# The U.S. Electoral College - What Should Be Done? **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [October 22, 2018, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-u-s-electoral-college-what-should-be-done/823357 "2018-10-22T22:11:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2018, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-u-s-electoral-college-what-should-be-done/823357/141 "2018-10-26T21:26:04Z")
> [@MattDHat](#): > > So, maybe I’m the last living American who was required to take Civics in HS. As explained to me then, the purpose of the EC was to balance small states interests against large states, especially as it applied to the distribution of the resources collected centrally by the federal government(and before the federal income tax, that really wasn’t all that much, but still a bone of contention). If you flat out use majority vote, the large states will vote for whatever group is going to actively redistribute income most aggressively, because, due to their larger population base, they gain a larger share of the bounty of those funds. Federal programs are proportional to people served, after all. The EC attempts to balance this effect by giving the smaller states disproportionate stature, in order to ensure a more equitable share of the spoils of federal largeness across ALL states. The EC is about states, not people, not voters. Given the left is more given to income redistribution than the right, the (slight) imbalance in popular vote/winner over the large 10 election cycles or so might suggest the EC is actually fulfilling its intended purpose. (the other issue may be the loss of more centrist positions and a move to the extremes in both parties). The biggest by far part of my personal tax burden is federal; (let’s not gt into SS). I’d rather see that distributed as evenly as possible across the entire country then to those few large states with the biggest mouths, voter-wise. That’s a personal opinion; one can argue the larger population needs more help; the counter argument is the larger state has a larger economy and the greater ability to help itself than, say, Vermont. It keeps the biggest states from uniting in a certain political stance and bullying the other states for their lunch money, so to speak. I guess it depends on how you want to define egalitarian; the need of the many poor in big states, or the need of the poor everywhere in the country. I prefer the later alternative, as poor is poor. I can’t claim to agree with some of the outcomes due to the EC, but the long-term function of the EC has to date keep state tax return benefits roughy in balance. The occasional electoral burp seems like a small price to pay for that economic equality of federal funding to states large and small. Did your civics class cover the difference between the legislative and executive branches of government? What you are describing is almost exclusively under the control of the former, not the latter, and the EC relates only to the latter. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2018, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-u-s-electoral-college-what-should-be-done/823357/142 "2018-10-26T21:31:44Z")
“Most of the people get most of the money” isn’t income redistribution. It’s what you get when you _don’t_ have income redistribution. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2018, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-u-s-electoral-college-what-should-be-done/823357/143 "2018-10-26T21:31:52Z")
Hey, he said he was the last living American to take a civics class not the last living American who paid attention in civics class. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2018, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-u-s-electoral-college-what-should-be-done/823357/144 "2018-10-26T21:32:49Z")
I’m starting to think we should collectively chuck this whole civilization thingy and go back to the joys of hunting and gathering… ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2018, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-u-s-electoral-college-what-should-be-done/823357/145 "2018-10-26T21:35:05Z")
> [@XT](#): > > I’m starting to think we should collectively chuck this whole civilization thingy and go back to the joys of hunting and gathering… Do the hunters get the same number of votes as the gatherers? I think we need a compromise so that one group doesn’t dominate the other. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2018, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-u-s-electoral-college-what-should-be-done/823357/146 "2018-10-26T21:40:07Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Do the hunters get the same number of votes as the gatherers? I think we need a compromise so that one group doesn’t dominate the other. The group that starves the least gets to dominate (this season), and the ones who bring in the food get the most votes. Here, have some beads… ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2018, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-u-s-electoral-college-what-should-be-done/823357/147 "2018-10-26T22:25:52Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Well, for one, it’s the time we’re in right now. The laws we have today should reflect the situation today, just as the laws of yesteryear should reflect the situation of yesteryear. Institutions, nations, contracts etc aren’t continuously reformed or renegotiated moment by moment though. Precedent and procedure matter. Are you in favor of a constitutional convention now? What period should they occur? ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2018, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-u-s-electoral-college-what-should-be-done/823357/148 "2018-10-26T23:47:12Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Institutions, nations, contracts etc aren’t continuously reformed or renegotiated moment by moment though. Precedent and procedure matter. Are you in favor of a constitutional convention now? What period should they occur? It has been a couple of centuries. We do have the world’s oldest running constitutional democracy. Most other nations that democratized copied our model, but also made some changes, improvements they saw that would avoid some of the difficulties our v0.110 to v0.127 has encountered. We’re still in beta testing, and some flaws have certainly been uncovered, and only quick fix patches have been applied. It is time for a new version. Learn from not only our own mistakes, but the efforts of others that have copied and expanded upon our model. I do support a constitutional convention to completely overhaul the thing. You ask what period, I ask, if not now, then when? The set up of the distribution of power was a compromise. It wasn’t a founding principle, it wasn’t a self evident truth, it was a political concession from the more powerful and wealthy and populous state towards the smaller poorer state because without it, we’d still be under the articles of confederacy, and those didn’t serve anyone well. We are not in that condition anymore. All the players that negotiated that contract are long gone and buried. All the political alliances that created that contract are forgotten. We are not beholden to the past, we are beholden to the future, and the world we leave for our descendants. The founding fathers didn’t gnash their teeth at the idea of throwing away traditions that no longer served their needs. They not only broke away from Britain, they then went and threw out the contract that they did it under, replacing it with one that they felt better served their needs. They even gave us the tools to update it, not thinking that they were going to get things right on the first try. We should look to their vision of creating a better future, than to look at the past to try to emulate and repeat it. