# The U.K. Is Done. The U.K. Is Also The Canary In The Coal Mine **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [December 20, 2008, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-u-k-is-done-the-u-k-is-also-the-canary-in-the-coal-mine/478097 "2008-12-20T18:43:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2008, 9:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-u-k-is-done-the-u-k-is-also-the-canary-in-the-coal-mine/478097/41 "2008-12-22T09:35:05Z")
> [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](#): > > If such associations exist in the UK, and I’ve certainly never heard of them, then they’re almost certainly an American import. The number of threads posted on the SDMB about HOA and their bizarre restrictions is uncountable. These sorts of associations are virtually unheard of in the UK, whereas I’m under the impression that they’re quite common in America. If you are talking about Housing Associations then you are so unbelievably uninformed that you are disqualified from expressing any sort of opinion on the matter. The Nazi-glorifying user name and right-wing scaremongering data sources confirm the fact. ---
**Author:** ![Huerta88](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/82dd89/32.png) [@Huerta88](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Huerta88)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2008, 1:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-u-k-is-done-the-u-k-is-also-the-canary-in-the-coal-mine/478097/42 "2008-12-22T13:11:17Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > This former limp-wristed pixie is utterly bemused by the idea that political correctness is a British innovation. > > I’m even more bemused by the fact that the OP mocks Britain’s insignificance in the world as currently constituted and then suggests that Britain is a trendsetter among the nations of the “grown-up” world _in the same post_. My post is not only about political correctness (though that is one species of silliness that the Brits seem to have adopted pretty thoroughly), so no need for me to suggest or show that the Brits invented that. Your latter paragraph suggests an unfamiliarity with history and indeed with my OP title. Canaries die before coal miners precisely because they are smaller and less robust. That’s what makes them the warning sign. Ever hear of the fall of the Ottoman Empire (Turkey – the so-called “Sick Man of Europe” and the most decrepit of the old European powers) as a harbinger of WWI? ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2008, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-u-k-is-done-the-u-k-is-also-the-canary-in-the-coal-mine/478097/43 "2008-12-22T13:50:42Z")
> [@Huerta88](#): > > My post is not only about political correctness (though that is one species of silliness that the Brits seem to have adopted pretty thoroughly), so no need for me to suggest or show that the Brits invented that. > > Your latter paragraph suggests an unfamiliarity with history and indeed with my OP title. Canaries die before coal miners precisely because they are smaller and less robust. That’s what makes them the warning sign. Ever hear of the fall of the Ottoman Empire (Turkey – the so-called “Sick Man of Europe” and the most decrepit of the old European powers) as a harbinger of WWI? The Ottoman Empire fell in 1923. You do know what the word ‘harbinger’ means don’t you? Or when WW1 was? Jeez. Go back to Holocaust Denying or whatever it is passes for history amongst your ilk. Or if you are not a Nazi but just a freelance fool change your damn user-name. ---
**Author:** ![sinical\_brit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/48db29/32.png) [@sinical\_brit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sinical_brit)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2008, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-u-k-is-done-the-u-k-is-also-the-canary-in-the-coal-mine/478097/44 "2008-12-22T14:02:11Z")
> [@Huerta88](#): > > My post is not only about political correctness (though that is one species of silliness that the Brits seem to have adopted pretty thoroughly), so no need for me to suggest or show that the Brits invented that. I think you’re talking shite, so yes, yes you do. ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2008, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-u-k-is-done-the-u-k-is-also-the-canary-in-the-coal-mine/478097/45 "2008-12-22T14:31:18Z")
> [@Malacandra](#): > > Native English-English speaker chiming in: Here, also, it has no homophobic connotations. Another native English-English speaker chiming in: It definitely had homophobic connotations when I were a lad. ---
**Author:** ![Dead\_Badger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/848f3c/32.png) [@Dead\_Badger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dead_Badger)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2008, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-u-k-is-done-the-u-k-is-also-the-canary-in-the-coal-mine/478097/46 "2008-12-22T14:46:37Z")
> [@Huerta88](#): > > My post is not only about political correctness (though that is one species of silliness that the Brits seem to have adopted pretty thoroughly), so no need for me to suggest or show that the Brits invented that. How very odd. You appear to be soldiering brazenly on, despite your OP and, ahem, “thesis” having been quite thoroughly shown to be a load of utter cock. Perhaps you should consider addressing your own manifest failings before tackling the fictional problems of an entire nation. You might start with your apparent inability to read even your own sources. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2008, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-u-k-is-done-the-u-k-is-also-the-canary-in-the-coal-mine/478097/47 "2008-12-22T15:09:29Z")
> [@Huerta88](#): > > Your latter paragraph suggests an unfamiliarity with history and indeed with my OP title. Canaries die before coal miners precisely because they are smaller and less robust. That’s what makes them the warning sign. Ever hear of the fall of the Ottoman Empire (Turkey – the so-called “Sick Man of Europe” and the most decrepit of the old European powers) as a harbinger of WWI? Your analysis of my latter paragraph suggests that you can’t read. I didn’t address the canary thing at all- I merely pointed out that you contradicted yourself in your own post. ---
