Indeed.
Why on earth should you wait untill she’s 16?
When she starts asking the questions, she’s ready for it.
Just as ready when she was when she asked if Santa really existed.
Haha. Even 12 year olds can figure the Bible is mythology ! I wonder how some so called adults can’t get over it. Some creationists are even top politicians… gawd.
I go for the stimulate critical thinking group... or tell her its a fable to teach people to be good or God will kill them.No, they were not made in the garden. And yes, it was a week. What’s the issue? That God couldn’t make it in a week? How can you not bring God into a debate on the Bible?
No, not two of every animal. But again, I don’t know what the issue is.
Points to Ponder About the Flood and Noah’s Ark
By Dr. Kent Hovind
Second Peter 3:3–8 tells us that people who scoff at the Bible are “willingly ignorant” of the Creation and the Flood. In order to understand science and the Bible, we must not be ignorant of those two great events in Earth’s history.
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Over 500 Flood legends from all parts of the world have been found. Most have similarities to the Genesis account.
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Noah’s ark was built only to float, not to ail anywhere. Many ark scholars believe that the ark was a “barge” shape, not a pointed “boat” shape. This would greatly increase the cargo capacity. Scoffers have pointed out that the largest sailing ships were less than 300 feet because of the problem of twisting and flexing the boat. These ships had giant masts and sails to catch the wind. Noah’s ark needed neither of those and therefore had far less torsional stress.
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Even using the small 18-inch cubit (my height is 6’1" and I have a 21- nch cubit), the ark was large enough to hold all the required animals, people, and food with room to spare.
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The length-to-width ratio of 6 to 1 is what shipbuilders today often use. This is the best ratio for stability in stormy weather.
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The ark may have had a “moon-pool” in the center. The larger ships would have a hole in the center of the bottom of the boat with walls extending up into the ship. There are several reasons for this feature: a) It allowed water to go up into the hole as the ship crested waves. This would be needed to relieve strain on longer ships. b) The rising and lowering water acted as a piston to ump fresh air in and out of the ship. This would prevent the buildup of dangerous gasses from all the animals on board. c) The hole was a great place to dump waste into the ocean without going outside.
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The ark may have had large drogue (anchor) stones suspended over the sides to keep it more stable in rough weather. Many of these tones have been ound in the region where the ark landed.
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Noah lived for 950 years. Many Bible scholars believe the pre-Flood people were much larger than modern man. Skeletons over 11 feet tall have been found. If Noah were taller, his cubit (elbow to fingertip) would have been much larger also. This would make the ark larger by the same ratio.
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God told Noah to bring two of each kind (seven of some), not of each species or variety. Noah had only two of the dog kind, which would include the wolves, coyotes, foxes, mutts, etc. The “kind” grouping is probably closer to our modern family division in taxonomy, and would greatly reduce the number of animals on the ark. Animals have diversified into many varieties in the last 4,400 years since the Flood. This diversification is not anything similar to great claims that the evolutionists teach.
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Noah did not have to get the animals. God brought them to him (Genesis 6:20, “shall come to thee”).
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Only land- welling, air-breathing animals had to be included on the ark (“in which is the breath of life,” Genesis 7:15,22).
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Many animals sleep, hibernate, or become very inactive during bad weather.
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All animals (and people) were vegetarian before and during the Flood according to Genesis 1:20–30 with Genesis 9:3.
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The pre-Flood people were probably much smarter and more advanced than people today. The longer life spans, Adam’s direct contact with God, and the fact that they could glean the wisdom of many generations that were still alive would greatly expand their knowledge base.
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The Bible says that the highest mountains were covered by 15 cubits [20 feet] of water (Genesis 7:20). This is half the height of the ark. The ark was safe from scraping bottom at all times.
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The large mountains, as we have them (today, did not exist until after the Flood when “the mountains arose and the valleys sank down” (Psalm 104:5–9; Genesis 8:3–8).
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There is enough water in the oceans right now to cover the earth 8,000 feet deep if the surface of the earth were smooth.