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2018, 2:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-u-s-electoral-college-what-should-be-done/823357/149 "2018-10-27T02:22:01Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > It has been a couple of centuries. We do have the world’s oldest running constitutional democracy. Most other nations that democratized copied our model, but also made some changes, improvements they saw that would avoid some of the difficulties our v0.110 to v0.127 has encountered. We’re still in beta testing, and some flaws have certainly been uncovered, and only quick fix patches have been applied. > > It is time for a new version. Learn from not only our own mistakes, but the efforts of others that have copied and expanded upon our model. I do support a constitutional convention to completely overhaul the thing. > > You ask what period, I ask, if not now, then when? > > The set up of the distribution of power was a compromise. It wasn’t a founding principle, it wasn’t a self evident truth, it was a political concession from the more powerful and wealthy and populous state towards the smaller poorer state because without it, we’d still be under the articles of confederacy, and those didn’t serve anyone well. > > We are not in that condition anymore. All the players that negotiated that contract are long gone and buried. All the political alliances that created that contract are forgotten. We are not beholden to the past, we are beholden to the future, and the world we leave for our descendants. The founding fathers didn’t gnash their teeth at the idea of throwing away traditions that no longer served their needs. They not only broke away from Britain, they then went and threw out the contract that they did it under, replacing it with one that they felt better served their needs. > > They even gave us the tools to update it, not thinking that they were going to get things right on the first try. We should look to their vision of creating a better future, than to look at the past to try to emulate and repeat it. That’s fine by me. We have an amendment process and we also could call another constitutional convention. I’d be very concerned about the 2nd option though. I do disagree that we are not at the very least partially beholden to the past. ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Feldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lord_feldon/32/341_2.png) [@Lord\_Feldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Feldon)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2018, 4:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-u-s-electoral-college-what-should-be-done/823357/150 "2018-10-27T04:07:34Z")
> [@Ashtura](#): > > Okay, let me take something back. If you really are concerned with your vote not counting, don’t move (which is what I would, and could do). Push your state to switch to a Congressional District Method for the electoral college, like Maine. Write letters. Make phone calls. Hell, run for office. Moving to a gerrymandering-based system sounds like a pretty terrible idea that would just increase the distortion. It would have installed Mitt Romney as president in 2012 even though he lost by nearly _four_ points. For it to make more peoples’ votes “count,” there would have to be more people living in close congressional districts than in close states. I don’t think that’s the case. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2018, 5:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-u-s-electoral-college-what-should-be-done/823357/151 "2018-10-27T05:40:40Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > It has been a couple of centuries. We do have the world’s oldest running constitutional democracy. Most other nations that democratized copied our model, but also made some changes, improvements they saw that would avoid some of the difficulties our v0.110 to v0.127 has encountered. We’re still in beta testing, and some flaws have certainly been uncovered, and only quick fix patches have been applied. > > It is time for a new version. Learn from not only our own mistakes, but the efforts of others that have copied and expanded upon our model. I do support a constitutional convention to completely overhaul the thing. > > You ask what period, I ask, if not now, then when? > > The set up of the distribution of power was a compromise. It wasn’t a founding principle, it wasn’t a self evident truth, it was a political concession from the more powerful and wealthy and populous state towards the smaller poorer state because without it, we’d still be under the articles of confederacy, and those didn’t serve anyone well. > > We are not in that condition anymore. All the players that negotiated that contract are long gone and buried. All the political alliances that created that contract are forgotten. We are not beholden to the past, we are beholden to the future, and the world we leave for our descendants. The founding fathers didn’t gnash their teeth at the idea of throwing away traditions that no longer served their needs. They not only broke away from Britain, they then went and threw out the contract that they did it under, replacing it with one that they felt better served their needs. > > They even gave us the tools to update it, not thinking that they were going to get things right on the first try. We should look to their vision of creating a better future, than to look at the past to try to emulate and repeat it. All you need is 38 states to agree with you and you’re all set (I’ll be urging my state not to do so). ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2018, 1:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-u-s-electoral-college-what-should-be-done/823357/152 "2018-10-27T13:18:15Z")