**Author:** ![Huerta88](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/82dd89/32.png) [@Huerta88](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Huerta88)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2008, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-u-k-is-done-the-u-k-is-also-the-canary-in-the-coal-mine/478097/48 "2008-12-22T15:50:17Z")
> [@tagos](#): > > The Ottoman Empire fell in 1923. You do know what the word ‘harbinger’ means don’t you? Or when WW1 was? If you define “fall” as the moment the last sultan turned over the last key, yes. Otherwise most people understand that centuries-old empires fall over a period of decades and that indeed, the Ottomans were sick near unto death in the years leading up to the War. > [@](#): > > Jeez. Go back to Holocaust Denying or whatever it is passes for history amongst your ilk. Way to argue with a point I didn’t make, here or elsewhere. Such a creative and original form of criticism, too. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2008, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-u-k-is-done-the-u-k-is-also-the-canary-in-the-coal-mine/478097/49 "2008-12-22T15:52:06Z")
> [@Huerta88](#): > > Way to argue with a point I didn’t make, here or elsewhere. Such a creative and original form of criticism, too. I believe he’s referring to the 88 in your user name. It’s a common white supremacist/Neo-Nazi shorthand for Hitler (H = 8th letter of the alphabet; HH = Heil Hitler). ---
**Author:** ![Racer1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ee59a6/32.png) [@Racer1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Racer1)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2008, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-u-k-is-done-the-u-k-is-also-the-canary-in-the-coal-mine/478097/50 "2008-12-22T15:55:43Z")
> [@Huerta88](#): > > My post is not only about political correctness (though that is one species of silliness that the Brits seem to have adopted pretty thoroughly), so no need for me to suggest or show that the Brits invented that. > > Your latter paragraph suggests an unfamiliarity with history and indeed with my OP title. Canaries die before coal miners precisely because they are smaller and less robust. That’s what makes them the warning sign. Ever hear of the fall of the Ottoman Empire (Turkey – the so-called “Sick Man of Europe” and the most decrepit of the old European powers) as a harbinger of WWI? I’m not sure if you are serious or not, but if you could point out which particular fears you raised in your OP haven’t been dispelled to your satisfaction, perhaps we can help you out? Broadly speaking, the publications you linked are aimed at a certain audience with the intention of causing sensation or outrage. To this end, they don’t always publish the full facts. Most of these cases (for example, the person demanding Christmas lights were taken down) are one-off nutjobs not conveying the policy of the population or the organisation they claim to represent. Most likely they are now the target of ridicule in their places of work, and probably aren’t invited to the Christmas party. These are isolated cases that are only newsworthy because they are so out of the ordinary. In each case fears are dispelled when you check the facts. You know, like this bit from your link… > [@](#): > > Last night the housing association apologised to Mrs Glenn. It insisted that removing Christmas lights was not part of their policy. > > A spokesman for South Tyneside Council said: “We would like to make it clear that South Tyneside Homes is happy for residents to put up Christmas lights to decorate their homes. > > “The lights bring a bit of festive cheer to everybody and we are delighted to see examples of tenants and leaseholders across the borough taking so much pride in the appearance of their homes.” Think about it for a minute - If our national psyche really was heading in the direction of banning Christmas lights, the papers wouldn’t bother reporting it in outrage because no one would care, would they? ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2008, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-u-k-is-done-the-u-k-is-also-the-canary-in-the-coal-mine/478097/51 "2008-12-22T15:55:49Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > I believe he’s referring to the 88 in your user name. It’s a common white supremacist/Neo-Nazi shorthand for Hitler (H = 8th letter of the alphabet; HH = Heil Hitler). He knows that. He’s been told it a thousand times. ---
**Author:** ![Huerta88](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/82dd89/32.png) [@Huerta88](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Huerta88)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2008, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-u-k-is-done-the-u-k-is-also-the-canary-in-the-coal-mine/478097/52 "2008-12-22T15:55:55Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > I merely pointed out that you contradicted yourself in your own post. You attempted to point it out, but you were wrong. There is nothing in the least contradictory with saying that (1) country X is a spent force; but that (2) country X, precisely because it was a spent force, could well serve as a Petri dish for troublesome trends that could cause mischief elsewhere. ---
**Author:** ![Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/cc9497/32.png) [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capt.Ridley_s_Shooting_Party)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2008, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-u-k-is-done-the-u-k-is-also-the-canary-in-the-coal-mine/478097/53 "2008-12-22T15:57:01Z")
> [@tagos](#): > > If you are talking about Housing Associations then you are so unbelievably uninformed that you are disqualified from expressing any sort of opinion on the matter. The Nazi-glorifying user name and right-wing scaremongering data sources confirm the fact. 😕 Me or **Huerta88**? ---