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Many claim to have seen the ark in recent times in the area in which the Bible says it landed. There are two primary schools of thought about the actual site of the ark. Much energy and time have been expended to prove both views. Some believe the ark is on Mt. Ararat, covered by snow (CBS showed a one-hour special in 1993 about this site). Others believe the ark is seventeen miles south of Mt. Ararat in a valley called “the valley of eight” (eight souls on the ark). The Bible says the ark landed in the “mountains” of Ararat, not necessarily on the mountain itself.
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The continents were not separated until 100–300 years after the Flood (Genesis 10:25). The people and animals had time to migrate anywhere on earth by then.
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The top 3,000 feet of Mt. Everest (26,000 –29,000 feet) is made up of sedimentary rock packed with seashells and other oceandwelling animals.
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Sedimentary rock is found all over the world. Sedimentary rock is formed in water.
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Petrified clams in the closed position (found all over the world) testify to their rapid burial while they were still alive, even on top of Mount Everest.
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Bent rock layers, fossil graveyards, and polystrata fossils are best explained by a Flood.
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People choose to not believe in the Flood because it speaks of the judgment of God on sin (2 Peter 3:3–8). (24:38,39 continued)
Again, I don’t know what the issue is. There are some perfectly nice liars, perfectly nice adulterers, perfectly nice fornicators. As a matter of fact, I was a perfectly nice speeder, but I still have to pay the fine for blowing the stop sign.
Do you have a cite for this?
Again, I am not denying the possible existance of a God.
[/QUOTE]
No, you’re just asking “Has God really said?” Nothing wrong with it, just don’t let the facts confuse you.
Please, mangeore start sooner than 16.
You don’t want to have her end up like that, now do you?
Nothing more to add but I loved this bit
If pigs had wing they could fly too.
Where were they made then? How could Adam have named them all if they weren’t in the garden?
Actually there is a passage which says 7 animals, IIRC.
I would seriously advise you against “citing” Kent Hovind. The man is crazy and fellow creationists don’t even agree with him.
Check out the site and be prepared, because Kent takes quite a beating.
So what? If floods NEVER happened, then I think 500 would be impressive.
“Ark Scholars”?
Do you really think that millions of animals fit inside the ark?
Uh-huh…How did Noah collect all of these animals? Polar bears would have had an especially difficult trip.
The ark may also have been a hovercraft, but I fail to see why we should assume this.
Did the animals gracefully wait in line to go to the bathroom or was Noah running from stall to stall?
Which scholars are these? 11 feet tall? I thought those were supposed to be the Nephilim?
What is a “kind”?
The diversification certainly isn’t what the ‘evolutionists’ teach, as this sort of macroevolution is so quick that we would actually see it.
So they walked thousands of miles? Swam across large bodies of water?
And what, the fresh water fish some how survived? You realize that some animals have very specialized systems which require a specialized habitat.
Which animals are these?
I see, so some of them developed carnivous digestive systems in four thousand years???
:rolleyes:
And you don’t accept evolution because…
Seriously, you really think this man is an expert? He’s appealing to ignorance throughout this entire diatribe!
I could go on, but I fail to see the point. No offense, but you are better off just believing that it was an unexplainable miracle then you are relying on Hovind’s faulty logic.
Does Dr. Hovind have a cite for this? Human skeletons, or at least human-like skeletons?
Kent Hovind talking about willful ignorance? My irony meter (the deluxe model with heavy duty shunts) just exploded in tiny little pieces.
Svt4Him, are you willing to defend Hovind’s points, with evidence, in your own words? If so I can do a point by point refutation, which I actually think would be on topic. If not, it’s a waste of bandwidth.
BTW, did you know that “Dr.” Kent Hovind’s degree came from a diploma mill? See here
Here is a list of “Hovind’s Stumper Questions”, with answers.
Plenty of links debunking Hovind.
Even more.
Don’t trust what he says the man is insane and also a liar.
The issue is that a.) We know for a fact that species were not created simultaneously or separately but evolved through common descent and b.) that this process took hundreds of millions of years, not a week.
