used to be under a shallow ocean. He said to me the other day, “Daddy, did you know that all the world used to be under water?” I replied that no, some parts that are now land used to be under water, but there wasn’t ever a time when it was all under water. He said emphatically that he learned all about Noah and the great flood when he attended a church service with his friend recently. He was playing at a friend’s house on Sunday afternoon, and they were going to attend church, and we gave approval for him to go. It’s a Church of Christ by the way. I really didn’t know what to say. He was emphatic that he was right, apparently because he learned it in a big impressive building, so that trumped any info he gets from his old man. My goal is to teach him to think, not to beat the facts into him, so I just let it go. When these things come up, I’ll just prompt him with questions that, when he’s able to piece things together, will allow him to figure out what’s right and not on his own. **Svt4Him** , you should give up on Hovind. If you choose to believe this flood tale, just say it was a miracle. There is no way that you could ever support its happening with science. It’s just too ridiculous. If someone asks how Noah got all those species on a boat, “it was a miracle.” Where’d all the water come from? “It was a miracle.” How did the animals survive together for weeks on a single boat? “It was a miracle.” This answer will get you a lot more respect than positing ludicrous claims of 11 foot humans. By the way, for those of you wanting a reference for the 11 foot humans, google “creation evidence museum”. This wonder of uncritical thinking skills sits just outside the entrance to Dinosaur Valley State Park. ---
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2003, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-truth-vs-the-bible/207492/51 "2003-10-16T15:49:07Z")
I’m certainly no bible scholar, but the position that makes the most sense to me is that you cannot really talk about a single bible. Different parts of it must be read differently. Portions of it are intended to represent actual historical representations. But far more are myth or metaphor. And yet more is poetry. For example, do you speak of the “truth” of the Song of Solomon? Moreover, in my experience, the overwhelming majority of christians acknowledge the need to comport their religion within the realm of modern scientific knowledge to some extent. Your daughter is certainly not too young to begin her personal critical analysis and comparison. ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2003, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-truth-vs-the-bible/207492/52 "2003-10-16T16:36:54Z")
Dinsdale: > [@](#): > > For example, do you speak of the “truth” of the Song of Solomon? As someone who believes in the Torah, I want to point out that the reason myself and other Orthodox Jews do not take the Song of Solomon as a literal event is because _it calls itself a song, up front_. amongst us literalists, there is not a picking and choosing of what we consider to be metaphor/poetry and what we think was real; everything is assumed to be stating facts unless the section in question is prefaced by a statement that what follows is a song, parable, proverb or poem. ---
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2003, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-truth-vs-the-bible/207492/53 "2003-10-16T16:54:02Z")
As little as I know about christianity and the bible in general, I know even less about the Jewish faith. Thank you for the clarification. ---
**Author:** ![More\_Cowbell](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5a626/32.png) [@More\_Cowbell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/More_Cowbell)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2003, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-truth-vs-the-bible/207492/54 "2003-10-16T18:03:25Z")
Check out Creation Evidence Museum cite linked. It’s very eye-opening. Here is a tidbit: “The Creation Evidence Museum has sponsored expeditions to Papua New Guinea which have resulted in eyewitness night sightings of bioluminescent pterosaurs (see Isa.14:29 & 30:6), the most recent being in August 1994 and 1996. The nationals (and missionaries) speak of flying reptiles with wingspans up to 25’ across and those having the macabre habit of scavenging gravesites for food.” Bioluminescent pterosaurs? That’s right, glow-in-the-dark flying dinosaurs! You can’t make this stuff up! Oh wait… ---
**Author:** ![mangeorge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d78d45/32.png) [@mangeorge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mangeorge)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2003, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-truth-vs-the-bible/207492/55 "2003-10-16T23:26:39Z")
I’ve always been pretty condescending towards those who truly believe what the bible (or the Koran, the Torah or the New Teatament for that matter) says. I’m sorry, I know that attitude isn’t polite, but that’s how I felt because it was hard to prove the fallacies of those myths, and they seemed so _sincere_. But now there’s so much evidence that the myths are not true, and I grow impatient. Some of this stuff is hurtful. Somebody above mentioned dietary prohibitions being based on practical reasons. I don’t think so. From what people I’ve talked to have said, and from what I’ve read, you can’t eat pork because God _said_ you can’t eat pork. Simple as that. Which brings us to Loaves and Fishes. Fishes _with_ fins. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-truth-vs-the-bible/207492.md?page=2)