**octopus** , tradition can in fact be a good guide to making decisions. If you’re not sure why Mom always cut the ends off of her pot roasts, but they always came out good, well then, you should cut the ends off of your pot roast, too. If you don’t know why your predecessors did something, then it’s wise to give them the benefit of the doubt and assume that they had a good reason for it. But that isn’t the case here. We know why our ancestors created the Electoral College. Some of their reasons were good ideas that didn’t work, some of their reasons were based on conditions that are now obsolete, and some of their reasons were actively evil. None of their reasons are both good and still relevant. Tradition should have no weight whatsoever, in this case. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2018, 1:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-u-s-electoral-college-what-should-be-done/823357/153 "2018-10-27T13:19:47Z")
Oh, and again, **HurricaneDitka** , we all know how the amendment process works, and other than you, all of us know that we all know that. That’s not what we’re discussing here: There’s little point in discussing that, because we all already know it. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2018, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-u-s-electoral-college-what-should-be-done/823357/154 "2018-10-27T14:46:20Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > **octopus** , tradition can in fact be a good guide to making decisions. If you’re not sure why Mom always cut the ends off of her pot roasts, but they always came out good, well then, you should cut the ends off of your pot roast, too. If you don’t know why your predecessors did something, then it’s wise to give them the benefit of the doubt and assume that they had a good reason for it. > > But that isn’t the case here. We know why our ancestors created the Electoral College. Some of their reasons were good ideas that didn’t work, some of their reasons were based on conditions that are now obsolete, and some of their reasons were actively evil. None of their reasons are both good and still relevant. Tradition should have no weight whatsoever, in this case. What were the reasons that were “good ideas but didn’t work”? ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2018, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-u-s-electoral-college-what-should-be-done/823357/155 "2018-10-27T15:33:07Z")
Off the top of my head, the idea that electors would sit down and wisely decide who should be President. Party politics mostly put the kibosh on that. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2018, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-u-s-electoral-college-what-should-be-done/823357/156 "2018-10-27T16:24:43Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > That’s fine by me. We have an amendment process and we also could call another constitutional convention. I’d be very concerned about the 2nd option though. I wouldn’t be. It would still need to be ratified, so it’s not like we can just scribble some stuff with a crayon and call it a day. We can make something better > [@](#): > > I do disagree that we are not at the very least partially beholden to the past. I completely disagree with that. There is no one in the past who will be affected in the slightest by decisions that we make today. No matter whether we become a communist nation, an anarchist nation, a capitalistic utopia or dystopia, will George Washington’s life be in any way, shape, or form, impacted. We owe him nothing. The past is simply a repository of knowledge, the empirical results of many different experiments of governance. We can learn from the past, we can try to replicate successes and avoid failures, but we do not need to “honor” the past. The past doesn’t care. People in the future, however, that’s another story. They will be helped or harmed by the decisions that we make today. I say that we have far more obligation to improve the lives of those who come after us than to try to make a bunch of dead people proud. > [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > All you need is 38 states to agree with you and you’re all set (I’ll be urging my state not to do so). Is that just a blanket statement, without any knowledge whatsoever as to what sort of changes would be made, even if they would actually end up being a benefit to yourself, or is that a blanket statement that you do not believe that any changes could possibly be of benefit to yourself? I disagree either way, finding the first position to be self-destructively stubborn, and the second to be obtusely ignorant. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2018, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-u-s-electoral-college-what-should-be-done/823357/157 "2018-10-27T21:11:14Z")
> [@](#): > > Quoth **John Mace** : > > What were the reasons that were “good ideas but didn’t work”? The electoral college was supposed to prevent an unqualified populist demagogue from getting into power. Which is a noble goal. But we’ve just seen how effective they were at that. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2018, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-u-s-electoral-college-what-should-be-done/823357/158 "2018-10-28T00:02:15Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > The electoral college was supposed to prevent an unqualified populist demagogue from getting into power. I don’t think that is quite correct. It wasn’t to prevent someone like that from “getting into power”, it was to prevent that type of person being elected, directly, by the people. It was an argument against electing the president by popular vote. Is it a good idea to have a buffer between the popular vote and the election of the president? I think if the EC were to overturn an election, it would be worse for the country than the election of someone like Trump. And I would say that whether someone like Trump got the most total votes in the election or if that person’s opponent got more total votes. In short, I think the idea is not a good one, no matter how we look it at. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2018, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-u-s-electoral-college-what-should-be-done/823357/159 "2018-10-28T01:29:37Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > … Is that just a blanket statement, without any knowledge whatsoever as to what sort of changes would be made, even if they would actually end up being a benefit to yourself, or is that a blanket statement that you do not believe that any changes could possibly be of benefit to yourself? … I’m skeptical that America in 2018 would make a new Constitution that protects my interests or serves the country better than our current one. If, against my wishes, a Constitutional convention we’re called and, to my surprise, the product we’re an improvement, I would happily support it. I consider that a remote enough possibility and the danger of something idiotic but popular being approved instead serious enough that I oppose calling a convention. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2018, 12:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-u-s-electoral-college-what-should-be-done/823357/160 "2018-10-28T12:18:36Z")
**John Mace** , why would it make any difference whether an unqualified populist were elected directly or indirectly? But in any event, whether it would be a good thing or not, it looks like we agree that it doesn’t work. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-u-s-electoral-college-what-should-be-done/823357.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-u-s-electoral-college-what-should-be-done/823357.md?page=9)