One passage says two of every animal, one says seven pairs. It doesn’t matter, there was no global flood and the entire story is clearly mythological. It’s not even original to Genesis but is simply a late variation on an earlier Sumerian myth.
Not only is it impossible to provide evidence that either such event ever occurred it has been conclusively and irrefutably proven that they didn’t occur.
Genesis is taken from older Mesopotamian legends. Some myths may actually have been inspired by local floods. So what? There was no global flood.
All this speculation about how the Ark might have been built is irrelevant for two reasons. Number one, there was no flood, and number two, the Noah story is a late variation which means it would have to be less historical even if we pretend that this story should be taken at all seriously as a historical event. The Gilgamesh version is much older than Genesis and would therfore have more credibility (such as it is) than a variation which was written at least 3000 years later.
Yeah, right. :rolleyes:
And what are the scientific credentials of these “Biblical scholars?” What is their evidence for such a preposterous claim?
No they haven’t.
Good Lord, talk about a specious extropolation. What is the basis for any assertion as to the antedeluvian giantism of the human race?
This is simply biologically wrong. All of the extant species of canines existed long before 4400 years ago. There was no sudden “diversification” of species within the last few thousand years.
So why didn’t God just save all the animals himself? Why did he need a human to do it? If God is going to intervene at all, why not go all the way?
There is ample and irrefutable evidence that carniverous animals existed long before the flood…or before humans, for that matter.
Also, doesn’t Genesis say that Abel was a herder of animals? What was he herding them for if not for meat?
Cite that humans who lived 5000 years ago were either smarter or lived longer? There is no archaeological or anthropological evidence to support either assertion.
This is just nonsense. Do you know the first thing about geology?
The surface of the earth has never been smooth.
There are also plenty of idiots who think they’ve seen Bigfoot or the Loch Ness monster or little green men in UFOs. What does that prove? Anecdotes mean nothing. Satellite imaging of Ararat shows nothing. Call me when you can actually confirm something.
Where are you getting this stuff? Once again, this is complete and utter nonsense. Continental drift has been going on for hundreds of millions of years. It takes tens of millions of years for continents to acheive any significant drift at all. To assert that it happened in just a few hundred years is ludicrous and is thoroughly rebutted by all geological evidence.
The Hymalays were formed by a collision of continents 60 million years ago. sedimentary layers were raised by the collision. There is nothing remarkable about this.
Water is found all over the world.
How does it testify to that?
You really should try to learn something about basic geology. All of these things have much better explanations that a non-existent flood.
People choose to disregard the flood myth because it has been conclusively disproven.
If the mountains were raised during the flood, then how could mud left over from then flood have wound up up there?
Three more things for Svt4Him.
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Any wooden ship the size of the ark would crack open the moment it was launched from the stress. This is not even counting the immense stress from the waves created by the water rushing in from wherever. BTW, if the rain fell from the vapor canopy, the release of the potential energy stored in the water miles high would vaporize everything on Earth.
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I love Hovind claiming that speciation after the flood is not evolution. It is hyper-evolution, faster than that claimed by any scientist. Interesting that no wrtitten records notice this hyper-evolution.
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So, the continents moved hundreds of miles during the time after the flood with no earthquakes and no one on them noticing? Ask a geologist if this is plausible. Wait for him to stop laughing. Bring a lunch.
If you people want to explain all this stuff with goddidit, find. But don’t even pretend it has anything to do with science.
If you believe in god, you must believe that god is responsible for the record in the rocks. This record clearly shows the flood didn’t happen, and that the earth is more than 6,000 years old. You are refusing to believe this because of what the Bible, written by people says. You are basically turning your face from god and towards people like Hovind. Do you think God will appreciate this?
Sorry, mangeorge, but when speaking to a Christian you can’t separate God from the Bible. Christians believe that the purpose of the Bible is to give man a basic understanding of God.