**Author:** ![Huerta88](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/82dd89/32.png) [@Huerta88](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Huerta88)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2008, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-u-k-is-done-the-u-k-is-also-the-canary-in-the-coal-mine/478097/54 "2008-12-22T16:01:07Z")
> [@tagos](#): > > He knows that. He’s been told it a thousand times. And I’ve repeated a thousand times that I’m not responsible for what some jackasses turn out to do with their racist beliefs UNLESS someone can demonstrate a scintilla of evidence that I’m espousing the same beliefs or had any idea my username overlapped with their obscure symbology. And of course, no one can show that. The “debate” about the “meaning” people purport to find in my handle is old and pointless and the silliest form of Godwinizing imaginable. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2008, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-u-k-is-done-the-u-k-is-also-the-canary-in-the-coal-mine/478097/55 "2008-12-22T16:02:36Z")
> [@Huerta88](#): > > If you define “fall” as the moment the last sultan turned over the last key, yes. Otherwise most people understand that centuries-old empires fall over a period of decades and that indeed, the Ottomans were sick near unto death in the years leading up to the War. > > Way to argue with a point I didn’t make, here or elsewhere. Such a creative and original form of criticism, too. Yes - that’s how ‘fall’ is defined. The word you are mistaking it with is ‘decline’. And nothing about the decline of the Ottoman Empire, or the Austro-Hungarian or Russian for that matter, that was a ‘harbinger’ of anything you allege. And if you don’t want to be considered a Nazi don’t adopt their ‘88’ code. Until that time if it walks, quacks and wears the badge … ---
**Author:** ![Huerta88](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/82dd89/32.png) [@Huerta88](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Huerta88)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2008, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-u-k-is-done-the-u-k-is-also-the-canary-in-the-coal-mine/478097/56 "2008-12-22T16:04:44Z")
> [@Racer1](#): > > Broadly speaking, the publications you linked are aimed at a certain audience with the intention of causing sensation or outrage. To this end, they don’t always publish the full facts. If nothing else (and I’m speaking less to your reasonably thoughtful post than to some of the other bashing of the “right wing rags”), this thread has uncovered a fair degree of elitism and classism against the benighted proles. An interesting question would be if the U.K. is in great shape, why are the “legitimate” papers (per the patricians who have slammed the tabs) so much less popular than the “rags?” Wouldn’t this kind of almost support my notion of decline and decadence? ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2008, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-u-k-is-done-the-u-k-is-also-the-canary-in-the-coal-mine/478097/57 "2008-12-22T16:05:29Z")
> [@Huerta88](#): > > And I’ve repeated a thousand times that I’m not responsible for what some jackasses turn out to do with their racist beliefs UNLESS someone can demonstrate a scintilla of evidence that I’m espousing the same beliefs or had any idea my username overlapped with their obscure symbology. And of course, no one can show that. The “debate” about the “meaning” people purport to find in my handle is old and pointless and the silliest form of Godwinizing imaginable. Tough. It’s not obscure and you are responsible for not changing it. And frankly your lunatic right-wing rantings lend credence. ---
**Author:** ![Huerta88](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/82dd89/32.png) [@Huerta88](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Huerta88)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2008, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-u-k-is-done-the-u-k-is-also-the-canary-in-the-coal-mine/478097/58 "2008-12-22T16:06:04Z")
> [@tagos](#): > > And if you don’t want to be considered a Nazi don’t adopt their ‘88’ code. Until that time if it walks, quacks and wears the badge … Show me one thing in this post – dumbass – that remotely resembles “holocaust denial.” Oh, you can’t? You’re just calling names? Carry on then, dumbass. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2008, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-u-k-is-done-the-u-k-is-also-the-canary-in-the-coal-mine/478097/59 "2008-12-22T16:24:03Z")
> [@Huerta88](#): > > You attempted to point it out, but you were wrong. There is nothing in the least contradictory with saying that (1) country X is a spent force; but that (2) country X, precisely because it was a spent force, could well serve as a Petri dish for troublesome trends that could cause mischief elsewhere. Fine. It’s not just contradictory, it’s also nonsensical. ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2008, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-u-k-is-done-the-u-k-is-also-the-canary-in-the-coal-mine/478097/60 "2008-12-22T16:26:03Z")
> [@Huerta88](#): > > An interesting question would be if the U.K. is in great shape, why are the “legitimate” papers (per the patricians who have slammed the tabs) so much less popular than the “rags?” Wouldn’t this kind of almost support my notion of decline and decadence? Publications that speak to the lowest common denominator are stock-in-trade for pretty much all developed countries. “Highbrow” publications take a back seat everywhere. The above rhetorical questions don’t really support your “thesis” in any way, alas. Particularly not the part that indicates that it is _criticism_ of politically correct behaviour, mythical though its widespread adoption may be, that appeals to the popular imagination, rather than its adoption. Which is it that your thesis rails against? A nation of dumbasses who eschew limp-wristedness, or a nation of limp-wristers? You can’t have it both ways. Decline and decadence? I’m not especially patriotic, and I tend to agree, but you appear to be vaguely right for all the wrong reasons - and very short on details or validity. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-u-k-is-done-the-u-k-is-also-the-canary-in-the-coal-mine/478097.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-u-k-is-done-the-u-k-is-also-the-canary-in-the-coal-mine/478097.md?page=4)