Furthermore, and I know this is a personal question, but are YOU a Christian? If not, do you think it’s wise to discuss weighty matters which you don’t have a full understanding of with a young and impressionable girl who is just starting out on her faith journey? I trust your intent is not to callously derail that journey for her, so perhaps you might consider deferring ALL God related questions she might put to you. I’m certain your erudition can come up with an intellectually honest non-answer which will not threaten the foundations of her faith.
However, seeing that scientific truth is so important to you, I think leading her on a journey of intellectual discovery would be HIGHLY admirable. And, again, should this quest of hers send her ideas that are at odds with Scripture, rather than trying to debunk the Word of God, perhaps the best idea might be to send her to discuss these with her spiritual leader (be it a parent or minister). Equip her fully with scientific facts so that she will be able to hold her own against any condescention.
Then let her make a choice about whether scientific truth is compatible with spiritual truth (maybe even point out that plenty of scientists seem to think so). And be prepared to accept it with full equanimity if she decides against scientific truth.
It is always hard to prove something did NOT happen. I can say no one can prove that Julius Caesar didn’t have 6 toes on his left foot. I have no problem believing that Noah lived 950 years, it really doesn’t matter FOR ME if he lived only 800:D. It can’t be proven wrong, I know this doesn’t make it right nor proves it, but if it is proof some of you want you should be able to show it to.
My knowledge of the chemistry of Jupiter’s atmosphere is as unproveable to me as a non-scientist as the flood…I can be convinced that it is true but proof will still be lacking for 100%.
That doesn’t mean you should (or shouldn’t) believe it, but for a bunch of guys that supposedly don’t want to impose anything and “live-and-let-live” some really are really “preachy”
Good thing I’m a Catholic. I know the Popes did all the bad things that ever happened (execpt when the Illuminati did), even before Jesus was born, and they single-handedly perverted everyhting in the Bible to get money…possibliy for orgies, so I don’t have to worry about the size of the Ark. , they do it for me and I mindlessly follow (like 99.9% when they believe that China’s population in 1 ooo ooo ooo or more; ever verified it or you just believe what you’re told?)
If you believe the story it is simple to see that God could’ve make it happen (that’s why He’s God, He can do that kind of stuff) and may even re-inforce your believes by earlier flood-myths thinking they point to a reality they (the pre-Jews guys) hadn’t really understood and that , first Jews and then Christians, understood it fully. If you think it’s just a nice wacky story, more power to you, man. I promise I won’t preach here my Catholicism and you don’t preach your “whateverelseism” and just have fun.
maybe Creation is hard to believe, but evolution is as well.
as for the ark, have you ever considered these animals or at least some of them could’ve been babies… or even eggs?
as for gays being an abomination, yeah, maybe they’re nice, but every command in the Bible had a logical purpose whether one believes it is divine or not. for example, the reason the jews were told not to eat pork was because they didn’t know how to cook it properly to kill the worms that can grow up to like 9 feet if i remember right in one’s intestines. one of the logical reasons not to be gay is because STDs are transmitted very easily between gay men, and its obviously not very healthy for them even if they don’t get diseases.
Evolution isn’t as hard to believe as quantum
physics. But for both those no one is asking you to believe - just look at the evidence, and the hypotheses that are so well supported to become theories. I don’t believe in evolution, I’m convinced of evolution.
As for babies and eggs - who nursed these babies? Who sat on the eggs? Who took care of the hatchlings? And why doesn’t the Bible talk about eggs? Sheesh, if some creationist clown proposed that Noah loaded lion eggs, you people would buy it hook line and sinker. With all due respect, 12 year old kids are not the only ones needing practice in thinking logically.
This is logical? :rolleyes:
Replace “BELIEVE” with “UNDERSTAND” and maybe we’ll be closer to the actual problem people such yourself and svt4him have.
Oh boy… Wow, just… wow.
As someone else pointed out above:
If you want to believe that ‘god did it’, that’s perfectly fine.
But please, do not pretend that it has anything to do with science. It’s insulting frankly… and not to scientists, but to you. It only shows how ignorant about the world you live in you truly are. Very sad.
Where did STDs come from?
And these monster pork-infesting worms, for that matter?